Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#11
mikeh wrote:
16 Jan 2019, 23:02
As far as the manuscript's Latin, I have trouble reading it. Surely someone has a transcript.
I find the script quite legible, but my problem is the use of abbreviations, with which I am not familiar enough. A transcript would be nice, if one is available.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#12
Marco and I are revising my old translation now. We are up to Bacchus. Any quotes I post now are from the new translation, which supersedes the old one from 2003.

We are working as fast as we can, since October. Hopefully we can publish it, with the transcription, paired with images of the manuscript, very soon. I hesitate to give a definitive date, but two months seems like a good estimate. It could be sooner.

I discovered two other manuscripts of Marziano's Tractatus (Marcello's letter is uniquely in the Paris manuscript). We were able to get a copy of one of them, in Brescia, the other is in a private library, in the extreme south of Italy. The library has not been open to scholars for a long time, which has scandalized others besides us who would like to use it.

But the second copy has been very useful in correcting some mistakes in my original transcription, as well as a few in the Paris manuscript itself. But on the whole, the Paris manuscript is superior to the Brescia one.

I am reluctant to post the entire transcription until the translation is finished. I will happily post lines from it where necessary, but it seems that those we are discussing are already out there.

In the meantime, don't forget the thread I started in 2013 on the Paris manuscript. The text and revised transcription of Marcello's letter is there, along with the new translation.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=933&p=20469&hilit=8745#p13572
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Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#13
Ross, I would appreciate it if you could post the Latin of Marziano, just for the part up to the descriptions of the individual gods.
As for the translation, I am interested in the same, but I'll contact you privately about it. Perhaps here you could share your translation of the sentences I was struggling with in my last longish post, i.e.:
Harum vero Avium ordo est quia nulla earum species in alteram vis habet.

"Of these, none of the species of birds in the order of things has power over another [species of bird].".
What do you make of the "of things" here?

And
I
Indeed the first order, of virtues, is certain: ... And subordinated to these are four kinds of birds, being suited by similarity. Thus to the rank of virtues, the Eagle; ...
To which I might add what is just before and just after:
... Thus by observation of them, be ready to be aroused to virtue.
And
However, the order of these Birds is, although none of their type has right over another, yet this arrangement they have alternately...
Thanks for whatever you can provide in this public forum.

Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#14
Thanks Ross, appreciate you are working on a new translation and don't want to share too much at the moment, but just to say I agree with the analysis you gave, makes good sense of it to me, thank you. Look forward to your and Marco's revision when completed. (My regards to Marco btw, miss him!)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#16

http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotext/8745com4.jpg

"ut horum animadversione ad virtutum studia propensius exciteris : Primus quidem virtutum ordo est constans : Iove. Apolline. Mercurio. et Hercule. Secundus divitiarum . ex Iunone. Neptuno. Marte. et Eolo. Tertius virginitatis seu continentiae : ex Pallade. Dyana. Vesta. et Daphnae. Quartus vero voluptatis : ex Venere. Baccho. Cerere. et Cupidine. Subordinanturque his quatuor Avium genera, similitudinibus accomodata. Virtutum quidem ordini. Aquila. divitiarum. Foenix. continentiae Turtur. Voluptatis Columba. Unaquaeque proprio parens regi. Harum vero Avium ordo est, quod nulla earum species : in alteram ius habet. sed hoc pacto se invicem habent : Aquilarum et turturum multae paucis praesunt. Melius enim nobiscum agitur, cum multi virtutem, et continentiam colunt. Foenicum vero et columbarum pluribus pauciores imperant : quo enim plures divitiarum, et voluptatum secutores extiterint : deteriori loco nostrae res erunt. Deorum vero quisque omnibus ordinibus avium : et ordinum regibus praeerit. Sed inter se dii hac lege tenebuntur : quod qui prior inferius annotabitur, sequentibus omnibus praesit."

Don't take the following translation as set in stone; but it supersedes the old one.

Thus by observation of them, be ready to be aroused to virtue. The first order is indeed of virtues; it consists of: Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury and Hercules. The second of riches, of Juno, Neptune, Mars and Aeolus. The third of virginity or continence: of Pallas, Diana, Vesta and Daphne. The fourth however is of pleasure: of Venus, Bacchus, Ceres and Cupid. And subordinated to these are four kinds of birds, being suited by similarity. Thus to the rank of virtues, the Eagle; of riches, the Phoenix; of continence, the Turtledove; of pleasure, the Dove. And each one obeys its own king. However, the order of these Birds is, although none of their type has right over another, yet this arrangement they have alternately – Eagles and Turtledoves the many command the few: that is to say it goes better for us when many cultivate virtue and continence; but for Phoenices and Doves, the few rule over the many, which is to say that, the more there are of the followers of riches and pleasure, the more they lead to the deterioration of our station. Every one of the gods, however, will be above all the ranks of birds and the kings of the ranks. But the gods are held to this law among themselves: that who will be first designated below, he should lead all the others following in sequence.

Brescia, Queriniana C.VII.1, for comparison -


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... ii1com.jpg
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Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#17
Wonderful, Ross. Now I can feel comfortable again with the text.

My problem may be in the way I am expressing myself. It doesn't matter to me how the word "suit" fits into Marziano. Since it isn't there, I don't have to decide the question. I will try to express myself without assigning the term "suit" to either birds or qualities.

What matters is that the wording suggests, without stating clearly, that the orders of gods function in two ways, both as extensions of the orders of birds and their kings, i.e. as higher in the same series, and as a hierarchy in their own right. that is is suggested by the sentence, "And subordinated to these [orders] are four kinds of birds, being suited by similarity..." Here "subordinated to these [orders]" suggests that below each order of gods there is a an order of birds, i.e. we have first Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury, and Hercules, and then King of Eagles, X of Eagles, etc., where X = some whole number greater than 1, and "etc." means going down from there to 1. At the same time Jupiter is 1, Apollo 5, Mercury 9, and Hercules 13 in the hierarchy of gods. For purposes of trick-taking, the lower the god-number, the more powerful the card.

Then there is the question of what corresponds to the rule of "following suit" in this game, where the word "suit" does not appear. If a player has no eagles or their king, but does have one of the gods to which eagles are subordinate, does he have to play it? It seems a reasonable possibility that he does. because it is a reasonable possibility that "subordinated to these" means that each order of gods is the opposite of subordinate, i.e. supra-ordinate, to the corresponding order of birds, just as Two is is supra-ordinate to Ace within the order of eagles.

Another possibility is that it is the orders of birds as a whole that are subordinate to the orders of gods as a whole. But then what he is emphasizing, the similarities, and the divisions among gods, drops out as irrelevant to the playing of the game. All that matters is the four kinds of birds and the hierarchy of the gods, from 1 to 16. At best the only function of the 4x4 matrix is to provide a convenient picture in one's mind for remembering the order from 1 to 16, which goes by columns instead of rows. That, too, is a possibility. But not the only possibility. There may also be other ways of playing the game given what Marziano says, although I can't think of any.

I just realized that Franco's 1999 essay on Marziano hasn't been translated into English, except for one small part. I will work on it. Maybe that will give more clarity.

Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#18
One more question for Ross. About that second copy of Marziano's Treatise: what is its provenance, i.e. what is known about its history, such as where and when it might have been produced and its history since then? The reason I ask is that I am wondering whether it may have been known to the post-15th century owners of the Modrone, so as to influence how that deck might have been seen, in terms of a division into four groups of triumphs.

Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#19
mikeh wrote:
18 Jan 2019, 14:36
One more question for Ross. About that second copy of Marziano's Treatise: what is its provenance, i.e. what is known about its history, such as where and when it might have been produced and its history since then? The reason I ask is that I am wondering whether it may have been known to the post-15th century owners of the Modrone, so as to influence how that deck might have been seen, in terms of a division into four groups of triumphs.
We don't know, there is not much information at the Queriniana site. We can't say who it belonged to, who collected it, who bound it, etc. But we're making inquiries.

It is a loose gathering of various writings and letters by authors of the 15th century, not all by the same copyist. The latest date I have noted is 1463, a letter of Pope Pius II.
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Re: How do you play Marziano's game?

#20
mikeh wrote:
18 Jan 2019, 14:18
Another possibility is that it is the orders of birds as a whole that are subordinate to the orders of gods as a whole. But then what he is emphasizing, the similarities, and the divisions among gods, drops out as irrelevant to the playing of the game. All that matters is the four kinds of birds and the hierarchy of the gods, from 1 to 16. At best the only function of the 4x4 matrix is to provide a convenient picture in one's mind for remembering the order from 1 to 16, which goes by columns instead of rows.
I think this is correct. This "picture in one's mind" is what I mean by "four themes", the structuring principle around moral qualities.

I really think that Marziano is here inventing the very idea of a separate and permanent set of trumps. We are seeing the process by which he thought it up, starting with four moral characteristics, based on a moralization of the four suits. Then he abstracted the 4x4 gods from this, and gave them their own linear hierarchy.

For what this looked like, visually, we have Marcello's testimony as well - 16 celestial princes and barons, and four suits with their kings. So it was structured like a Tarot deck, which is what he compared it to. A trump sequence, and four suits.

For the rules, I find the easiest way to imagine it is like basic Tarot.

Making the gods effectively part of the bird suits, as you are, seems to make no practical difference in play.

If you have to follow suit, and the four Virtue gods are Eagle suit, then the high trump played of that suit still wins, and lower trump of that suit loses.
If you cannot follow suit, and play instead a higher trump than any card played in the suit led, you win. If you cannot follow suit, and play a lower trump than a trump played in the suit led, you lose the trick.

So e.g. in a game of four players, 10 of Eagles led. Second has only the King of Eagles remaining, plays it. Third has no Eagles or Virtue gods, so plays Neptune (6, Riches). Fourth plays Apollo (5, Virtues, Eagles). Apollo wins the trick because he is higher than Neptune.
Let’s say it is the same as above but player three has no Eagles or Virtues to play, so plays Venus (4, Doves Pleasures). If player four can follow suit and plays Jupiter, he wins because Jupiter is higher. If he can follow suit and plays Mercury 9, he loses because Mercury is lower than Venus. If he cannot follow suit and plays Juno 2 Riches Phoenices he wins, becaue Juno 2 is higher than Venus 4. Et cetera.

Nothing changes whether you regard the gods as "super court cards" of the four suits, since they are numbered in their own hierarchy. A higher will beat a lower, whether you had to play it or not. If you can, your higher trump following suit will beat a lower trump. If you can't, your higher trump will beat a lower trump whether of the suit led or not. The suits themselves have no ranking, Eagles is not higher than Doves.
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