Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#32
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
07 Dec 2017, 23:24

Yes, it couldn't be earlier than late 2004 in any case, since I didn't start working at the library until May 2004, and didn't start making the digital catalogue of the library until the fall of that year.
There is a more exact date, as I quoted you in another AE post, with date of (TarotL) source:

quote:
"Yet among invented games are `pages', in which, while being played,
certain traces of learning are even found, as in Tarots, and in those
which are printed together with the sentences of the sacred
scriptures and philosophers, by the printer Wechel of Paris. Human
desire squanders all the rest, along with those like them, where
money comes in the middle, and that desire is going to be felt."

Inventi tamen ludi sunt foliorum, in quibus dum luditur, vestigia
quoque quaedam eruditionis apparent, ut in Tarotiis, & iis cum quibus
excusae sunt unà sententiae sacrae paginae & philosophorum, apud
VVechellum Lutetiae typographum. Caeterum, & illis & similibus
abutitur humana cupiditas, dum prodit in medium pecunia, & habendi
desiderium.

[Pierre Gregoire, "Syntagma Juris Universi" (Lyons, 1597), Part III,
Bk. XXXIX, §4 (p. 464)]

end quote from:
Source and translation: Ross G. Caldwell in post to TarotL group September 5, 2004

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=41
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#33
I wrote
Then he adds a couple of sources which I think are new to us.
I stand corrected. These sources were only new to me. Thanks for posting your 2009 article, Ross, I hadn't been aware of it; there are quite a few things there I didn't know. Your translations are really good, too; I could have saved myself and Andrea some effort. And thanks to both of you for tracking down the Tarotiis discussions on the tarot forums. That Aeclectic thread was quite interesting in general.

A link to Ross's Proto-historiography article

#35
On my computer Ross's article, which he posted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1216&sid=caff7d800 ... =20#p19828 is now removed "due to copy enfringement". Does that mean that any article published in The Playing Card is condemned to the relative oblivion of those few people who happen to subscribe to that journal, unless they know what they are looking for and remember to use the search engine "Ask Alexander"? I hope not!

Anyway, the article is at

https://askalexander.org/display/22536/ ... oriography

Like the fool in the tarot

#36
One more translation has been posted, that of "Like the 'Fool of the tarot' of Carducci, Or, Italy is not awake", at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=650&lng=ENG. Andrea acquaints us with several pieces of Carducci's writing, translated with the aid of several email communications between Andrea and myself. Andrea sees parallels between Italy as seen by Carducci and Italy now., that Italy is "like the fool of the tarocchi" in the eyes of nations to the north of it, and to an extent not undeserved.

However the expression "like the fool in the tarot" seems to mean different things to different peop.e

Here is where the expression "like the fool in the tarot" appears in Carducci's work (in bold).
“E in quell’anno [1866] l’Italia ebbe inoculato il disonore: cioè la diffidenza e il disprezzo fremente di se stessa, il discredito e il disprezzo sogghignante delle altre nazioni. Sono acerbe parole quelle che io scrivo, lo so. Ma anche so che per un popolo che ha nome dall’Italia non è vita l’esser materialmente raccolto e su’ l rifarsi economicamente, e non avere né un’idea, né un valore politico, non rappresentare nulla, non contar nulla, essere in Europa quello che è il matto nel giuoco de’ tarocchi: peggio, essere un mendicante, non più fantastico né pittoresco, che di quando in quando sporge una nota diplomatica ai passanti sul mercato politico, e quelli ridono: essere un cameriere che chiede la mancia a quelli che si levano satolli dal famoso banchetto delle nazioni, e quasi sempre, con la scusa del mal garbo, la mancia gli è scontata in ischiaffi. ...

("And in that year [1866] Italy was inoculated with dishonor: that is, the mistrust and contempt of itself, discredit and contempt of other nations. These words that I write are dreary, I know. But I also know that for a people named by Italy it is not life to be physically harvested for making money economically, and to have neither an idea nor a political value, to represent nothing, to count for nothing, to be in Europe what the Fool is in the game of tarot: worse, being a beggar, no more fantastic or picturesque, than from time to time a diplomatic note goes to the passers-by on the political market, and they laugh; being a waiter asking for a tip from those who sat down to the famous banquet of nations, and almost always, with the apology of stomach-ache, the tip has taken him in the pits. ..."
The word "like" does not appear here in front of "the Fool is in the game of tarot". But it can perhaps be understood.

Andrea also refers us to another essay in which he cited authors on this expression., at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=ENG) and correspondingly in Italian. The first is from Giovanni Maria Cecchi (Florence, 1518-1587)
Her. E a Napoli?
Che mi facevan quelle Gentildonne?
E quelle Principesse? E se e’ ve n’è,
Non se ne parli, Io ero tra loro (come
Si dice) il Matto ne’ Taroch
i: e ’l sale
Delle vivande loro, e de’ banchetti.

(Hercules. And in Naples? What did those gentlewomen do to me? And those Princesses? If they are really noblewomen, it is better not to tell. I was among them (as it is said) the Fool in the Tarot [the most desired], like salt in food and during banquets.)
The phrase "the most desired" is an explanatory comment that Andrea suggested. Of this dialogue Andrea says:
In the sixth scene of Act Three, on the occasion of a dialogue between a bold-talking Hercules and his admirer Pecchia, the author puts in Hercules’ mouth an expression by which the bold talker wants to underline his own importance: “I was among them (as it is said) the Fool [Matto] of the Tarot”, which had become a typical idiom in the Renaissance, as the phrase “as it is said” put in parentheses suggests. From this phrase it is evident that at that time the Fool was the most important card, as was this Hercules for women, and as salt in banquets.
This case, like Carducci's does not use the word "come" (like, as), but it can be understood. Here the comparison to "the fool of the tarot",is quite the opposite of "of no value". Or is the writer speaking ironically? I don't think so, because the Fool really is of great value, one of the highest point-getters as well as being a card that can be played at any time, to avoid losing another valuable card, and returned to the one playing to it at the end of the game, It also can get points by filling in for other cards in combinations, in some versions of the game.

I think it is for the latter two reasons that Sallie Nichols says, in her 1980 book Jung and Tarot (pp. 23-24),
There is an old Italian saying, still current, "To be like the Fool in Tarocchi," (Tarot) which means to be welcome everywhere.
In that case, perhaps what the phrase means for Cecchi is not "the most desired" but "welcome everywhere", as salt is in eating, or banquets. are among meals.

Andrea's next example is from Giuseppe Baretti (published 1779):
"La Cattedrale di Westminster, cioè la Badìa, s’ ha pure anch'essa la sua considerevole magnitudine, quando non si paragoni al nostro Duomo di Milano, che la vince a più doppj, vuoi in misura, vuoi in marmi, o vuoi in adornezza. La Badìa è d'architettura gotica, e bujamente maestosa, comechè d'uno stile diverso da quello del nostro Duomo. Chi ne fosse l' architetto non lo so. Gli è in esso che sono riposti i cadaveri di molti Re, di molti letterati, di molti guerrieri e di molti artefici singolari e famosi a' loro dì: La più parte degl' insigni poeti inglesi hanno quivi o l'ossa, o la statua, o il busto, o almeno una lapida. Fra di essi, come il matto ne' tarrochi, v' è Saint-Evremond (15), francese, di corta suppellettile (16) tanto in filosofia quanto in poesia. Un suo aulico inglese lo fece seppellire in essa, pagando non so quanti danari. E qui bisogna dirvi che l'onore di far sotterrare se stesso o altri in quella celebre Badìa si paga a contanti"

("Westminster Cathedral, which is to say the Abbey, has a considerable magnitude if not compared to our Cathedral in Milan, which wins double, whether you want it in measurement, or marble, or ornamentation. The Abbey is in Gothic style and majestically dark, in a different style than our Cathedral. I don’t know who the architect was. In it there are many cadavers of kings, writers, warriors, and singular artisans famous in their lifetime. The majority of the great English poets have their bones here. or a statue or bust, or at least a stone. Among them, like the fool [matto] of the tarot, is Saint-Evremond (14), a Frenchman, of few furnishings (15), as little in philosophy as in poetry. An English friend of his buried him in the church, paying much money. I have to say that the honour of being buried or burying someone else in that famous Abbey is to be paid for in cash.”)
Here we finally do get "come" before "fool". But what does it mean here? On the one hand, he is a non-entity among the greats. On the other hand, if he is welcome here, he is welcome anywhere. In other words, just as the fool of the tarot, after the hand is played (is dead, so to speak), is welcome to fit among the kings and queens to complete the combination, so is Saint-Evremond, if he brings with him enough money. Perhaps there is something of both meanings in the comparison.

There is one last example in Andrea's essay, by Giovan Battista Marino ( Naples 1569-1625),
O grand’ archimandrita degli allocchi
O supremo arcifanfano de’ cucchi,
O burbucione, o matto da' Tarocchi
E non t’accorgi omai, che tu ci hai secchi?
Vattene ad abitar tra’mammalucchi,
O farai meglio a conversar co i becchi.

(Oh great chief of fools, / oh supreme archcoxcombe of cuckoos / oh boaster, oh fool of the Tarot, / you don’t realize that now you have really bored us? / If you do not go to live among stupid people, / you’d better chat with cuckolds.)
Here the person being compared to the Fool in so far as he is of no worth. In this case, like that of Carducci, there is no "like" before "fool".

So I don't know what to think. Is Sallie Nichols right, and Carducci simply doesn't know the meaning the expression had when it became a saying, or does "like the Fool in the tarot" have different meanings, depending on the context, just as the Fool, from one perspective has the least value of all the cards, and from another point of view the most value?

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#37
Varies with context, I think --

The idiom as I have seen it in Italian dictionaries (18th century) is like the fool of the tarot, here, there and everywhere --

Or to be for everything, or in it for everything:

"Essere come il matto fra tarocchi (esser per tutto)"

Other dictionary entries have for example: S. Essere come il matto fra tarocchi, o simili, figuratamente vale Entrar per tutto. Cecch. Corr. 5. 6. Io era tra lor (come Si dice) il matto ne' tarocchi.
Image
Vocabolario degli accademici della Crusca, Volume 3 -- 1733

'like salt in food' or 'at a banquet' could mean something like 'in everything' or 'everywhere' rather than 'most desired' ? Or as you suggest, 'welcome everywhere' or 'to be gratefully accepted' [Esservi accetto grato].

Entrar per tutto, ed Esservi accetto, grato - entering for everything, and to be accepted by everyone {the -vi of essere here being the pronomial for 'to you all" 'to be to you all accepted ?), grateful - similar to Nichols 'welcome by everyone'

Another with meaning counting for nothing [non contar nulla]

Tutti lo fan trottare in su e in giù
Per cose che non vagliono una zeta
E se una scarpa si han da tirar su
Chiaman tosto e s incomoda il poeta
E il pover uomo in mezzo a quei ranocchi
Ci sta come sta il matto fra i tarocchi 18

Il poeta di teatro romanzo poetico By Filippo Pananti - 1818 (p182)

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=0U ... &q&f=false

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=0U ... &q&f=false

Note 18 to Canto XXIII = Star come il matto fra tarocchi — Entrar per tutto e non contar nulla.

(in respect of which we have the Steele sermon: 0 El Matto sie nulla (nisi velint): The Fool, thus null (unless they wish))

It could also be in reference to 'above the salt' and 'below the salt' at banquets?

"In medieval times, salt (a valuable seasoning) was placed in the middle of a dining table [bench=banquet] and the lord and his family were seated "above the salt" and other guests or servants below."
{Bit I think, most simply, salt is gratefully accepted by everone, welcomed by all}

Why is the letter H 'like the fool of the tarot', in this case in its role as substitution or ' for the convenience of some other letter, whose pronouncement would be great penalty determined without the assistance of this sign.' [Quando l' h si trova in mezzo di lettera o in fine, come s' è detto di sopra alla lettera g, ci serve,come il matto ne' tarocchi, per comodo di qualch' altra lettera, la di cui pronunzia sarebbe a gran pena determinata senza l' assistenza di questo segno.]

A Grammar of the Italian Language: With a Copious Praxis of Moral Sentences, 1778.


From moderna conversasione in diciotto dialoghi su differenti soggfth 1802, we have:
Image
To be like the fool of the tarot = se fourer partout - to place oneself everywhere, to insinuate oneself in everything, to introduce oneself to everyone, to go everywhere, to be everywhere

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=tu ... &q&f=false

The worthless fellow who takes the place of anyone and everyone = both All and Nothing
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: A link to Ross's Proto-historiography article

#39
mikeh wrote:
13 Dec 2017, 22:23
On my computer Ross's article, which he posted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1216&sid=caff7d800 ... =20#p19828 is now removed "due to copy enfringement". Does that mean that any article published in The Playing Card is condemned to the relative oblivion of those few people who happen to subscribe to that journal, unless they know what they are looking for and remember to use the search engine "Ask Alexander"? I hope not!

Anyway, the article is at

https://askalexander.org/display/22536/ ... oriography
Mike -

I noticed on a search that two Scribd results had my paper, uploaded by second parties and shorn of my name, the full title, and the Playing Card information in the indice corners. I asked them to take them down, but to leave up the one I myself uploaded.

They decided to take them ALL down. I haven't written to have the "real" one restored yet, but I will.

I have uploaded it to Academia as well, with two others -
https://www.academia.edu/6477311/Brief_ ... cartomancy
Image

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#40
At Ross's link, the essay that comes up is "A brief history of cartomancy". For "The Proto-historiography of Playing Cards" you you put that title in the box at the top, and what you get is very readable and without the requirement of registration. Or you can put in "Ross Caldwell" and click on the link with his picture, and links to all three articles come up. Thanks, Ross.

Andrea and I have now translated into English two more essays, "Pleasant Dialogues", at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=640 and "A sonnet in Modenese dialect of the XVIth Century", http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=660&lng=ENG.

With "Pleasant Dialogues" a difficulty was translating 16th century Italian Primiera game expressions, both into modern Italian and into English. We still don't know a few used in "Pleasant Dialogues". The game expressions were used by Francesco Berni in his writings on the game, and there are books in English about Berni containing translations of some of what he wrote on card games. Hopefully I will be able to access these books once the Christmas holidays are over at the libraries, to see if there are standard translations of the expressions. Meanwhile, if anyone knows a link to the relevant pages of these books (in English) on the internet, I'd appreciate having them. Nothing relevant comes up for me.

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