Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

#31
Thanks to both of you. Sorry for my late reply. Phaeded, every time I read something by you I am getting an education in art history and sometimes military history. I hope you will continue challenging me

PLEASE DISREGARD THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH: i HAD FORGOTTEN MY OWN ARGUMENTS!
My main reason for positing Hope-Faith-Charity was that I was using Minchiate as my only guide. After that, there was the question, where would such an unexpected order have been found, and by whom? That has bearing on where the order Hope-Faith-Charity originated. If there was nothing in Florence, but was in Milan or Ferrara, that would tell me something. But there was (in Florence), and by an artist whom some have considered a card maker (Belosi, Fiorini), or at least worthy of being considered a card maker (the editors of the Dal Ponte book, who attribute the Rothschild Knight to him with a question mark). If you know of the order Hope-Faith-Charity appearing in Milan or Ferrara, please tell me, so I don't keep putting my foot in my mouth. The Scheggia piece was interesting, because it, too, might be Hope-Faith-Charity, but going from right to left. It might depend on how the cardinals are arranged there. He is a known card producer.

REWRITE OF THE ABOVE:
It isn't crucial that the theologicals in the CY have been in one order rather than another. But I had to put something, since in other respects the order is crucial. All I really wanted to suggest in relation to the order, as part of my hypothesis, is that the three celestials replaced the three theologicals, for whatever reason. In this regard there are visual similarities between CY Hope and PMB Star, CY Faith and PMB Moon, and CY Charity and PMB Sun, Also, Minchiate has the order Hope-Faith-Charity. Moreover, the A order Star card strongly suggests the Star of Bethlehem, which would fit the theme of Hope better than the other two. The Moon suggests Faith, in a world in which nothing is clear to the senses. The Sun suggests God's charity, just as the Sun gives us light and warmth. The monument with Hope-Faith-Charity is only to show that before 1440 the order in I Corinthians and in Aquinas wasn't dogmatically adhered to in visual representations of this virtue. In fact even Aquinas has Hope prior in some regards, as I quoted the Summa. I will rewrite my phrase "Lacking anything better", and perhaps other phrases, as it does appear that I am using Aquinas and Dal Ponte as my basis. I did not intend that.
END OF REWRITE

As far as Charity not having a vice under her, it makes sense aesthetically if she is raised up. What you needed to show me is an example where the cardinal virtues are trampling vices but the theologicals aren't, or vice versa, and there is no aesthetic reason to omit them for one group or the other, for example, they are on two sides with maybe one virtue in a central position perhaps not trampling one (Charity, Faith, or Prudence, I would guess).

And many thanks for your work on Karnoffel, Huck. But I don't understand how Lazy Fritz is one of the four, since he does not beat a king. I was only talking about the king-beaters. That is relevant because in tarot all the trumps can beat the kings. What evidence is there before 1546? And thanks for the quote about the four empires: I can use that.

ADDED NEXT DAY: I REWROTE MY FIRST PARAGRAPH. SEE ABOVE. MY APOLOGIES. MY HEAD HAS BEEN ELSEWHERE.

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