Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#331
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 18:36
Excellent observations and insights, Phaeded. Thank you.

I too thought Meiss and Kirsch were pretty lazy in their interpretation of the child stabbing the lion. It is obviously redolent with specific symbolism. One thought that occurred to (not to disregard yours, but just to put it out there) is that it might be topical, i.e. it might date the manuscript to the wars with Venice, so only as early as 1424. But maybe that is too topical an interpretation.

Also, I must have overlooked your interpretation of the sun-face held by the cherub in the card; I really like it.

I'll have to consider your views on the virtues as models for the "good" heroes.
Given my interpretation of the lion on the PMB Strength and PMB King of Swords' shield, I was always drawn to an interpretation of the lion as related to Venice, but it just never seemed quite right - who exactly is that caped child (surely not Filippo, depicted as a grown man across the page)? Given the presence of God Himself on this leaf, any veering away from a religious interpretation into the purely political would seem extremely dubious. The cape's red cord could be meant to be coral (Christ's blood/passion) and the cape itself is gold, fitting of a "king", so I think we have to see this image as at least prefiguring (the primary scene is Eden) the future arrival of the Savior (born of the second/new "Eve") and His banishment of vice/sin. I may have edit-added this detail after you replied - but look at that goofy/smug smile on the lion - it has to be indicative of Pride. Otherwise what has Eve's guilt got to do with conquering one's enemies? Instead look at the rather extraordinary sequence of leaves pertaining to the conquering of Jericho, LF129v - which features the Cardinal virtues in the militant aspect of conquering vices - through LF132v, which rather does suitably pertain to the conquering of enemies (thus no Theologicals or Humility). And Prudence, the virtue of governing, is now in the top spot of LF132v, not Faith, as was the case in LF11v, the "Celestial Court" image analyzed above.

Really odd for Filippo to link himself with Humility (especially when its significance was waning in the quattrocento), but when considered as the root of all the virtues, then a symbol of humility could be shorthand for Virtue in general. Belbello was not going to cram all 12 virtues into the pendant on this leaf and indeed, dei Grassi didn't even do that for Giangaleazzo for any of his leaves. And the context here is sin - Original Sin - Humility is appropriate as no one is without that flaw, including our 'semideus' Filippo.

Added - this just came to me with an "of course": why the child is 'caped', again in a prefiguring sense - central to Christ's passion - Ecce Homo (could anything else speak more succinctly to the virtue of humility?):

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Also added: Re. "interpretation of the sun-face held by the cherub in the card" (PMB Sun as fulfilling the Ambrosian Republic neglected "funeral rites" for Filippo):

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Ode IV.1 funeral rites.JPG
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#332
Such good stuff. Sorry it's so late here...

But not for you. I remembered that David killed a lion too, in I Samuel 17:34-36. I wondered how it was shown in iconography - ever with a weapon, or always like Samson, by sheer strength with bare hands?

https://digital.library.pitt.edu/island ... AVE.N024.1

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/464375
(7th century Byzantine; holding him the same way, using a club to strike)

It's going to take some looking, but that is one possible allusion.

There is also the convention of the Guelph party as a Lion, and the Ghibelline as Eagle (Imperial). It could be interpreted as Filippo Maria's assistance (mostly symbolic) against Guelph incursions into the Pavese and Tortonese while he was Count of Pavia. Or just to his having rooted out the last strongholds of Guelph resistance in the duchy.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#333
Phaeded, here is the link to the Biblioteca Angelo Mai in Bergamo, the copybook of Giovannino de' Grassi -
https://www.bdl.servizirl.it/vufind/Rec ... GETTO-2411

Click on "Sfoglia."

Can you see it? All I get are blank pages. I tried to change settings to allow Flash and anything else that might be hampering me, but still nothing. When I download the PDF, it is only a terrible black and white. When I say terrible, I mean that you can see nearly nothing, only some black lines here and there.

I've decided I need to make my own version of Michelino's deck. I'm not a painter, but I can draw decently, so I'll start there. I have Michelino for eagles and doves, even peacocks for Juno, but I don't have a phoenix (and neither gives me a dolphin for Neptune, but most of the other animals are in one or both). I wondered if Giovannino might have one somewhere, if you have seen it.

i want to go for the lines and aspect of the international gothic, so between Michelino and his presumed master Giovannino, I should have everything I need as models.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#335
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 17:26
Phaeded, here is the link to the Biblioteca Angelo Mai in Bergamo, the copybook of Giovannino de' Grassi -
https://www.bdl.servizirl.it/vufind/Rec ... GETTO-2411

Click on "Sfoglia."

... but I don't have a phoenix (and neither gives me a dolphin for Neptune, but most of the other animals are in one or both). I wondered if Giovannino might have one somewhere, if you have seen it.
The de' Grassi was awesome - thanks for the link. I'm slammed by the "real" world today but will post many of the images later - really some bizarre stemma-like images I'm unfamiliar with.

As for dolphin - non in Grassi - and you know they never look naturalistic, as in this Dolphin/Dauphin (late 15th c.)
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Also check the Ulysses cassoni by Apollonio - there may be some interesting dolphins there.

Finally, the Lion-Superbia connection is not from the bestiary but from Dante (I read about it again in a book about the bestiary) - the three animals Dante encounters in the beginning of the Inferno in the dark wood, the middle one, a lion, was universally linked to superbia by Trecento commentators (some modern commentators differ on what the three animals were, but of course that is beyond irrelevant - in Visconti's day, the lion - when a negative example - was superbia, even found in Franciscan art (1440s, lion/pride trampled under foot):
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But Belbello obviously took from Grassi's notebook for the lion in question in the Visconti Hours in LF58 (look how the front left paw is turned inward in both):
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dei Grassi notebook - lion.JPG
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#336
Huck wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 19:01
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Fenix or phoenix at google.pictures. Perhaps adding "15th century" or another keyword, which excludes modern results.

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Thanks Huck. But I'm not looking for just any medieval depiction of a phoenix, I want an "international gothic" image of a phoenix - from an artist like Giovannino de' Grassi, Michelino da Besozzo, the Limbourg brothers, Belbelo da Pavia, those kinds of artists, around 1380-1430.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#338
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 20:48
Phaeded wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 20:06
The de' Grassi was awesome - thanks for the link. I'm slammed by the "real" world today but will post many of the images later - really some bizarre stemma-like images I'm unfamiliar with.
Great! Can you send me the PDF, to either email address?
Ah, I didn't try to download the pdf until just now - just looked on-line; same fuzzy "terrible black and white" resolution, like an old photocopy of a copy. See if your wife's computer can at least view the color on-line version.

I of course didn't snip all of them on line, but the ones that look most relevant and interesting. Will post those here....

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#340
Dolphins are a problem - everything is hippocamps; even if you find an engraving of Neptune on a dolphin its almost always singular. You're best bet is to find an image with a vertical/card aspect (Neptune frontal or 3/4 view), and just change out the hippocamp horseheads for "fish"/dolphin heads (they always look like fish-monsters). Something like this:
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Here's your dolphin heads (for some reason the same dumb 15th century style stayed current through the 18th century):
Dolphins.JPG
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This one looks like it's almost German expressionism (its actually Jean Le Pautre, 1618-1682) , but if you "dumb down" the body to that of a 15th century style, this would work (and he needs the chariot, which Marziano describes as gold - maybe highlight it with green as reflecting the sea):
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