I didn't think you were implying that the planetary gods were superseded or anything; just pointing out the facts I mentioned, for whatever they are worth. These are that the first twelve gods are what we recognize as "Olympian", absent Vulcan but including both of the alternates Vesta and Bacchus; and that Manilius was not present in the otherwise large astronomical collection of the Pavia library.mikeh wrote: ↑26 Jan 2019, 11:49About planetary gods vs. Olympic gods, I didn't mean to imply that the planetary aspects of gods dropped out of consideration - far from it. As far as Manilius being the impetus for Maziano, what I was suggesting was that before Manilius was discovered, the Olympian gods were not considered as such, as a group, more or less, in the way that planetary gods were, before Poggio's discovery. That see to me the logical explanation for why Pluto isn't included in the 12. But I don't know medieval accounts of the gods as well as some participants here.
It is not important that Manilius was not part of the Visconti library. It wasn't even necessary that anyone in Milan or Pavia have a copy. All Manilius provided was a list, as part of a few lines of his poem, maybe twelve, with a few epithets thrown in. That alone proved, later on, to be the significant thing. Unfortunately I did not scan that page of the book. Decker in his book made use of Manilius in another way, a way which I thought was quite arbitrary, and those were the pages I scanned. If the epithets related to Manilius's descriptions, that would be significant, but I don't recall that they do.
You are surely right that the notion of "Olympic gods" was a late development. But the notion of these twelve as a group was present in Latin literature as the Dii Consentes; in Livy, Apuleius, and Arnobius. These are the same as the Olympic twelve, but with Vulcan and Vesta, excluding Bacchus. Notably, they are paired male-female in the lists of Livy and Apuleius (quoting Ennius), which matches the balance of Marziano, Bacchus male replacing Vulcan male.
Here are the sources -
Livy Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9
sex puluinaria in conspectu fuerunt, Ioui ac Iunoni unum, alterum Neptuno ac Mineruae, tertium Marti ac Ueneri, quartum Apollini ac Dianae, quintum Uolcano ac Uestae, sextum Mercurio et Cereri.
Six couches were publicly exhibited; one for Jupiter and Juno, another for Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, and the sixth for Mercury and Ceres.
(translation William Masfen Roberts (aka Rev. Canon Roberts), The History of Rome, 1905)
Six couches were displayed: one for Jupiter and Juno, a second for Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, a sixth for Mercury and Ceres.7
7 The twelve great Olympian gods, arranged in pairs as with the Greeks, here make their appearance together for the first time in Roman history.
(Benjamin Oliver Foster, Titus Livius, The History of Rome,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... apter%3D10 )
Apuleius, De Deo Socratis II,9-19
Est aliud deorum genus, quod natura uisibus nostris denegauit, nec non tamen intellectu eos
rimabundi contemplamur, acie mentis acrius contemplantes. Quorum in numero sunt illi duodecim
[numero] situ nominum in duo uersus ab Ennio coartati:
Iuno, Vesta, Minerua, Ceres, Diana, Venus, Mars,
Mercurius, Iouis, Neptunus, Vulcanus, Apollo
ceterique id genus, quorum nomina quidem sunt nostris auribus iam diu cognita, potentiae uero
animis coniectatae per uarias utilitates in uita agenda animaduersas in iis rebus, quibus eorum sin-
There are gods of another kind whom nature has withheld from our sight, and yet whom we contemplate by intellectual inquiry, contemplating them all the more clearly by our keenness of mind. In their number are those twelve that Ennius, by his arrangement of their names, packed into two lines:
Juno, Vesta, Minerva, Ceres, Diana, Venus, Mars,
Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune, Vulcan, Apollo,
and the others of that sort, whose names indeed have long since been familiar to our ears, but whose powers in those areas that each of them individually governs are inferred by our intellects as we pass our lives.
(translation Christopher Jones, Apuleius, Apologia, Florida, De Deo Socratis (Loeb Classical Library, 2017)
Arnobius, Adversus nationes liber III, 40
40.1. Nigidius Penates deos Neptunum esse atque Apollinem prodidit, qui quondam muris immortalibus Ilium condicione adiuncta cinxerunt. Idem rursus in libro sexto exponit et decimo disciplinas Etruscas sequens, genera esse Penatium quattuor et esse Iovis ex his alios, alios Neptuni, inferorum tertios, mortalium hominum quartos, inexplicabile nescio quid dicens. 2. Caesius et ipse id sequens Fortunam arbitratur et Cererem, Genium Iovialem ac Palem, sed non illam feminam quam vulgaritas accipit sed masculini nescio quem generis ministrum Iovis ac vilicum. 3. Varro qui sunt introrsus atque in intimis penetralibus caeli deos esse censet quos loquimur nec eorum numerum nec nomina sciri. Hos Consentes et Complices Etrusci aiunt et nominant, quod una oriantur et occidant una, sex mares et totidem feminas, nominibus ignotis et miserationis parcissimae; sed eos summi Iovis consiliarios ac principes existimari. 4. Nec defuerunt qui scriberent Iovem, Iunonem ac Minervam deos Penates existere, sine quibus vivere ac sapere nequeamus et qui penitus nos regant ratione, calore ac spiritu. Ut videtis, et hic quoque nihil concinens dicitur, nihil una pronuntiatione finitur, nec est aliquid fidum, quo insistere mens possit veritati suae proxima suspicione coniciens. Ita enim labant sententiae alteraque opinio ab altera convellitur, ut aut nihil ex omnibus verum sit aut si ab aliquo dicitur, tot rerum diversitatibus nesciatur.
40. Nigidius taught that the dii Penates were Neptune and Apollo, who once, on fixed terms, girt Ilium with walls. He himself again, in his sixteenth book, following Etruscan teaching, shows that there are four kinds of Penates; and that one of these pertains to Jupiter, another to Neptune, the third to the shades below, the fourth to mortal men, making some unintelligible assertion. Caesius himself, also, following this teaching, thinks that they are Fortune, and Ceres, the genius Jovialis, and Pales, but not the female deity commonly received, but some male attendant and steward of Jupiter. Varro thinks that they are the gods of whom we speak who are within, and in the inmost recesses of heaven, and that neither their number nor names are known. The Etruscans say that these are the Consentes and Complices (8), and name them because they rise and fall together, six of them being male, and as many female, with unknown names and pitiless dispositions, but they are considered the counsellors and princes of Jove supreme. There were some, too, who said that Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva were the dii Penates, without whom we cannot live and be wise, and by whom we are ruled within in reason, passion, and thought. As you see, even here, too, nothing is said harmoniously, nothing is settled with the consent of all, nor is there anything reliable on which the mind can take its stand, drawing by conjecture very near to the truth. For their opinions are so doubtful, and one supposition so discredited by another, that there is either no truth in them all, or if it is uttered by any, it is not recognised amid so many different statements.
(translation James Donaldson, The Seven Books of Arnobius Adversus Gentes, Ante-Nicene Christian Library, 1871, pp. 178-179
https://archive.org/details/thesevenboo ... /page/n205 )
Donaldson’s note (8) – “Consentes (those who are together, or agree together, i.e. councillors) and Complices (confederate, or agreeing) are said by some to be the twelve gods who composed the great council of heaven; and, in accordance with this, the words una oriantur et occidant might be translated “rise and sit down together,” i.e. at the council table. But then, the names and number of these are known; while Arnobius says, immediately after, that the names of the dii Consentes are not known, and has already quoted Varro, to the effect that niether names nor number are known. Schelling (über die Gotth. v. Samothr., quoted by Orelli) adopts the reading (see the following note), “of whom very little mention is made,” i.e., in prayers or rites, because they are merely Jove’s councillors, and exercise no power over men, and identifies them with the Samothracian Cabiri – Κάβειροι and Consentes being merely Greek and Latin renderings of the name.”
So not Olympic gods, but dii Consentes. The pairings of male and female deities, the eternal virgins with non-virgin males - Vulcan and Vesta, Neptune and Minerva, and Apollo and Diana - shows that there is not sexual connotation to their being together.