Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#361
i suppose my guess for why he chose birds over any other class of animal is that the eagle and columba/turtur were already heraldic for Visconti, so it forced the last one to be a bird too. Juno suggests a peacock, but, for the symbolic reasons you have already suggested, Phaeded, he went with a phoenix, with a unique take on the symbolism.

It is also not implausible that Filippo Maria hated peacocks, given the noise they make in their mating season, which can be at any time. Marziano does mention the "noisy bird."
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#362
Huck wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 09:16
Phaeded wrote
While Henry is in Milan (before dying within the year at his siege of Siena) he and his knights make vows on a bird (celebrated in a poem at least and tied into a genre that continued to take off through the trecento).
There were 2 poems about 2 different birds, both in context of the emperor crowning and vows. Sparrow-hawk (Épervier d'Europe) and blue peafowl (paon bleu).
Yes, I'm getting to that. :-)

Dark-skinned Venus, Aeneas' red hair

#363
In the Saint Petersburgh Semideus manuscript, Filippo Maria's lineage (beginning with Jupiter emerging from the mouth of a dragon of some kind, which may be his father Saturn) shows Venus with dark skin and blond hair, while Aeneas is shown with red hair. Fourteen of the Visconti line before Filippo Maria, starting with Fulcus Comes and ending with Iohannes Galeaz, are shown blond (some are bearded).


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... detail.jpg (click for larger)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... etail2.jpg

D. M. (Daniel Meredith) Bueno de Mesquita, Giangaleazzo Visconti, Duke of Milan (1351-1402) (1941), says on page 12
"No pictorial representation of Giangaleazzo in his youth has survived; but we are told that he was tall, well built, and strikingly handsome. He had the reddish hair of the Visconti, and he probably already wore the short, pointed beard which is made familiar to us in later representations."
Bueno de Mesquita does not note any other examples of the generalization. Aeneas, just above Venus in the genealogy, is shown with red hair. Is this trying to show that the Visconti inherited their "reddish hair" from Venus and Aeneas?

But more striking in the genealogy is Venus' dark complexion, and vibrant blond hair.

Does anyone know of medieval precedent for a black Venus?
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#365
Blond hair in Italy (nowadays) ...
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Generally black hair is reported to be genetic dominant . So one may calculate, that in the time of the langobardic invasion there were more blond persons in Italy than nowadays. Likely the langobardic nobility had more inter-marriages and so kept more blond hair than the common Italian population. Beside that there are reported 15th century technologies to have artificial blond hair.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#366
Thanks for that data, Huck.

I have a Franco-Italian friend, last name Albanese, who has a little Sicilian background, but he is tall and has light, curly hair, like all his siblings. He says "Northern Italy is Germany." But he is definitely more Germanic than Sicilian or Calabrian.

Yes, the Visconti traced themselves to the Lombards, and are always portrayed with blond hair. Or "reddish-blond." Their attested genealogy does earliest place them in the hills above Lago Maggiore, now in Switzerland.

What I can't find is any precedent for Aeneas with red hair, or Venus as dark-skinned. Michelino makes Venus a blushing white girl (with blond hair of course), and Aeneas is uncoloured, like a coin or cameo on a medallion, like all of the rest of the genealogy until Stefano Visconti, on the last page. Giangaleazzo's hair on that page is more light brown than blond, but it could be an effect of the reproduction.


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... yfinal.jpg

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f36.image
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Re: Dark-skinned Venus, Aeneas' red hair

#367
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 18:01
In the Saint Petersburgh Semideus manuscript, Filippo Maria's lineage (beginning with Jupiter emerging from the mouth of a dragon of some kind, which may be his father Saturn) shows Venus with dark skin and blond hair, while Aeneas is shown with red hair. Fourteen of the Visconti line before Filippo Maria, starting with Fulcus Comes and ending with Iohannes Galeaz, are shown blond (some are bearded).


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... detail.jpg (click for larger)
I'm puzzled by the picture ... I can identify the black-blond Venus and I see a written "Jupiter" below Venus related to another figure (indeed difficult to assume an "Aeneas"). In your description Jupiter is on top.

I detect this ...
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... but this is another manuscript.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#369
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I recognize Venus and Jupiter. If my reading is correct, then it is not identical to the other list.
We have the other list here: http://trionfi.com/visconti-genealogy
IVPITER REX
1. Anchises------------Venus
2. Eneas Rex
3. Ascanius Rex
4. Anglus Primus Rex
5. Anlgus Iunior Rex
6. Ascanius Rex (Rex Angler e Mediolani)
7. Abida Rex
8. Sisoch Rex
9. Iulus Rex
10. Pucentius Rex
11. Elimach Rex
12. Gemebundus Rex
13. Albanicus Rex
14. Astatius Rex
15. Fallaramundus Rex
16. Elimach Rex
17. Rechius Rex
18. Bellonesu Rex
19. Bruniscendus Rex
20. Briennius Rex
21. Bruniscendus Rex
22. Agates Rex
23. Rutilaus Rex
24. Fallaramundus Rex
25. Beldomarus Rex
(or Bridomarus - unclear on microfilm)
26. Lutus Rex
27. Ubertus Vicecomes
28. Maximanus Rex
29. Milo Rex
30. Rolandus Rex
31. Milo Rex
32. Alienus Rex
33. Galvaneus Comes
34. Perideus Rex
35. Rachis Rex
36. Agistulfus Rex
37. Desiderius Rex
38. Bernardus Comes
39. Guido Comes
40. Berengarius Imperator
41. Ugo Imperator
42. Berengarius Imperator
43. Adebertus Imperator
44. Atto Comes
45. Fulcus Comes
46. Obito Comes
47. Fatius Comes
48. Heriprandus Vicecomes (Eriprandus, Vicecomes=Visconti)
49. Otto Vicecomes
50. Andreas Vicecomes
51. Galvaneus Vicecomes
52. Ubertus Vicecomes
53. Obizo Vicecomes (Obizzo)
54. Tibaldus Vicecomes (Teobald, Theobald)
55. Matheus Vicecomes (Matteo)
56. Stephanus Vicecomes (Stefano)
58. Galeas Vicecomes (Galeazzo)
59. Iohannes Galeas Dux (Gian Galeazzo)
60a. Iohannes Maria Anglus Dux Mediolani (Milan) et Comes Anglie
60b. Philippus Maria Comes Papie (Pavia)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#370
Who must be between Venus and Ascanius?

You know it says "Eneas," but you're just fooling around.


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... etaila.jpg

But seriously, see Jörg W. Busch, Die Mailänder Geschichtsschreibung zwischen Arnulf und Galvaneus Flamma : die Beschäftigung mit der Vergangenheit im Umfeld einer oberitalienischen Kommune vom späten 11. bis zum frühen 14. Jahrhundert
https://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de/d ... 00001.html

especially Übersicht 11 on page 232, for the evolution of the genealogy (actually not an evolution over much time, but just the genealogy as it appears chronologically in a sequence of connected texts, sometimes by the same author, Galvano Fiamma).

But you don't even have to do that. Just look at the names Sacco himself gives in the Semideus, shown in this post (the "page 93" snippet)-
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1422&hilit=semideu ... 240#p21996

Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Eneas, Aschanius, Anglus
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