Visconti Ducal Crown

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Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 24 Mar 2017, 08:06

The Visconti Ducal Crown with Fronds, as can be seen on some of the vestments in the Cary-Yale:



Also on the vestments on this figure from a manuscript of the Lamentations of Pierre Salmon illuminated between 1409, date of its writing, and 1413, identified by some as Louise I, Duke of Orleans:

Image

quote:

Beltrami attributed this impresse to Gean Galéazzo Visconti who had received it from the Emperor Wenceslas, contemporary authors agree that it is only with his son Philippe-Marie that it became one of the Visconti emblems. According to various authors the latter received it from Alphonse V of Aragon as a reward for his help in connection with the capture of Naples in 1442. However, the question remains since this motto is painted, at the beginning of the fifteenth century, on the crown of a character who could be Louis d'Orleans, the son-in-law of Gean-Galeazzo Visconti, in a manuscript of the Lamentations of Pierre Salmon illuminated between 1409, date of its writing, and 1413. Plus the crown could relate to the ducal dignity acquired by John Galéas de Wenceslas in 1395. It should also be noted that there may have been some confusion and that this emblem may come from an Aragonese sovereign since Jean Ist († 1395 ) and Martin I of Aragon († 1410) make use of an emblem in the form of a double crown. It does not seem that this figure appears among the emblems of Alphonse V but his competitor, James II of Bourbon-La Marche († 1438), unhappy husband of Jeanne II of Naples, but does nevertheless appear in his seal of King of Naples.

end quote from:
http://base-devise.edel.univ-poitiers.f ... php?id=657

Detail of Louise I Duke of Orleans with crown and branches insignia, Lamentations de Pierre Salmon, BnF, Ms. Fr. 23279, fol. 2, vers 1409:

Image

Louise I, Duke of Orleans was married to Valentino Visconti, daughter of the Duke of Milan -- among their children was Charles Duke of Orleans, father of King Louise XII, whose throne then went to Francis I, to whom many of the coats of arms on the coins of the anonymous Tarot de Paris seem to be connected to, according to the ideas presented by 'Philippe' @ AT ---
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
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Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 24 Mar 2017, 08:14

One is reminded via this association of the Ducal Crown with the Duke of Orleans, which also appears on the Tarot de Marseille style Ace of Swords, that the sword in crown motif was also the coat of arms of the Maid of Orleans, Joan d'Arc (as once pointed out by Gerald Gardner, in his 'Meaning of Witchcraft') --

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 24 Mar 2017, 08:41

SteveM wrote:Louise I, Duke of Orleans was married to Valentino Visconti, daughter of the Duke of Milan -- among their children was Charles Duke of Orleans, father of King Louise XII, whose throne then went to Francis I, to whom many of the coats of arms on the coins of the anonymous Tarot de Paris seem to be connected to, according to the ideas presented by 'Philippe' @ AT ---


Grandparents of both Louise XII and Francis I; the Visconti ancestory is perhaps to be seen in the coats of arms of Charles II of Orleans, the sixth child and third son of the king of France François Ist and his wife, Claude of France , Duchess of Brittany:

Image
1531-1545 : Coats of arms of Charles II d'Orléans / III d'Angoulême (1522-1545).

which appears on the 4 of coins of the anonymous TdP, as mentioned by Philippe on thread @ AT --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby Huck on 24 Mar 2017, 09:29

As far I remember, a part of the marriage contract between Louis and Valentina considered the condition, that the male Visconti line might die (which it did in 1447) and that in this case des descendants of Louis and Valentina should be the legal heirs to the Milanese throne.
This became a life-long problem for Filippo Maria Visconti ... and later for Milan.

Emperor Charles V. didn't agree with this condition.

But to conclude, that the Tarot de Paris cause of this condition was made in the time, when all 3 sons of Francis I still lived, must not be the right conclusion. Titles and heraldry wandered from one person to the other.

Image

A part of the peace agreement in 1559 seems to have been, that Charles, duke of Orleans (likely with Visconti viper then in his heraldry), should marry an Austrian princess, Eizabeth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_W ... .281559.29
The Peace of Cateau-Cambrésis was signed between Henry II of France and Philip II of Spain on 3 April 1559, at Le Cateau-Cambrésis, around twenty kilometers south-east of Cambrai.[14] Under its terms, France restored Piedmont and Savoy to the Duke of Savoy, and Corsica to the Republic of Genoa, but retained Saluzzo, Calais and the Three Bishoprics: Metz, Toul, and Verdun.[15] Spain retained Franche-Comté, but, more importantly, the treaty confirmed its direct control of Milan, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, and the State of Presidi, and indirectly (through dominance of the rulers of Tuscany, Genoa, and other minor states) of northern Italy. The Pope was also their natural ally. The only truly independent entities on Italian soil were Savoy and the Republic of Venice. Spanish control of Italy lasted until the early eighteenth century. Ultimately, the treaty ended the 60 year, Habsburg-Valois wars.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth ... _of_France
Very early, around 1559, a match between Elisabeth and the Duke of Orléans, the future King Charles IX of France was suggested.[3] In 1562, the Maréchal de Vieilleville, a member of the French delegation sent to Vienna, after seeing the eight-year-old princess, exclaimed: "Your Majesty, this is the Queen of France!". Although Vieilleville was not entitled to make an offer, Elisabeth's grandfather, the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I, appeared interested: gifts were exchanged and contacts initiated between the two courts — but no one bothered to teach French to the young princess.


1570, 15 years old, the bride arrived. Charles, the king of France, died 1574. Elizabeth got only a daughter (1572), which died 6 years old.

The weaker part of my Tarot de Paris theory is the condition, that I've no clear idea, how Popoff identified the Gonzaga heraldry.
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Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 24 Mar 2017, 09:37

I agree that it is not necessary to conclude a period when all three sons lived -- but Philippe did not finish his presentation -- not sure what his other arguments were (or even that he was maintaining a period when all three lived*)

Huck wrote:A
The weaker part of my Tarot de Paris theory is the condition, that I've no clear idea, how Popoff identified the Gonzaga heraldry.



I think it pretty clear there is no Gonzaga heraldry - it is the crown of Spain, with double eagle the Emperor too --

the problem then is why the Emperor & King of Spain with rest of french heraldry of enemies/rivals?

SteveM

* He says (Philippe) : It must be noted that only Henri II united in himself the 4 titles as well as their coats of arms represented on the card : d'Angoulême by birth, d'Orléans as he is the second son, Dauphin and Duc de Bretagne when his elder dies in 1536.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby Huck on 24 Mar 2017, 09:49

SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote:A
The weaker part of my Tarot de Paris theory is the condition, that I've no clear idea, how Popoff identified the Gonzaga heraldry.



I think it pretty clear there is no Gonzaga heraldry - it is the crown of Spain, with double eagle the Emperor too --

the problem then is why the Emperor & King of Spain with rest of french heraldry of enemies/rivals?


Popoff was (or is ?) a specialist in heraldry, especially for matters of Gonzaga, as I understood it. Naturally the Tarot de Paris material is very difficult to interpret, very roughly designed and naturally nobody is perfect. But that Popoff assumed "Gonzaga" out of nothing is difficult to believe.

... btw. in 1558 Ferdinand I (brother of Charles V) became emperor.

... btw. Eleonore[49] (1534–1594) ∞ 1561 Guglielmo Gonzaga (1538–1587) Herzog von Mantua und Montferrat
... actually it was discussed, that Louis Gonzaga (who later got Nevers and Rethel by marriage in 1565) would get Montferrat.

Eleonore was a daughter of emperor Ferdinand. Already in 1449 another daughter had married a Gonzaga, but the husband died 1450, she became Queen of Poland instead in 2nd marriage. A grandson of Ferdinand married a Gonzaga daughter 1582.

Montferrat was of crucial importance, as it blocked the French marching route to Italy.
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Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby Phaeded on 30 Mar 2017, 01:08

SteveM wrote:Louise I, Duke of Orleans was married to Valentino Visconti, daughter of the Duke of Milan -- ...


Steve,
Perfectly reasonable to assume this influence; see Lippincott here on imprese, especially pp. 61-63 for the French influence on Italy, of which this would be yet another example: http://www.kristenlippincott.com/assets/Uploads/1990-impresa.pdf
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Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 30 Mar 2017, 03:30

Phaeded wrote:
SteveM wrote:Louise I, Duke of Orleans was married to Valentino Visconti, daughter of the Duke of Milan -- ...


Steve,
Perfectly reasonable to assume this influence; see Lippincott here on imprese, especially pp. 61-63 for the French influence on Italy, of which this would be yet another example: http://www.kristenlippincott.com/assets/Uploads/1990-impresa.pdf


Thank you for the link Phaedad :-bd
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: Visconti Ducal Crown

Postby SteveM on 30 Mar 2017, 08:37

I can not find the reference at the moment, but I am sure I have read that Alessandro Sforza had an interest in Joan of Arc, and that he named his daughter Ginevra after her -- a life of famous women book, dedicated to Ginevra Sforza, includes a biography of Joan d'Arc --

The arms of Alessandro Sforza:

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,


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