Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#41
It doesn't solve the problem with the pupillo ...

Curiously I found this article, which uses the word "pupillo" ... I don't understand the sentence ...

https://www.piedicavallo.com/Sito%20Pro ... rocchi.pdf

"Non tutti i giocatori erano cosi ferrati in cultura classica come il suo pupillo e quindi qualche istruzione supplementare non guastava."

The English translation makes this of it.
"Not all players were as skilled in classical culture as his protégé and therefore some additional instruction did not hurt."

Possibly this is a sentence of Marziano?

The Italian article ...
https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/read/ ... linverni/3
... used this sentence:
"Marziano mori nel 1425, lasciando il suo pupillo a Pietro Lapini da Montacino ..."
... which I interpreted as a situation, in which Marziano had an unknown pupillo (German tanslation: "Mündel", which is a sort of a special juristic relation to an educator).
As I understand it now, the unknown pupillo is just Filippo Maria himself, who curiously is addressed as the pupillo of Marziano first and then as pupillo of Pietro Lapini.
So it's more a less not a really new information. I was just fooled by the German "Mündel". Difficult birth.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#42
So I think, that some writers interpret, that Pietro Lapini replaced the person Marziano da Tortona in some of his functions, which possibly might be a correct statement.
For Pietro Lapini I assume, that he was involved in the council of Pavia/Siena in 1423/24, possibly in an important function.

Council of Pavia/Siena
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Siena
The Council in Pavia (inaugurated on 23 April 1423,) was naturally a high event for Filippo Maria, which demonstrates his high function in this period in the general politics of the time. Unluckily a plague broke out, and the council was soon moved to Siena. In Siena the opening session was done 6th of November 1423. The council was quickly finished ..."On 19 February 1424, Basel was selected as the place of the next Council and the Council dissolved itself the following day (the decree published 7 March)".
From this we learn for the situation of Pavia (and also for Abbiategrosso nearby), that there was a plague in the region in 1423.

"In 1399/ 1400, the Visconti dukes of Milan appointed a single administrator to combat plague. By 1424, a commissioner was enacting plague ordinances in the duke's name ... "
https://books.google.de/books?id=5KtDfv ... ti&f=false
The situation seems to be not completely solved in 1424.

For Pietro Lapini we have, that he arrived in Milan in 1418 ...
PIETRO da Montalcino (Pietro Lapini da Montalcino). – Nato da Bernardo di Montalcino nell’ultimo trentennio del Trecento, nel 1401 esercitava la professione medica a Montalcino e, nel febbraio del 1406, insegnava presso lo Studium di Perugia.

Docente all’Università di Siena fra il 1407 e il 1409, nel 1413 si recò in qualità di medico in Francia presso la corte di re Ludovico d’Angiò. In un documento del 25 agosto 1414 Pietro Lapini è attestato come medico dell’antipapa Giovanni XXIII, che successivamente seguì a Costanza per i lavori del Concilio e, dopo la deposizione di questi, tornò in patria. Nel 1415 fu tra i compilatori degli Statuti del Comune di Montalcino. Ottenne poi da parte del Comune di Siena il consenso a trasferirsi alla corte del re di Svezia e Norvegia Enrico di Pomerania, ma non esistono prove di un suo soggiorno al Nord.

Nel 1418 da Pietro da Montalcino e Giovanna dei Marruzzi nacque il piccolo Bernardo. Quello stesso anno coincise con la chiamata su incarico del duca di Milano Filippo Maria Visconti presso lo Studium pavese, dove insegnò medicina e astrologia fino al 1428, ottenendo anche l’elezione come priore nel Collegio dei medici, provvedimento del tutto straordinario, in quanto in precedenza l’accesso a tale carica era stato precluso ai forestieri
In 1414/1415 he worked as physician for Pope Giovanni XXIII, who had then to retire in Constance, which naturally means, that Pietro had experience with the council scene and likely knew some other persons with council experience. In 1418 he appeared in Milan and he might then have been attracted by the condition, that the new Pope reappeared with his large delegation to Italy from Constance in Milan in summer 1418 ... together with the Manilius manuscript, which is of interest in our topic "Michelino deck".
As a physician Pietro had a natural relation to astrology and this might have made him attractive to Filippo Maria, who loved astrologers. Btw: the Manilius ist an astrology book, one shouldn't overlook that.
In 1423 and before Pietro Lapini should have been involved in the preparation of the council in Pavia (he was the man with council experience), likely he was of much importance then. Likely it was also of importance, that he had experiences outside of Italy before. However, the plague arrived and all connected hopes, what could have happened in Pavia, vanished quickly.
We know, that the council in Ferrara was of big importance for the Este and the council of Florence was of even more importance for the Medici and Florence.

The council moved to Siena. Pietro Lapini was known in Siena and he had his home in the region. It's natural to suspect, that Filippo Maria did send him to accompany the delegates to have an eye on the development. However, a full confirmation for his presence there is still missing.

**************

Just this bit of information ...

"Or were the priests outsiders sent to officiate at services in the alien world of the mountains, as was Gentile Sermini's friend Ser Cecco da Perugia in Sermini's story about mountain life and customs in Monte Amiata during the plague of 1424? "
https://books.google.de/books?id=imXDkZ ... ia&f=false

... but I need a pause.
Monte Amiata is about 10 km south from Montalcino (where Lapini did come from) and Montalcino is 30 km south of Siena. And Ser Cecco da Perugia might have been a youth friend from Lapini's earlier studies in Perugia (1406).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#44
You have improved the date of death in the case of Marziano and that's fine. This gives a new view on that, what might have happened in the late period of the time between 1418-1425 (the plausible time, when Marziano wrote the work, that you translated).
The new Marziano date (25 July 1425) is close to the day , when Carlo Malatesta was made prisoner and to the time, when he was present in Abbiategrasso.

Filippo Maria was generally a difficult man, but in 2 situations he is described as unusual happy, once with Carlo Malatesta in 1424 and then also with Alfonso d'Aragon in 1435. In 1435 they played with cards, in 1424 we don't know, but we know of a card deck, which might have been produced "around this time", well, the Michelino deck.
The Malatesta family has, beside Viscconti/Sforza and the d'Este, some playing card notes in our collection.

1. Parisina Malatesta has a few playing card notes in Ferrara (1422-24). She lived in her youth in the castle of Carlo Malatesta in Rimini
2. Sigismondo Malatesta (1441, 1452) ... reigned since 1432 in Rimini
3. A paper register containing a will (29 February 1432) and inventory (16 August 1432) of Isabella Gonzaga Malatesta (1463? - 1432) notes "tre gioghi de carte grande" between other things of minor value in a chest. She was the wife of Carlo Malatesta, naturally in Rimini.
4. Carlo Malatesta himself, Lord of Rimini, was in Constance in 1415 ... with some security there was enough opportunity to play with cards.

Under these conditions it makes sense to ask the question, if the presence of Carlo Malatesta has something to do with the Michelino deck production. For instance, if Marziano had opportunity to be for some time in Abbiategrosso.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#45
Huck wrote:
26 Oct 2019, 21:36
It doesn't solve the problem with the pupillo ...

...

The Italian article ...
https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/read/ ... linverni/3
... used this sentence:
"Marziano mori nel 1425, lasciando il suo pupillo a Pietro Lapini da Montacino ..."
... which I interpreted as a situation, in which Marziano had an unknown pupillo (German tanslation: "Mündel", which is a sort of a special juristic relation to an educator).
As I understand it now, the unknown pupillo is just Filippo Maria himself, who curiously is addressed as the pupillo of Marziano first and then as pupillo of Pietro Lapini.
So it's more a less not a really new information. I was just fooled by the German "Mündel". Difficult birth.
Is it possible that pupillo had alternate meanings, possibly "orphan", as derived from the Latin pupillus? In Leon Battista Alberti's Intercenales (Dinner pieces), one of his small works there is called Pupillus (The orphan), a bitter autobiographical complaint. A student or protege is much like an orphan in being attached to an adult who is not one's parent, so there are double-entendre possibilities, especially if one is both. Pure speculation, but perhaps a bastard son of Marziano? Alberti was himself a bastard who was no longer looked after properly by his family once his father died. In contrast to Alberti's fate, Marziano could have made arrangements for a fellow humanist to raise and educate a bastard of his after he had died; this would also explain the lack of such a child in the Rampini genealogy. Bastardy was of course commonplace.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#46
The "pupil" here is Filippo Maria Visconti. Marziano was never one of his physicians. This article is not to be taken as a reliable source for Marziano.

La quantità di medici-astrologi che ebbe al suo servizio è impressionante. Si alternavano al suo capezzale e al suo fianco, durante tutta la giornata, spesso anche in coppia, perché il duca continuò per tutta la vita ad essere molto diffidente e a temere attentati e congiure. Quasi tutti furono alchimisti (vista l’autentica fobia che il duca aveva per i veleni…), moltissimi studiosi insigni, professori allo Studio di Pavia. Come Marziano da Tortona, figura esemplare di medico e di pedagogo, oltre che di astrologo : Marziano morì nel 1425, lasciando il suo pupillo a Pietro Lapini da Montalcino, che era stato medico dell’anti-papa Giovanni XXIII, e che per Filippo Maria svolse anche missioni diplomatiche, insegnando a Pavia.


The number of doctors-astrologists he had at his service is impressive. They alternated at his bedside and at his side throughout the day, often in pairs, because the Duke continued throughout his life to be very wary and to fear attacks and conspiracies. Almost all of them were alchemists (given the authentic phobia that the Duke had for poisons...), many distinguished scholars, professors at the Studio of Pavia. Like Marziano da Tortona, an exemplary figure of doctor and pedagogue, as well as astrologer: Marziano died in 1425, leaving his pupil to Pietro Lapini da Montalcino, who had been a doctor of the anti-pope Giovanni XXIII, and who for Filippo Maria also carried out diplomatic missions, teaching in Pavia.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#47
Huck wrote:
27 Oct 2019, 18:43

1. Parisina Malatesta has a few playing card notes in Ferrara (1422-24). She lived in her youth in the castle of Carlo Malatesta in Rimini
2. Sigismondo Malatesta (1441, 1452) ... reigned since 1432 in Rimini
3. A paper register containing a will (29 February 1432) and inventory (16 August 1432) of Isabella Gonzaga Malatesta (1463? - 1432) notes "tre gioghi de carte grande" between other things of minor value in a chest. She was the wife of Carlo Malatesta, naturally in Rimini.
4. Carlo Malatesta himself, Lord of Rimini, was in Constance in 1415 ... with some security there was enough opportunity to play with cards.

Under these conditions it makes sense to ask the question, if the presence of Carlo Malatesta has something to do with the Michelino deck production. For instance, if Marziano had opportunity to be for some time in Abbiategrosso.
Okay, that's some potential relevance to make informed speculations with. But what does Pietro Lapini have to do with it?

Carlo Malatesta was close to Gregory XII, acted as a diplomat. Marziano was close to Gregory XII until early 1409, it would seem. Malatesta stayed on longer, until he abdicated the papacy in Gregory's name in 1415. But it is natural to assume Marziano and Carlo knew each other. Carlo changed sides frequently, but it was gentleman's wars in those days; he negotiated his way out. He probably did not need Marziano's help.

There is no way to know if Marziano went to Abbiategrasso, or if his card game was used there. We don't know when Michelino da Besozzo painted it; it could have been long after Marziano's death. But it is natural to assume that Filippo wanted it made right away, so we can consider deck and book to be contemporary productions, circa 1420.

Isabella Gonzaga Malatesta had three sets of large cards, that is very interesting. Can you give me a link to the inventory? Since her husband had been to Germany, maybe we can assume he bought something like the Hunting decks back, at least one of them. Perhaps this is circumstantial evidence of these kinds of cards in Italy at the time.

Yesterday I thought of some evidence that is consistent with the ludus triumphorum not being known yet in 1435-40, at least south in Naples. Isabelle of Lorraine arrived in Naples on October 18, 1435. She stayed there continuously until August of 1440. Much of that time was peaceful for her and the city, plenty of time to play cards. We know that she liked cards and Italian things, since Scipio Caraffa said so when met with Marcello in 1449.

Since Scipio said Isabelle would like these triumph cards, it seems she did not have them in Provence. So, since she had been almost five years in Naples, it is safe to assume this game was not known there yet by 1440. This conclusion is unremarkable, since the earliest reference to the game in Naples is still only in 1473.

But it is more remarkable that René himself spent the summer, July, August, and early September 1442 in Florence, when we know that the game existed and was known there. But René did not bring Isabelle a pack of Triumph cards on his return to Provence. So what can we make of that? Maybe René was too busy to play cards, or maybe he was not much of a card-player himself and took no notice of such games. This could be part of the reason why Marcello addressed his gift to Isabelle, and not to René himself, in 1449.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#48
Another thing to remember regarding the possibility of Marziano having been to Abbiategrasso, is that he served primarily as a witness to different kinds of acts, and he is always named among others of honour and reputation. So in 1412-13 we have him helping Filippo regain control of the duchy, so he is named with others in acts of fealty and feudal grants. We find him also in Florence and Genoa (in 1422), always with others, as a man of importance named as secretary or counsellor of Filippo Maria. Decembrio says he read Dante with Filippo, and Petrarch and Livy are implied as well. Marcello says he was an astrologer, something otherwise not said of him, in either Decembrio or Barzizza. He was also always working in connection with the Church, as his title with Gregory XII says, and in the last attestation of his life where he is the episcopal vicar of Tortona.

It is hard to know when exactly he began with Filippo Maria. Decembrio says that during Giovanni Maria's rule of Milan, Filippo just lived a life of hunting and leisure in Pavia. Facino Cane took the city a day or two before Christmas in 1410, and Decembrio says that after that Filippo became impoverished and conducted his life like a private person (Ianziti's translation of chapter 7). Was Marziano there immediately after he left Gregory XII's service? We don't know when any of that happened. But in 1412, he is right there, helping Filippo like an old friend. In Tortona, February 1409, we know he is named one of the Ghibelline league "anziani." What are the details of what this league did, and what was the elders' role in it? Maybe this would give us some hint as to how he came to be a trusted man for Filippo when he came to reclaim the duchy. I.e. the elders might have been men of deep connections to the towns, who could create networks to prevent siege or war when the time came. Filippo certainly gained easy control of what Gian Maria had lost.

But I don't get the sense that Marziano was "teaching" Filippo in 1409 to 1412. That could easily be a misleading impression, of course. Tortona and Pavia are close, so maybe he was teaching in Pavia, and of course one of the biggest libraries in Europe was in the castle.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#49
Ross,
you requested the source about the wife of Carlo Malatesta:
Umberto Padovani and Angelo Milano in IPCS 34/3, p. 205 ff. (2006) report early documents about playing cards in Mantova, mostly in context of the Gonzaga family.
My report to the article: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=762#p10876

There is a last will (29.2.1432) and a connected inventory (16.8.1432) from Isabetta or Elisabetta. The objects were in the palace of "Galeotto Roberto". This should be ...
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeotto_ ... _Malatesta
, older brother of Sigismondo.
... who died very soon after the date of the inventory, 20 years old. I remember, that he had a very strange biography. Strange ideas about sexuality connected with an attempt to make him a saint.

Beside other items there are "tre gioghi carte grande" (there is footnote after this: ASMn, Archivio Gonzaga, b. 333, c. 44v, and after this in round brackets "p. 219")
Possibly p. 219 means page 219 of the inventory ... or it is a number of this entry ?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#50
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
28 Oct 2019, 07:35
The "pupil" here is Filippo Maria Visconti. Marziano was never one of his physicians. This article is not to be taken as a reliable source for Marziano.
[me: thanks for the correction - should have read the whole thread!]
....
The number of doctors-astrologists he had at his service is impressive.
Although a bit more focused on Sforza's sons for whom there are more records (of course Visconti's records went up in smoke for the most part), did you ever get a hold of this work: Monica Azzolini, The Duke and the Stars: Astrology and Politics in Renaissance Milan, Harvard University Press, Feb 11, 2013
Spends a good deal on Visconti early on as well as his library in Pavia for astrological texts. Does make me wonder why Marziano would have made up a game in this astrological environment but does not really play up the astral associations of the seven relevant gods. The answer must be the M. Capella source of the 16 divisions of the sky (ultimately based on Etruscan divination), reconnected to Ovidian myths - it seems Marziano was trying to present an archaic "Golden Age" proto-history of the cosmos and gods before astrology came to the fore (perhaps with the odd notion in understanding the gods' primal nature/impulses one could better understand the astrological ramifications).

Probably neither here nor there, but there is a strong Florentine connection to Carlo Malatesta as well (and of course his ultimate successor, Sigismondo): Bruni was hosted by Carlo Malatesta in Rimini (I believe) early in his career and Bruni subsequently always held Carlo up as an exemplary knight (effusive praise for him in his History of Florence). Not long after Marziano, Bruni was even writing to Carlo on behalf of the Medici in 1429 (in connection with Florence's sagging campaign against Lucca):
Image
Bruni and C. Malatesta.JPG
(127.69 KiB) Not downloaded yet
From James Hankins, Humanism and Platonism in the Italian Renaissance: Humanism, I, 2003.

Having said all that, Carlo was infamous among the literati for having allowed a statue of Virgil in Mantua to be thrown into the local river (there during some Gonzaga "interregnum" period), so how likely is he to have been interested in a card game about gods? Bruni merely admired his virtus (a paragon reminiscent of Roman triumphators), not his lacking humanist interest. Carlos was just "right place, right time" but wrong man, in my opinion.

Finally, it looks like this long overdue book is available: Lives of the Milanese Tyrants, Pier Candido Decembrio, Translated by Gary Ianziti
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php ... 0674987524

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