Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

it depends, what one makes out of "tout fait à personnaiges".
If one follows the idea, that "all motives on all cards were connected to 'personnaiges'" , then we have 3 or 4 known decks which fulfill the condition.

a. the favoured 60-cards-deck observed by John of Rheinfelden. 4x5 are court cards with persons, the 4x10 number cards show professions.
b. the Höfämterspiel with 24 court cards (unnumbered kings + queens, numbered Hofmeister (number 10), Marshalls (9), Junckfrawe (6), Fools (1)) and 24 Hofämter (numbers 2, 3, 4, 5. 7, 8)
c. the Sola-Busca Tarocchi, in which the number cards were decorated with persons
d. the German deck, which was made for the wedding of the Habsburg children with Spanish heirs in the 1490s ... most (but not all) of the number cards show persons

But is it totally sure, that the reading is correct? At least the original text was handwritten, not printed. So a reading mistake might have happened easily..

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Ferry II married a daughter of Rene I d'Anjou, Yolande * 1428, who was his own cousin. Rene I was his father-in-law.
Yolande might have gotten the deck with gods of Marcello from her mother Isabelle de Lorraine.
Ferry II and Yolande had the son Rene II, who later played with Trionfi cards.
Ferry II died 1470 (he was not duke of Lorraine), Rene II became duke of Lorraine in 1473, then 22 years old.é_of_Anjoué_d%27Anjou ... _Vaudémont (= Ferry II)émont,_ ... f_Lorraineé_II,_Duke_of_Lorraineé_II_de_Lorraine

Lorraine was at the Eastern part of France, near the domain of the house of Luxembourg. Easily one might have gotten there playing card customs and styles from the Luxembourg dynasty, which probably had a leading role in early playing card production.

Re: "Ung jeu de quartes tout fait à personnaiges " 27 février 1451 (D'Agnel, Comptes du Roi René)

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:
21 Dec 2019, 16:39

Well, I followed the suggestion of Ross and inquired circa de Isabelle de Lorraine death date 1453 ( within more or less 5 years).
I also thought about Ferry II de Lorraine de Vaudemont ... %C3%A9mont

Looking in D'AGNEL's Comptes du Roi René, I did encounter FERRY de Lorraine in the GLOSSAIRE but never relationated to cards. Yet, finally, before quiting, I looked once more page by page, and I found, page 81, at last, a very interesting entry FERRI, monseigneur
Are FERRY and FERRI , monseigneur refering or not to te same person?
Here it the Entry number 495 dated from 27 février 1451
Hi Alain,
I had doubts about the identification of "Ferry II de Lorraine de Vaudemont" with "Ferri, monseigneur" in the copied text cause of the "monseigneur", but I found in the text of ... ... ur&f=false
... the passage "le Comte de Vaudemont, (Footnote 1) Ferry Monseigneur de Lorraine" and as Footnote 1"Ferri II, Comte de Vaudémont depuis 1447, fils d'Antoine Comte de Vaudémont".
So it seems clear, that this person might be easily "Ferri II, son-in-law to René d'Anjou since 1445", when he married Jolande * 1428, the daughter of René and Isabella de Lorraine.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

My first thought was something like the Hofämterspiel as well.

But "personnaiges" can refer to pagan gods, e.g. ... wQ6AEIcDAJ
"neuf personnaiges et ymages des dieux payens" .

I have always imagined that Michelino's miniature paintings were stunning and beautiful, and probably much talked about among Isabelle and René's circle. They were probably unique, a novelty. Perhaps they had an influence on the depiction of the pagan gods.

So, it occurs to me that we might start to look for such depictions, in paintings and manuscripts, which were made in and around Saumur and radiating out from there, starting in 1450. These might reflect what Michelino's depictions looked like.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

I saw "personnaiges" also used for 9 or 18 heroes ... and also others. In the case of René allegorical figures from the Roman de la rose would be logical.

Isabella was more or less from Germany, close to Straßburg, which was playing card production center. So she knew about German creativity with cards. German decks from 15th / early 16th century showed a lot of variants . So a lot of objects might have been these "personnaiges".

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