Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#211
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Hercules is opposed to Jupiter in the same category (virtues). Hercules is the youngest child of Jupiter.
Amor is opposed to Venus in the same category (pleasures). Amor is the most important son of Venus.

Such good relations can't easily be stated for the pairs Juno/Aeolos and Athena/Daphne. Reason to think about them.

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The upper 2 rows (virtues and riches) contain 7 male figures. This looks, as if somebody had originally the idea to have 8 male figures in the 2 top rows and 8 female figures im the 2 bottom rows. But then he got another idea, possibly caused by the idea of the triad Jupiter - Juno - Minerva (the Capitoline triad) in the first column, which was added with the figure of Venus at the 4th position. With that Juno (female) got the position Nr. 2 inside the male domain (the 2 top rows).
Possibly this Venus addition had the background, that Visconti had Jupiter paired with Venus as ancestors.

:-) ... but that's not all
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#212
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:49

I actually think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to construct Filippo Maria's natal chart, as well as June 16 1412 at 9 am, to compare them. We know they did it for him, and that he consulted Dondi's clock regularly. One would have to be an expert in historical astrology, though, or know the sources, which I do not.
Here ya go: https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Fi ... a_Visconti

I just think its funny that this even out there on the web; lord knows if its right.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#213
Huck wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 20:58
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Hercules is opposed to Jupiter in the same category (virtues). Hercules is the youngest child of Jupiter.
Amor is opposed to Venus in the same category (pleasures). Amor is the most important son of Venus.

I'm not following you at all here - Hercules is just the last of the Eagles/Virtue suit. How exactly does that make him "opposed" to his father Jupiter? Same with Venus, her son does her bidding - how are they "opposed"?

At some point your arguments need to reference Marziano's text.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#214
"Hercules is opposed to Jupiter in the same category (virtues)."

... hm ... what is difficult in this sentence? The category is given (virtues, that is the group Jupiter-Apollo-Mercury, a ranking is given: first-Jupiter, second-Apollo, third-Mercury, last-Hercules and the "first" and the "last" of something inside games are natural oppositions.
Is this too difficult for you? Would you suggest another word? I could offer "horizontal opposition" in contrast to "vertical opposition"(as for Jupiter+Venus) and "diagonal oppositon" (as for Jupiter and Amor).
At some point your arguments need to reference Marziano's text.
Marziano isn't a mythology dictionary. Mythology has an existence outside of the few words of Marziano. Marziano had set up a mathematical scheme (a playing card order) to interpret common mythology. We try to understand, what Marziano might have meant with his few words and the use of his specific order. Anything wrong with this?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#215
Phaeded wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 22:38
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:49

I actually think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to construct Filippo Maria's natal chart, as well as June 16 1412 at 9 am, to compare them. We know they did it for him, and that he consulted Dondi's clock regularly. One would have to be an expert in historical astrology, though, or know the sources, which I do not.
Here ya go: https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Fi ... a_Visconti

I just think its funny that this even out there on the web; lord knows if its right.
There are differences in the dates. The Italian Wiki date is September 3 (also used at treccani.it in details, treccani gives just a 1392), other dates are September 22 and 23. The date used for the astrology chart is September 23.
Enciclopedia machiavelliana (2014)
Secondogenito di Gian Galeazzo Visconti, signore e poi primo duca di Milano, e di Caterina di Bernabò Visconti, Filippo Maria nacque a Milano il 3 settembre 1392. Alla morte del padre, nel 1402, divenne conte di Pavia; e nel 1412, dopo l’assassinio del fratello Giovanni Maria (16 maggio), assunse il ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#216
Huck wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 06:56
There are differences in the dates. The Italian Wiki date is September 3 (also used at treccani.it in details, treccani gives just a 1392), other dates are September 22 and 23. The date used for the astrology chart is September 23.
There is no dispute over 23 September. Any other dates are mistakes, that's all. Sources are Decembrio, Vita, chapter 5, and Corio, Storia di Milano, III,vii.

Decembrio (with notes by Butti and Fossati), scroll back to page 17 -
https://books.google.fr/books?id=zHUtAQ ... 22&f=false

Bernardino Corio (1459-c. 1519), page 369, "Nel prossimo settembre...Ed addi ventitrè dello stesso mese a Giovan Galeazzo da sua moglie Caterina nacque un figlio che chiamò Filippo Maria, " (Next September... And on the twenty-third of the same month to Gian Galeazzo from his wife Caterina was born a son he/she called Filippo Maria...")
https://books.google.fr/books?id=RqoppW ... lo&f=false
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#218
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 11:49
Somewhere, I can't find the damned reference now, there is record of a letter sent to Voghera (I believe) which stated that he entered the city (not sure which gate, presumably Vercellina, the closest to the castle) at 9 am on that day. I imagine the day and time were chosen for their astrological significance, which would be interesting to see (propitious aspects for Jupiter, Mars?).
Found it! Felice Fossati, "Appunti e note" in Viglevanum. Rivista della Società vigevanese di lettere, storia ed arte, IV (1910), p. 54.
http://digitale.bnc.roma.sbn.it/tecadig ... 1910/unico (main link, go page by page)
All the available volumes -
http://digitale.bnc.roma.sbn.it/tecadig ... TO00197595
This link to Google Books may work for Americans -
https://books.google.fr/books?id=lXkfm3 ... wQ6AEIKjAA

So it was Vigevano, not Voghera.

The context is payments to messengers, and how sometimes they got a big tip for bringing "good news" (pro bona nova). One such was a servant of Antonio Bossi, who, on 16 June 1412, brought his normal business along with the good news that Filippo Maria had entered Milan at 9 am that morning, for which he received Lire 6, soldi 8. By contrast, Giovanni da Milano brought the same news with a letters from the duchess on the 19th, but only got a bonus of 2 Lire.
Un familiare d'Antonio Bossi che, il 16 giugno '12, riferisce esser il duca entrato quel giorno, alle ore 9, in Milano, “pro bono novo”, L. 6,8, mentre Giovanni da Milano che il 19 porta la stessa notizia con lettere della duchessa, solo L. 2.
A servant of Antonio Bossi who, on June 16, '12, reports that the Duke entered that day, at hour 9, into Milan, "pro bono novo", L. 6,8, while Giovanni da Milano who on the 19th brings the same news with letters from the Duchess, only L. 2.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#219
My confirmation bias is getting the better of me; I've found yet other reasons to prefer 1412, more precisely late 1412, for the composition of DSH.

Filippo Maria seems to have been profligate in spending in the early days. The money he received from Beatrice seems to have been liquid cash. Corio counts it as 400,000 ducati, which is separate from all the towns and the army under Facino Cane that he inherited by the marriage. It seems plausible that he lavished gifts on his loyal friends, as well as spending it on bribes where needed.

But already by 2 February 1413, Filippo Maria says he cannot pay the salary of his Vicar General, Antonio de Tortis (Marziano list number 54). Is it possible that he burned through 400,000 ducats in less than a year? Or at least got tight enough that he started to worry about cash?

If we can trust Decembrio,* he says Marziano was secretary. Marziano was promoted from cancellarius to secretary between 13 and 22 September 1412. The promotion obviously entailed an increase in pay.

If he were so profligate in his spending early on, this might help explain the huge sum of 1500 gold pieces (=ducati?) Decembrio says Filippo Maria paid for the DSH.


*Value of Decembrio as a witness. Where he did not see something, he may be relying on the witness of his brother Modesto, or his father Uberto. Not only from his correspondents and friends, but also from his intimate family, he has a depth of witness to which no other biographer can come close.

Filippo Argelati (page 26) says that from 1412 to 1426, by ducal decree, the gold ducat of Milan was worth 2 lire 10 soldi. I would guess that Decembrio is using he long-lasting standard of 1412-1426, but who really knows?
https://books.google.fr/books?id=mp3eop ... 22&f=false
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#220
Huck wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 02:56
"Hercules is opposed to Jupiter in the same category (virtues)."

... hm ... what is difficult in this sentence? The category is given (virtues, that is the group Jupiter-Apollo-Mercury, a ranking is given: first-Jupiter, second-Apollo, third-Mercury, last-Hercules and the "first" and the "last" of something inside games are natural oppositions.
Is this too difficult for you? Would you suggest another word? I could offer "horizontal opposition" in contrast to "vertical opposition"(as for Jupiter+Venus) and "diagonal oppositon" (as for Jupiter and Amor).
Uh...yeah: rank.

A general outranks a colonel in the same way the king of swords outranks the knight of swords, yet they're both on "team swords" (hence wearing the same livery).

The interjection of "opposition" within any of Marziano's thematic suits is pure nonsense.

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