Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#32
Huck wrote:
01 Jul 2018, 14:02
Now to the 5x14-theory. Around 1440 a sort of Trionfi sequence by Petrarca became possibly influential on the card game called "Trionfi".....

Petrarca's work had a row with 6 allegorical figures:
1. Love
2. Chastity
3. Death
4. Fame
5. Time
6. Eternity

3 of these names are easily recognized as playing cards in the Sforza deck:
1 Love = (6) Love
3 Death = (13) Death
5 Time = (9) Father Time

More hidden are Chastity, Fame and Eternity

7, the chariot, has a female rider, and naturally she presents Chastity, cause she presents the bride on the journey to her new place, celebrated by a Trionfi. Wedding celebrations were often connected to such a journey.

14=20 Jugement (the dead people come to life again) presents Eternity
and 8 Justice isn't just Justice, but Fame...

This Justice with a sword is in its context the Fame figure of Petrarca.


There are so many glossing over of the facts in order to make the Petrarch theory work that it still makes the head spin.

No one in Quattrocento northern Italy would make the equation of Justice with sword = Fama without an an attribute of Fama. (hell, the Peselino c. 1450 example of Fame at the end of my post doesn't even hold a sword]

Chariot-as-Chastity only exist in a single exemplar, the CY (which speaks of a bride's chastity, Bianca's, versus the abstract virtue, and indeed Chasitity's shield is personalized with the Visconti radiate dove, not some generic "chastity" symbol). Moreover, If Petrarch was the organizing principle why does every other example of the Chariot show a MALE???

Especially vexing is your continued assumption that the surviving PMB cards somehow form a complete tarot set (instead of the consensus opinion that these are surviving cards forming part of a deck). At all events, most of these have NOTHING to do with Petrarch:

Magician (1 in the game with the Milanese order) [not in Petrarch]
Popess (2) [not in Petrarch]
Empress (3) [not in Petrarch]
Emperor (4) [not in Petrarch]
Pope (5) [not in Petrarch]
Love (6)
Chariot (woman on chariot) (7) [only in the CY]
Justice (with knight) (8) [not in Petrarch]
Father Time (with hourglass) (9) [I would argue this is Saturn, but besides the point]
Wheel (10) [not in Petrarch, and Time can't be represented twice as both the "Hermit" and "Wheel"]
(0 or 11 ?) = Fool [not in Petrarch]
Hanging Man (Traitor) (12) [not in Petrarch]
Death (13)
(14 ? or 20) Jugement [not in Petrarch, and is not Eternity, which contemporary depiction has God in heaven with angels, not salvation and damning of those on earth; the Pesellino example of Petrarch's Eternity makes this abundantly clear below, showing the sequence of Fame (sans sword), Time and Eternity]
Image

Petrarch is merely part of the ambient culture that helps illuminate the meaning of the trumps, but in now way served as the template for the trumps. Stop pounding square pegs into round holes.

Phaeded

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#33
3 Pisces, a Sun, and the element of Earth

I've been distracted looking at Minchiate cards and haven't gotten past the first 5 lines of Huck's post. And here is more:

This is the Pisces from the reproduction deck listed on WWPCM, described as:
"Al Leone" (Bologna, Italy)
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine" (97 cards), c.1790
reprint by "Edizioni del Prado"/Ediciones del Prado, Madrid, Spain:
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone", 2004
dimension 60x105 mm.
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05114/d05114.htm
Repro pisces RS50.jpg
Repro pisces RS50.jpg (60.59 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
--------
And here is the Pisces from a website: Peter Endebrock's Playing-card Pages
http://www.endebrock.de/coll/pages/i31.html
( The link in WWPCM, to www.unics.uni-hannover.de/rrzn/endebroc ... s/i31.html no longer works)
Endebrock's description
This is a Minchiate pack made presumably in the first half of the 18th century. The maker's name ('Al Mondo'), which is more of a brand name, is on the back. He was presumably working in Bologna. A possibility might be David e Fratelli from Bologna who worked in the 18th century using 'Al Mondo' - this would mean that the cards are earlier. Another maker using 'Al Mondo' was Antonio de Maria from Milano, he worked 1811 to 1817.
Endebrock's pisces Crop RS50.jpg
Endebrock's pisces Crop RS50.jpg (55.09 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
Endebrock's deck is a folded-over one, you can see how the folded paper covers part of the printing in the upper left corner. That alone tells us these are not images of the reproduction. The stenciling is obviously different than the reproduction, but I was unable to find a definite difference in the printing, although the Endebrock deck seems to have been printed on less-worn blocks.

----------------------------
And here is a card I posted earlier, from a deck at the Cooper Hewitt museum in New York, about which they provide no information at all, except when they were given it, 1909. This design museum organizes its collection by color. They have 35 cards, all of them trumps.
https://collection.cooperhewitt.org/obj ... ge-166934/
166934_96fc42b7d69fe19e_x_RS10.jpg
166934_96fc42b7d69fe19e_x_RS10.jpg (52.94 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
This is not the same woodblock, although it has many points of similarity, to the Endebrock and the reproduction decks.

---------
Another early Minchiate deck is known to me only from a picture of 16 cards laid on an orange background, crediting Bibat Museo Fournier de Naipes de Álava
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... t_019a.jpg
I think 8 of them are trumps:
Second row: 39 Mondo / 10 - Chariot, has X / 15 - Casa diavolo, I can't see the XV / 40 Fama, no number /
Third row: Fool, (I think) no number / 12 - Hanged man, has XII / 38 - Sun, three men, no number / 13 Death, with scythe, on a horse, has XIII
Fourth row, the second card might be Star but I think it's Queen of Cups

There is no Pisces.
Three dudes in the sun.png
Three dudes in the sun.png (232.12 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
These trumps resemble the Cooper Hewitt ones quite a lot. These cards have checkered borders, like another (but much fancier) reproduction deck, that of "Il Meneghello"
"Minchiate Fiorentine"
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05113/d05113.htm
However the borders on the "orange background" cards look like they are folded over, showing a checkered replacement backing sheet. They may or may not have had borders on the fronts when first printed.

--------------------------
And finally WWPCM has a deck they call
"unknown" (Firenze, Italy) deck "Florence Minchiate"(97 cards), c.1700 (?)
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02057/d02057.htm
This is not a reproduction deck, and WWPCM has only 14 trumps of it.
Here is the element of EARTH
someone's XXII Earth RS50.jpg
someone's XXII Earth RS50.jpg (68.85 KiB) Viewed 1785 times
Again, a folded-over deck, I think.
------------
So we have a total of five decks, all more or less the same. The only complete one is the Endebrock one. But the Cooper Hewitt one is fairly complete for the trumps. The Cooper Hewitt deck, and the orange background cards, and WWPCM's "unknown" deck, may be quite a bit earlier than the Endebrock and "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone" decks, possibly the difference between c.1700 and c. 1790. These are the earliest Minchiate decks for which we have online images as far as I can find. The Cooper Hewitt deck is quite an addition to our set of images as early as this, if it is really among the early ones: I will look more and decide what I think.

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#34
A fourth Pisces
LoScarabeo 1725 Pisces RS50.jpg
LoScarabeo 1725 Pisces RS50.jpg (60.2 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
Now I am even more confused. This is from what the WWPCM calls the "Carte di Etruria" (Italy), c.1725 / reprint by "LoScarabeo" (Italy) deck "Antiche Minchiate Etruria", 1996.
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05115/d05115.htm
I've looked at a lot of 18th cent. prints, but don't remember any useful date information about them. All my brain holds now is playing cards. And colored playing cards as early as 1725 are stenciled and they aren't stenciled very well. This has got shading. Is this lithograph?

Also, this image was sent I gather by an unknown questioner to a third party ("information of Domenico Starna (Roma)") who identified it as the LoScarabeo reproduction. However the folding over of the back is quite visible. Did LoScarabeo just photograph and reproduce the folded-over original?

Although I have been trying to go through Huck's posts in the order received, I couldn't help but notice the most recent post, with several good things on it.
Fournier museum, Wikipedia indeed has a page about the Fournier museum, and that Wiki page has a link labeled "official website", but that link takes you to the page about the Fournier museum in a Basque tourist site, listing local tourist attractions. (Fortunately the page is not in Basque, just Spanish). But I looked further, and I found a link on that page, to a combined catalog of several local Euskadi museums, of which Fournier seems to be the largest (online collection).
https://apps.euskadi.eus/emsime/colecci ... va/museo-2
If you go there and type in for example "Baraja" and Buscar, you get thousands of hits, (while "Naipes" for some reason returns zero. Go figure.) I easily found Florentine Minchiate. None of the buttons seems to be Spanish for "download" however.

LoScarabeo site and letarot Both good ideas. I should read Andy's Playing Cards on minchiate as well.

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#35
I've seen an impressive youtube movie about the museum. There is more than 1 movie at youtube about it.

You can write to the owner of the WWPCM, he's a friend. Sascha. Trionfi.com cooperates with him. But he has trouble with his health, and his English is not the best. Complicated questions might be too much for him. He has a lot of cooperating partners who helped him with pictures. Other collectors.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#36
I keep sitting down to actually read Huck's post and keep finding more Minchate decks. I figured out how to download from the Fournier museum. Here is a Sun
Paragone sun.jpg
Paragone sun.jpg (101.75 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
This is from a set of 17 cards held by the museum made by "Paragone" - the name is on the back. Nevertheless the museum says the Autoría is Doni Aldini (Italia). I can't find any such person or thing, although hits on "Aldini" seem to cluster in Bologna. I see a reference to "three celebrated Italian printers called the Aldini, father, son, and grandson, all distinguished by their talents and industry." -- wait, they're talking about Aldus Manutius! Somehow I don't think he printed Minchiate cards. These aren't exactly Aldine Press quality. "Paragone," which is what the cards actually say, is listed as a card maker, of the early 18th century, probably of Florence, on the International Playing-Card Society's page, called Pattern Sheet 28, Earlier Minchiate pattern
https://i-p-c-s.org/pattern/ps-28.html

To to see these Paragone cards, go here.
https://apps.euskadi.eus/emsime/colecci ... utor-50732
then click on the thumbnail on the search results page -- don't go first to the "more info" page. That brings up the image in high res, and you can save it.

The cards are called Coloreado con trepas; Xilografía. And "trepas" must mean stencil. I found this at a site on the history of printing: "El color en la xilografía aparece desde hace mucho. Dejando a un lado las trepas (coloreado con plantillas) o las estampas iluminadas, ...", and plantillas, for sure, are stencils.

So I think there may be quite a few decks out there, for which we can find good colored hi-res images.

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#37
Here is what I might write to Sasha. Tell me what you think:

Thank you for your useful website the World Web Playing Card Museum. On your page on the "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone", at:
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05114/d05114.htm
you link to a page belonging to Peter Endebrock, showing a Minchiate deck with the label "Al Mondo." This page has moved. The new address is:
(in English) http://www.endebrock.de/coll/pages/i31.html
(in deutscher Sprache) http://www.endebrock.de/coll/pages-de/i31.html

Museums are more and more scanning prints and drawings, and making them available online. This includes playing cards, so now decks which were not available to Tarot researchers before, or only available as black and white scans of book pages, or only scans of a few of the cards, can now be downloaded in high quality images. In the last couple of days only, I have come across two Minchiate decks, neither complete. One is here, from the Museo Fournier de Naipes de Álava: click on:
https://apps.euskadi.eus/emsime/colecci ... utor-50732
then, to get each image, click on the thumbnail on that page. This will bring up the image in high resolution, so it can be downloaded. There are 17 cards, and an image of the back of one. It says "Paragone."

The other deck is located at the Cooper Hewitt Design Museum in New York, here
https://collection.cooperhewitt.org/objects/404574599/
this is only trumps, but it is 35 of them. The web page has no information about the deck. Credit: Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum

I am finding decks by the dozen, of regular and tarot cards, where the images available from these major museums, are either better resolution, or of more cards in the deck, than the cards of those same decks to be found on tarot websites. There doesn't seem to be a central place to put these links. If you are interested in having such links on your website, I have many more. (I can send an illustrative card image with each link.) There are many more decks just from the Fournier museum alone.

I am also thinking of creating .jpg images of single cards, when what I download is many cards spread out and photographed as one image (as are the cards from Fournier). There are also many uncut printed sheets. The sheets of course contain valuable information, but to have the individual cards as separate images also, allows side-by-side comparison of cards. I don't know what to do with these card image .jpgs. This will be a large amount of data and I don't suppose you would be interested in hosting so much. I am wondering if Wikimedia will want them.

respectfully,

Sandy Hodges

Re: Biblical virtues and lights in the sky

#38
Here is a collection of cards from Bologna and Florence in the British Museum collection, it includes several Minchiate types, plus tarot, tarochinni and others:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... 21%7C38226

note: for higher resolutions, click on the 'image service' button below the image you are interested in and the museum emails you a higher resolution image (you have to register, but it's free)

Minchiate decks at the BnF:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/ ... 22image%22
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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