Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#31
I added this to the above after you already replied about asking Thierry, so in case you didn't see this:
I cannot even find our author to bug her for the relevant details - but there is already a festshrift out there for her: Studi in onore di Maria Grazia Albertini Ottolenghi. That's unfortunate because older scholars usually do not load their papers to Accademia.edu and she is likely retired and not searchable via a university directory (I can't even find an emeritus listing for her).

Marziano still alive in July 1424!

#33
Well, it's big news in my world. From an older study, overlooked until Google OCR accidentally found it when I was looking for something else:

Sergio Pagano, "Documenti della mensa vescovile di Tortona riguardanti il territorio di S. Agata Fossili (sec. XV-XVI)," in Ricerche storiche su S. Agata Fossili, Tortona 1988, pp. 9-33. (Documents of the office of episcopal revenue of Tortona relating to the territory of S. Agata Fossili)

Marziano is the first witness to a document signed on 25 July, 1424:
Marcianus de Sancto Aloxio, vicarius episcopalis Terdonen[sis]

http://www.santagatafossili.com/download/pagdoc.pdf

So at some point Marziano was also appointed episcopal vicar for Tortona.

Here are the Canons relevant to episcopal vicars (476-481). These Canons are probably modern, although I would assume they are still broadly indicative of medieval practice. Particularly notable is the requirement that episcopal vicars be priests of at least 30 years old. This is probably the same as the medieval requirement, and should be confirmation that Marziano was a priest (he was one of Gregory XII's "clerics of the apostolic chamber," but I couldn't find any information about whether that implied the deaconate or higher orders).
https://canonlaw.ninja/?nums=475-481&v=sbs

Sergio Pagano was born in 1948, and is still alive. His title is given as Prefect of the Vatican Secret Archives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Pagano
Here is his English CV -
http://asv.vatican.va/content/archivios ... fetto.html

I will write him to ask if he can direct me to more references to Marziano, particularly for any help in finding his name during the pontificate of Gregory XII.
I can't find his email address, so I'll have to write to the Archives in general at asv@asv.va

We have therefore narrowed his date of death by more than a year. Prior to yesterday, we had "between 29 April 1423 and 1 February 1425." Now we have narrowed it to six months, between 25 July 1424 and 1 February 1425.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#34
In document 3 of the same paper, 26 June 1445, we find "Marcianus de Sancto Aloysio, filius quondam Georgii, vicarius episcopatus Therdone" (Marziano de S. Alosio, son of the late Giorgio, temporal vicar of Tortona).

This Marziano may be the same a "Marziano II" in the Sardigliano paper, but this latter gives him as the son of Francesco, our Marziano's younger brother. So this is either a different Marziano, or that genealogy is wrong.

Sardigliano states: "Marziano II. fu investito il 20 luglio 1435 del feudo di Garbagna, da parte del fratello monsignor Enrico. Nel 1447 ricoprì inoltre la carica di vicario temporale del Vescovato."

Marziano II, on 20 July 1435 was granted the fief of Garbagna, from his brother monsignor Enrico. In 1447 he also held the position of temporal vicar of the bishopric.

We know these two Marzianos are different because ours is the son of Giovanni, noted in the 1 February 1425 document, as well as one of 1422 -

1422 14 February Milan consiliario domino Martiano de Sancto Alosio filio quondam domini Joannis.
"the lord's advisor Marziano da Sant'Alosio, son of the late lord Giovanni."
Francesco Galantino, Storia di Soncino con documenti III, p. 229
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#35
hi Ross,
much rain in Beziers in the moment ...

Nice finding.
25th of July, 1424 is very close to 28th of July, 1424, the day, when Carlo Malatesta became prisoner. It needed some time, before he could have reached Abbiategrasso, which is located between Milan and Novara.
Image
... picture from 1894, Castello Viscontea

Google Maps, modern
https://www.google.de/maps/@45.3985465, ... 576!8i4788

Filippo Maria's lover became pregnant at the begin of the month July 1424 (9 monthes later Bianca Maria was born). Around 25th of July she might have had the suspicion, that she was pregnant.

Where was Martianus in the time of the document?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#36
He must have been in Tortona, where the document was signed. Since he is vicarius episcopalis Terdonen[sis], he must have been stationed there more or less permanently.

It appears to be the granting of monies from the products of some land to the Bishop.

The notary who signed it is named Sebastianus de Vigueria, which I suppose is Sebastiano da/di Voghera in Italian, and his title is "publicus inperiali
auctoritate notarius et episcopali curie Terdonen. notarius
."

I have written to the office of the author, and received a response from his secretary saying that he had no more knowledge of Martianus de Sancto Aloxio.

Abbiategrasso looks much nicer now than when we visited in 2008. Now it has some life around it! We could not go inside while the work was going on. That old engraving/photo is very evocative, too.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#37
Generally I would doubt, that Martianus was "always" in Tortona. For some time it seems, that he was of much importance for Filippo Maria. It's not imaginable, that Filippo went to Marziano, so Marziano must have gone to Filippo.
Maybe in age he returned to Tortona. Tortona is about 60 km from Abbiategrasso.

Somewhere is written, that Pietro Lapini da Montalcino got the "pupillo" from Marziano ... after the death of Marziano.
https://www.yumpu.com/it/document/read/ ... linverni/3
(text at the right side).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#38
Maybe the "pupillo" explains a part of the collection, that you presented earlier ...
In document 3 of the same paper, 26 June 1445, we find "Marcianus de Sancto Aloysio, filius quondam Georgii, vicarius episcopatus Therdone" (Marziano de S. Alosio, son of the late Giorgio, temporal vicar of Tortona).

This Marziano may be the same a "Marziano II" in the Sardigliano paper, but this latter gives him as the son of Francesco, our Marziano's younger brother. So this is either a different Marziano, or that genealogy is wrong.

Sardigliano states: "Marziano II. fu investito il 20 luglio 1435 del feudo di Garbagna, da parte del fratello monsignor Enrico. Nel 1447 ricoprì inoltre la carica di vicario temporale del Vescovato."

Marziano II, on 20 July 1435 was granted the fief of Garbagna, from his brother monsignor Enrico. In 1447 he also held the position of temporal vicar of the bishopric.

We know these two Marzianos are different because ours is the son of Giovanni, noted in the 1 February 1425 document, as well as one of 1422 -

1422 14 February Milan consiliario domino Martiano de Sancto Alosio filio quondam domini Joannis.
"the lord's advisor Marziano da Sant'Alosio, son of the late lord Giovanni."
Francesco Galantino, Storia di Soncino con documenti III, p. 229
Possibly it's a nephew, where the responsible father (a brother to Martiano) had died.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

1408 date with Gregory XII

#39
Finally found one! 24 April 1408 in Bullarium Canonicorum Regularium Congregationi Sanctissimi Salvatoris (Rome, 1733)

https://books.google.fr/books?id=fl1PAA ... 22&f=false

Another from 1601, with the form "Marciano de Rampinis"
https://books.google.fr/books?id=vsJLAA ... 22&f=false

Another apparently from April 1408, on the same subject, in a book of 1611 -
https://books.google.fr/books?id=wGzTCC ... 22&f=false

The form "Martiano de Rampinis" and the longer "Martiano de Rampinis de Terdona" was suggested by some of the entries from the Ducal Archives and Registers at
http://www.asmilano.it/AriannaWeb/main. ... 0_archivio

I have not found his signature so far, he is noted as a witness to various enfeoffments and acts of fealty to Milan.
Image

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#40
Huck wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 21:13

Possibly it's a nephew, where the responsible father (a brother to Martiano) had died.
The problem is that Marziano's father was named Giovanni, and his four sons were, in order, Marziano, Francesco, Torello, and Manfredino. Francesco had sons (as far as the record goes), Urbano (who inherited Sant'Alosio in 1408), Enrico (who became a Cardinal, he is the best known Rampini), Pasino, Torello, and Marziano.

Ugo Rozzo's genealogy from 1982, "Ritratto di Marziano da Tortona,"


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... zo1982.jpg

The genealogy from the Sardigliano history site, document 1, page 18 (documents are at the bottom of the page). Sorry about the quality, that's how it appears in their document.
http://www.comune.sardigliano.al.it/it- ... une/storia


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... logy18.jpg
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron