Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

hi Phaeded,
Phaeded wrote:
01 Jul 2018, 19:22

There are so many glossing over of the facts in order to make the Petrarch theory work that it still makes the head spin.

No one in Quattrocento northern Italy would make the equation of Justice with sword = Fama without an an attribute of Fama. (hell, the Peselino c. 1450 example of Fame at the end of my post doesn't even hold a sword]

Chariot-as-Chastity only exist in a single exemplar, the CY (which speaks of a bride's chastity, Bianca's, versus the abstract virtue, and indeed Chasitity's shield is personalized with the Visconti radiate dove, not some generic "chastity" symbol). Moreover, If Petrarch was the organizing principle why does every other example of the Chariot show a MALE???

The Dick Tarot is a follower of this. The PMB has also a female charioteer. You definitely spoke nonsense with " why does every other example of the Chariot show a MALE???". Isn't it curious, that just those decks, which are considered very early, had the female charioteer? The earliest male charioteer, from which we know, is the male figure in the Charles VI Trionfi deck.

Especially vexing is your continued assumption that the surviving PMB cards somehow form a complete tarot set (instead of the consensus opinion that these are surviving cards forming part of a deck). At all events, most of these have NOTHING to do with Petrarch

We speak of a card deck type, which developed in long years, even centuries. Is it not imaginable for you, that this object changed with the time? Or that there were different interpretations even at the same time? That Florentine and and Ferrarese and Milanese decks had local differences? That even decks in one city might have been different considerably?
Is it clear to you, that we know from the complete Trionfi development in 15th century probably only less than 1percent ? The Petrarca Trionfi fashion started 1440, as far we know it from the letter of Piero di Medici. From the same time we have the first Trionfi card deck note. Do you indeed assume, that this was accidental?
We have no Trionfi card note, which tells us, that decks with 22 trumps existed till the Boiardo Trionfi card poem, which I date to c. 1487. If you know something different, you could tell me. We have on the other side the 70 cards note in 1457 (which indicates a 5x14 deck), the 14 pictures mentioned at 1.1.1441 and we have the 14 trump cards of the first painter of the PMB. Sure, that is not much, but the argument for early decks with 22 trumps have less evidence, cause there is nothing. Second to this we've a broad tradition of decks with 5 suits (already mentioned 1377), which was not so common as decks with 4 suits, but not really rare. Between these is also deck with 5x14-structure (Master PW).

Magician (1 in the game with the Milanese order) [not in Petrarch]
Popess (2) [not in Petrarch]
Empress (3) [not in Petrarch]
Emperor (4) [not in Petrarch]
Pope (5) [not in Petrarch]
Love (6)
Chariot (woman on chariot) (7) [only in the CY]
Justice (with knight) (8) [not in Petrarch]
Father Time (with hourglass) (9) [I would argue this is Saturn, but besides the point]
Wheel (10) [not in Petrarch, and Time can't be represented twice as both the "Hermit" and "Wheel"]
(0 or 11 ?) = Fool [not in Petrarch]
Hanging Man (Traitor) (12) [not in Petrarch]
Death (13)
(14 ? or 20) Jugement [not in Petrarch, and is not Eternity, which contemporary depiction has God in heaven with angels, not salvation and damning of those on earth; the Pesellino example of Petrarch's Eternity makes this abundantly clear below, showing the sequence of Fame (sans sword), Time and Eternity]

"Development" means, that something changes with the time. If Petrarca had 6 allegorical figures, later decks might have incorporated the 6 Petrarca figures plus figures from other contexts. Minchiate includes for example the 12 zodiac signs plus 4 elements plus 7 virtues plus etc ... is that astonishing to you? Don't you recognize the zodiac signs, if they appear in a Minchiate?

The picture of the Judgement is a little strange for "Eternity", but Eternity knows many variants in the Petrarca editions.

Sure, these pictures have the theme, that Eternity wins over the 5 figures or wins over Time, a theme which became popular especially in France.


Is it impossible, that the old man in the bathtub with two younger girls was meant as "Father Time"? Just in the case of a funny painter in the year 1452?
Well, might be, that the figure left is a man. Father Time with Adam and Eve.

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

Adam is indeed interesting.

Adam was created at the 6th day, and that was the 6th of April.
Jesus died at a 6th of April.
Petrarca met Laura at the 6th of April 1327.
3x7 years later ...
Laura closed eyes and died at the same day (6th of April, but 1348) in the same hour of the day, when they had met for the first time.

Petrarca was crowned 1341 as poetus laureatus. I read, that this was curiously a 9th of April.

Petrarca wrote c. 1341 (the time, when he wrote Africa) a series of biographies of famous men.
One book contained 24-36 (depending on the edition) male persons. These persons appeared all in Africa.
The second book contained 12 biographies, more mythical persons. The first of them was Adam.
Adam - Noah - Nimrod - Ninus - Semiramis - Abraham - Isaac - Jacob - Joseph - Moses - Jason - Hercules

De viris illustribus ... (Petrarch)

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

Connection between Adam and 6th of April


Ge­denk­tag ka­tho­lisch: 23. Ja­nu­ar, 24. De­zem­ber
Ge­denk­tag evan­ge­lisch: 24. De­zem­ber (EKD)
19. De­zem­ber (LCMS)

Ge­denk­tag or­tho­dox: vor­letz­ter Sonn­tag im Ad­vent
Er­in­ne­rung an die Ver­trei­bung aus dem Pa­ra­dies: letz­ter Sonn­tag vor der Fas­ten­zeit (= Kä­se­sonn­tag / Sonn­tag der Ver­ge­bung)

Ge­denk­tag ar­me­nisch: 26. De­zem­ber
li­tur­gi­sche Feier am 2. Don­ners­tag nach dem Ver­klä­rungssonn­tag
Ge­dächt­nis der Ver­trei­bung aus dem Pa­ra­dies: 2. Sonn­tag der Fas­ten­zeit

Ge­denk­tag kop­tisch: 1. April

Ge­denk­tag äthio­pisch-or­tho­dox: 1. April

Ge­denk­tag sy­risch-or­tho­dox: 29. Au­gust, Diens­tag nach Os­tern
To­des­tag im Alter von 930 Jah­ren
Tag sei­ner Er­schaf­fung und To­des­tag: 6. April

Name be­deu­tet: der Mann aus Erde / der Mensch (hebr.)

Ur­va­ter der Mensch­heit
* (nach jü­di­scher Zeit­rech­nung:) 13. Ok­to­ber 3761 v. Chr.
† (nach jü­di­scher Zeit­rech­nung:) 2831 v. Chr.

From "Petrarch in English" by Thomas Roche ... 22&f=false


Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

I should have said only the CY Chariot has an attribute of Chastity (yes the PMB and Dick have a woman, but I believe both are Milanese and close to the original rationale for why the Charioteer was female - it was Bianca as the founder of the Sforza off-shoot of the Visconti least how Sforza propaganda would have put it, and she is only in the guise of chastity in her wedding dowry CY deck). And the Dick example you provided has zero to do with Chastity - if anything it is justice or a ruler, holding the orb of rulership along with a sword.

The bottom line is you are pushing for Petrarch and one of the few trumps that can be explicitly linked to his 6 subject scheme - the Chariot-as-chastity - is abandoned after the CY as there is no longer a single attribute of Chastity (same with the World-as-fame - after the CY there is no longer an attribute of Fame so there is zero connection of Petrach's Fama trionfi to tarot after the CY deck). How is the below PMB trump Chastity? And clearly they knew of the CY version, so why completely abandon the Chastity connection if Petrarch was the meaning and source?

As for your French examples of Eternity (Pesselino on the other hand is contemporary, in time and location) - which look nothing like the tarot trump at all events - is typical of your wayward searching, far and wide from tarot proper. Especially off base is this comment of yours: "...that Eternity wins over the 5 figures or wins over Time, a theme which became popular especially in France." Never in tarot, and you counted two of God's angels in the PMB Judgement example as "won over" (the angels don't need to be won over), something you threw out there to try to match the number of five figures beneath the image not even labeled eternity but "Le Triumphe de Dvinite". At all events, no early source ever confuses Judgement with Eternity - that is something you made up. Piscina merely describes the Marseilles version while the Anonymous Discorso calls Judgement by its correct name: "He is represented by Justice, because at Judgement day he will be a most righteous and severe Judge, repaying everyone according to their deeds" (Caldwell translation, 2010: 63) Instead of searching the corpus of tarot you have searched through the corpus of illustrated Petrarch editions, which are not in any way equivalent to tarot.

The bottom line for your Petrach theory: half of the 6 Petrarch themes disappear altogether after the CY deck - the winged trumpet on the "World" and the Chasity's jousting shield are not to be seen again and no Petrarchan attribute replaces them; Eternity was never even present - wholly a re-imagining of Judgement by you. Why the six Petrarch themes would have ever been combined with 8 or 10 or 16 other unconnected themes to begin with to create a tarot deck is a problem that leads you even further into convoluted reasoning.

The proof you are dead wrong about the earliest known Judgement as some form of Eternity is written on the very card itself!

CY Judgement detail.JPG
(52.78 KiB) Not downloaded yet
surgite to Judicium - "Arise to judgment"


Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky


The large colour image Huck provided is the Issy Chariot, so-called because owed by the Musée français de la Carte à jouer, at Issy-les-Moulineaux, France. This card belongs with a Queen of Cups and Knight of Coins at the National Museum at Warsaw (Kaplan I, p. 109), and a Queen of Coins that was sold at auction in 2005.
See -

Because they recall the school of Cosimo Tura, Depaulis gives their provenance as Ferrara, circa 1455 (there may be other reasons for dating and provenance I don't recall).

The heraldry of the coin held by the Queen and Knight is clear, and should give some known relationship if not date. I don't know if the object held by the charioteer bears any heraldry.

The "Dick" Huck refers to is a half card of the Chariot on the Dick Sheet, shown at the second link above.

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