Questions of dating of Payen family card-maker's signs:

#1
Here are Payen signs from the four of coins, Jean Payen 1743 & Jean-Pierre Payen 1713:

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What seems odd to me is that the right and left 'petals' of the knot on the 1713 seem to show the letters P & V, which suggests Payen Veuve, the wife and widow of Jean Payen le Jeune active c 1760 to 1780s (she actually lived until the early 1800s, but according to Chobaut was active as cardmaker between these dates) -
but what would her initials be doing on a 1713 deck? Is it a printing from an old mold adapted by her?

According to Chobaut;

"In 1694, Jean Payen bought the place Saint-Didier, and in 1697, he acquired the paper mill of Trévousc, near Entraigues, that his descendants will preserve until 1774, He died, in a very easy situation, in 1731. His eldest son, Jean (1680-1758) succeeds him at Saint-Didier, then the two sons of the latter, Jean-Pierre 'le cadet' (1708 - 1761), and Pierre Jean 'le jeune' (1719-1764), Pierre-Jean le jeune is succeeded by his widow, Anne-Marie Boujay, and finally, the son of this last, Laurent-Joseph Payen, from 1782 until the Revolution."

On the widow Payen I found this:

From Dictionnaire des journaux 1600-1789:

A Avignon, chez la veuve Payen le Jeune, place Saint-Didier. Imprimeur: Jacques Garrigan jusqu'au n° V, puis J.B. Delorme et F. Guibert à partir du n° VI (19 déc. 1769).
translated by google (tidied up a little) :

After the occupation of Avignon and of Comtat by the troops of Louis XV and the decision to unite these two states to the Crown, the Avignon Courrier was banned from July 1768. Its editor, François Morénas, then asked for authorization to publish in Avignon a sheet of posters, announcements and divers notices comparable to those already existing at Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse, & c.

The French government granted the requested permission, and Morénas made a notarized agreement, November 19, 1768, with Marie-Anne Boujai, widow of Jean-Pierre Payen called the Younger, paper merchant of Avignon. In the association formed by this contract, Morénas gave the permission he had obtained, while the widow Payen took charge of printing and distribution of a prospectus for the new newspaper and installation of an office to receive the correspondence (in fact, this office was simply established in her shop at Place Saint-Didier).

Subsequently, the supply of paper would fall to her, while Morénas undertook to provide the copy regularly. Other expenses (printing costs, subscription with the post office, etc.) would be deducted from the profits of the company before sharing between the two partners. The first issue appeared on November 21, 1768, and to win the subscribers, they were promised that the term of their subscription would be counted as from January 1, 1769. The benefits of such a sheet probably did not appear obvious, since in a warning published in No. IV (12 Dec. 1768) Morénas felt compelled to justify the interest of his enterprise. But in No. XI (Jan. 30, 1769), the editor triumphed: "The indulgence of the public has manifested itself to us unequivocally; the number of subscribers, surpassing our wishes, matched our expectations. " However, there are no figures to support this beautiful statement.

The departure of Morénas for Monaco, where he would resurrect a Courier (the event is announced in No. VII, Monday, Jan. 2, 1769) would not have had any adverse consequences for the newspaper, which continued its publication under the widow Payen, at least until September 1769 (No. XLIII, Wednesday, Sept. 13, 1769). It is probable that there was an interruption, since the last number known, published under the same title, is presented as "First weekly sheet". It is dated Friday, January 3, 1772. The office is still with the widow Payen, and the printer is Fr. Guibert. No other copy of this new newspaper is known, which must have disappeared soon after.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Gyrofalcones and Crowned Dolphins

#2
Here is a Payen envelope for an ordinary pack of cards, from Bancassa branch:
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Here is Veuve Payen envelop for an ordinary pack of cards, St Didier branch:
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The central motif appears to be some kind of bird of prey:
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I think possibly it is meant to be a gyrofalcon, a symbol of Avignon:
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On the cartouche at the bottom of the 1713 two of cups, often reserved along with shield on the four of coins for cardmakers details or signs, there are two crowned dolphins, curved back to back, a shape which seems to be suggested by the bottom curves of the knotted 'petals' on the four of coins:
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If the letters P & V do indeed relate to the widow Payen, which would imply a modification to the original mold, has the two crowned dolphins sign also been added? Or is it an old Payen family sign?

If it was a new sign added by the widow Payen, an explanation of its meaning could possibly be indicated in the article I posted in previous post:

quote:

"After the occupation of Avignon and of Comtat by the troops of Louis XV and the decision to unite these two states to the Crown, the Avignon Courrier was banned from July 1768. Its editor, François Morénas, then asked for authorization to publish in Avignon a sheet of posters, announcements and divers notices comparable to those already existing at Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse, & c.

"The French government granted the requested permission, and Morénas made a notarized agreement, November 19, 1768, with Marie-Anne Boujai, widow of Jean-Pierre Payen called the Younger, paper merchant of Avignon. In the association formed by this contract, Morénas gave the permission he had obtained, while the widow Payen took charge of printing and distribution of a prospectus for the new newspaper and installation of an office to receive the correspondence (in fact, this office was simply established in her shop at Place Saint-Didier)."

If, indeed, the P & V = the widow Payen; could the two crowned dauphin be a new sign adapted by the Payen to represent to return of Avigon and Comtat to the Crown? Or are the two crowned dolphins in fact an older Payen family cardmaker's sign, going back at least to Jean-Pierre Payen? As it also includes the name J Piere Payen I think it being original to the 1713 mold is the more likely -- Is there some other connection between the crowned dolphin motif and Avignon? [As there is between the Gyrofalcone and Avignon]
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Payen, Goldschmnidt & Avignon?

#3
The Payen crowned dolphins reminded me of the Goldschmnidt crowned dolphin, is there an older connection between this motif and Avignon?
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Questions of dating of Payen family card-maker's signs:

#4
SteveM wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 10:32
Here are Payen signs from the four of coins, Jean Payen 1743 & Jean-Pierre Payen 1713:

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BUT -- here is the four of coins from the Novara tarot, Italian 19th century:
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So -- does this mean that it isn't a Payen enseigne at all? Or simply that Novara used the Payen as a model for part of his deck, down to copying the Payen's sign on the four of coins?

I say part because other cards of the Novara are different, the King of Coins for example has two coins, as with other Italian decks:
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Questions of dating of Payen family card-maker's signs:

#5
Aha! The looped cord with makers initials goes back to the 15th century, at least with the Franco-Spanish suited Aluette decks : here is the Antoine de Logiriera, Toulouse 1484-1512 --
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Payen, Goldschmnidt & Avignon?

#7
SteveM wrote:
05 Feb 2018, 11:10
The Payen crowned dolphins reminded me of the Goldschmnidt crowned dolphin, is there an older connection between this motif and Avignon?
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Hi Steve
Avignon and the Payen card makers :

La ville d'Avignon possède une tradition reconnue liée au Tarots dits de Marseille, avec notamment le Tarot de Jean et Jean-Pierre PAYEN,, maîtres cartiers avignonnais au XVIIIè siècle. Le maître cartier DODAL était lui originaire d'Avignon ...


In the past, I had followed two paths. Of interest ? I believe so in the hypothesis of a Payen, Goldschmnidt & Avignon connection

Two different and separated "discoveries" :

1.Cartes « Goldschmidt » related to Provence : King René and Tavernier : the command of King René to card paintor Tavernier
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&p=17974&hilit= ... non#p17974
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..

Abbé G Arnaud D'AgnelLes Comptes du Roi René Page 198 Entry 565 publiés d'après les originaux conservés aux Archives des Bouches du Rhône Tome Premier
Paris Librairie Alphonse Picard et Fils Librairie des Archives Nationales et de la Société de l' Ecole des Chartes 1908


...
About Tavernier, Avignon maitre cartier et peintre
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&hilit=tavernier&start=150
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&hilit=tavernier&start=160
King René : from Cossa to De la Rovere : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&hilit=tavernie ... 160#p18227


2.The Chief of the Conjuration antiMedicis Jacoppo Pazzi was in fact member of the Crescent order , Consul of Avignon and Maître d Hotel of King René
Jacques de Pazzi = Jacoppo Pazzi
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&p=18234&hilit= ... non#p18234



I hope you'll find the material provided interesting!
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

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