A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Dummett, Decker, Depaulis, Kaplan; here we document the people, places, and events that shaped Tarot History. (Credentials not required; but references, citations, and substantiating evidence may be requested at the door.)

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Kate on 02 Apr 2017, 02:29

Image
Detail: CVI Moon Trump

Recently, I commented on the link made by the CVI between the Chariot and Temperance via the matching six-petalled, dotted floral motif (with a seventh point at center) or Medici device portrayed on these two respective trumps.

Further, I speculated that the CVI may possibly contain additional references to the virtue, Temperance. Along these lines, I gave as an example the CVI’s Moon trump, which shows two men in the process of measuring through use of a set of compasses. In support of this argument, I cited the work by Pieter Brueghel the Elder entitled, “Temperance” from his “World of Seven Virtues,” c. 1560. You’ll note that Brueghel’s “Temperance” depicts numerous individuals employing various methods of measure, including the use of a set of compasses. (1)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... C_1560.JPG

Subsequent to my last post on this subject, I ascertained that Orcagna (Andrea di Cione) made earlier use of the compasses in relation to Temperance by c. 1355-59—viz. in his tabernacle of Or San Michele, Florence. It is difficult to obtain detailed photos of the tabernacle (the use of cameras is forbidden within the Or San Michele). However, a photograph of Orcagna’s Temperance may be found online at Google Books in Lynn White’s Medieval Religion and Technology: Collected Essays, University of California, 1978, Chapter 12, “The Iconography of Temperantia and the Virtuousness of Technology,” Figure 4 (illustrations, inserted between pp. 194 and 195).

https://books.google.com/books?id=quCh9 ... gy&f=false

The subject Orcagna work shows Lady Temperance holding a set of compasses. Like Orcagna’s other six virtues (Cardinal and Theological), it is rendered as a hexagonal relief and appears at the base of the tabernacle alongside seven octagonal reliefs pertaining to the Life of the Virgin.

According to White (pp. 189, 192), it reflects the concept of Temperance as “Misura” (“Measure”), e.g., as expressed in Brunetto Latini’s “Il Tesoretto e il Favoletto (Bk XIV).”

White then goes on to write:

“But time as well as space may be measured, and the first hint of the new icon of Temperance which was to become dominant is found almost at the same moment in Siena. In 1337-1340 Ambrogio Lorenzetti had decorated the Sala della Pace of the Palazzo Pubblico with frescos which depicted the Cardinal Virtues, including Temperance. Unfortunately, exactly the part of the painting which showed Temperance was destroyed by fire, presumably in the enthusiastic burning of tax records during the riots attending Charles IV’s visit to Siena in 1355. Lorenzetti is thought to have died in the plague of 1348; the repair of the fresco was accomplished by an unknown artist. To judge by the costumes, horse-trappings, shapes of beards, etc., in the repainted section, the new artist did not follow Lorenzetti in all details. The figure of Temperance, therefore, cannot be dated before the latter 1350’s. She is shown holding an object which has sometimes been interpreted as her traditional cup (and may have been such in Lorenzetti’s original) but which is, in fact, our earliest picture anywhere of a sandglass (Fig. 5)” (pp. 192-3).

The sandglass motif appears, of course, in the Hermit/Vecchio trump belonging to the CVI, as well as the two other, earliest handpainted decks. (See Ross Caldwell, 2009, viewtopic.php?f=12&t=334&start=70#p5301; also, Huck, 2012, viewtopic.php?f=23&t=392&start=10#p12444 .) But more on this trump in a moment.

It goes without saying that the set of compasses motif has a number of associations. That said, the use of the misura trope in the CVI’s Moon trump is curious in that it, thereby, appears adjacent the deck’s Sun trump, presumably, depicting Clotho with her spindle. It will be recalled that Clotho’s function was “to spin,” whereas, that of her sister fate, Lachesis, was “to measure”—viz. the thread of life. Mere coincidence? Doubtful. But the question then arises where within the deck’s third sequence of trumps, if at all, should we seek for the third fate, Atropos, whose function was “to cut” the thread of life?

Another remarkable feature of the CVI is the marked resemblance between the Hermit/Vecchio and the Emperor. The facial features of the two are the same, except that the Emperor presents his left profile to the viewer, whereas, the Hermit presents his right profile. The Hermit’s beard is longer, presumably, reflecting the passage of time. The Emperor’s cuirass has been discarded, appropriately, in favor of a travelling cloak and shoes for the Hermit. The gold detailing, which decorates the hem of the Emperor’s blue tunic faces left; that of the Hermit’s tunic faces right consistent with their reversed facial profiles. The five-petalled flower, which decorates the Emperor’s cuirass becomes a five-petalled, living flower at the feet of the Hermit as he, presumably, prepares to ascend the mount before him. Clearly, the two are the same man. But who or what does this man represent?

The motif of the sandglass, which is present within the CVI’s Hermit/Vecchio trump, adds another dimension. The consensus would seem to be that this motif belongs to Father Time; its use in relation to Temperance had fallen out of fashion. But if I may pose a hypothetical, what if the CVI’s Hermit/Vecchio trump in some part—and conceivably, by extension, the Emperor trump—pertained to the virtue, Temperance? And what if the CVI’s Moon trump also pertained to this virtue?

Notes:

(1) In Brueghel’s “Temperance,” the numerous individuals engaged in the so-called mechanical arts resemble the Children of Mercury. It is possible that the planetary symbol of Mercury, ruler of Gemini and Virgo, is depicted on the banner situated immediately above the actors’ stage.
Kate
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Huck on 02 Apr 2017, 18:29

Compass in connection to World

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
http://rosscaldwell.com/images/triumphs ... ylarge.jpg
(click link for larger version)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=404&start=160#p17681

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=975&start=200#p17680
Phaeded wrote:
Another precedent of Prudence-with-world, ironically from Ferrara, and indicating the whole world:
Image

Phaeded


I personally think, that the CVI had only 16 special cards, and the 3 theological virtues were replaced by Sun, Moon and a 3rd card (I assume Fool, the star is not present in the CVI), not as a reflection of the 3 moires, but as a demonstration of Florentine arts: textile-industry (sun) , astronomy with Regiomontanus and Toscanelli (moon) and literature with the Fool Morgant (written by Pulci)e.
I see the pictures more as "educational", somehow made for the young Lorenzo, when 14 years old.

Pulci, 17 years older, had a strong relation to the young Lorenzo. I think, that the Morgante was written for this opportunity. Pulci got the commission by Lorenzo's mother in 1460. In 1463 Pulci had about 15 chapters of the final text (28 chapters). Pulci had a family mill close to one of the Medici villas, likely he was engaged to pay attention on the Medici boys and their friends and to teach occasionally a little bit literature, mostly in summer holidays, when Florence was too hot.
Pulci's education had fruits Lorenzo and other friends showed literary engagement, when they were about 17.

This are two pictures made for my own considerations of a relationship between Chess and early Trionfi cards. I perceive especially the decks Cary-Yale Tarocchi and the so-called Charles VI as very relevant in the question (additionally also the Michelino deck).
My Chess Tarot hypothesis is discussed at many places in this Forum.

Cary-Yale Tarocchi
Image
with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/cy-jpg.jpg

Charles VI Tarot
Image
with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/ch-jpg.jpg

..
They were presented inside ...
viewtopic.php?f=12&p=11263#p11263


There are some similarities to the Cary-Yale Tarocchi, likely not accidental.
I think, that these cards were used to "educate with chess". Nobody wanted the gambling aspects with cards, games of skill were allowed.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Phaeded on 03 Apr 2017, 19:29

Kate,
I think the compass was too closely identified with Prudence in the mid-Quattrocento and the most prominent set of virtues in Florence - that of the Campanile and the Loggia dei Lanzi - shows Temperance holding the mixing vessels:
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH213images/campanile/south6b_temperance.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Temperance_at_Loggia_dei_Lanzi.jpg/2048px-Temperance_at_Loggia_dei_Lanzi.jpg
[the baptistery's temperance's sheathed sword is neither here nor there for this argument: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--gbTQy6I1ns/Ul8SK_Vs8gI/AAAAAAAAB3Y/mWdcUspvItM/s1600/GOOD+TEMPERANCE.JPG ]

Considering that one of the compass arms, per your detail, is placed on one of the bands of the armillary-like sphere - either the celestial equator or ecliptic - wouldn't it be most likely that the latter as indicated and the other arm attempting to indicate one of the lunar nodes for the important issue of eclipses? This is the moon card after all.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_node

Huck,
Tarot in Florence after c. 1450 likely followed the standardized convention of 22 trumps evidenced in the PMB, due to the particularly close contacts between Cosimo/Florence and F. Sforza/Milan (the only identifiable offshoot being minchiate). As you know the only outlier is the 70 card tarot reference in 1457 Ferrara, for which we can infer 14 trumps, not 16. There simply is no reference to 16 tarot trumps, no matter how badly you want to twist Marziano into tarot (different suits and wholly pagan subjects with no reference to Christianity = not tarot).

Phaeded
User avatar
Phaeded
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Huck on 03 Apr 2017, 20:39

Phaeded wrote:Huck,
Tarot in Florence after c. 1450 likely followed the Milanese convention of 22, due to the particularly close contacts between Cosimo/Florence and F. Sforza/Milan (the only identifiable offshoot being minchiate). As you know the only outlier is the 70 card tarot reference in Ferrara for which we can infer 14 trumps, not 16. There simply is no reference to 16 tarot trumps, no matter how badly you want to twist Marziano into tarot.

Phaeded


a. We have 16 trumps in the Michelino deck.
b. We have 16 cards for each suit in the Cary-Yale. It makes logic to assume, that the trump suit also contained 16 cards.
c. We have 16 special cards in the Charles VI.
d. We have a well installed chess game with 16 figures for each figure in 15th century.
f. We have the Geomantie with 16 figures.

0. We have no evidence for an early deck with 22 trumps.

I don't mind the existence of games with 22 elements. Actually I'm the only one who spends time to find information about a German lot book with 22 animals, which likely was earlier than any Trionfi decks. I can even imagine, that in the experimental phase of the Trionfi cards also games with 22 special cards existed. But, alas, there is no documentary evidence.

I naturally also have nothing against decks with 14 trumps. I would be the last, who might wish that they not existed.

I really can live very well with the idea, that various type of decks existed at the same time.

... no matter how badly you want to twist Marziano into tarot


I likely speak much more about Trionfi decks, when I talk about decks of 15th century. I mostly don't use the word "Tarot" in the context. I think, that it is correct to speak of that word, which contemporary persons in the 15th century used. If I speak of the Michelino deck, I usually say Michelino deck and not Michelino Tarot deck.

... .-) ... sure, at the Trionfi.com site we've called the Michelino deck the "oldest Tarot deck". This was necessary to wake the visitors up from their illusions about the origin of Tarot. It was 2003 and if one had spoken of a Trionfi deck, likely nobody would have been interested, because not much persons understood the word "Trionfi" ... hopefully this has changed meanwhile a little bit. It's 2017.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Phaeded on 04 Apr 2017, 17:50

Huck wrote:I mostly don't use the word "Tarot" in the context. I think, that it is correct to speak of that word, which contemporary persons in the 15th century used. If I speak of the Michelino deck, I usually say Michelino deck and not Michelino Tarot deck.


Doesn't matter what you call the Marziano/Michelino when the four suits are unrelated to trionfi and the 16 classical gods and their relationships represent a program that has nothing to do with the trumps; one can make a vague argument for Cupid (who is not driving Jupiter before him, mentioned in Marziano and of course taken from Petrarch) but his main attribute in Marziano - "girded with human hearts" - is wholly missing from the CY and PMB. The trumps of standard trionfi and Marziano are a completely separate series of subjects, and even if the same number could be proven (it never has) that would explain nothing about why completely different subjects were chosen.

We have 16 cards for each suit in the Cary-Yale. It makes logic to assume, that the trump suit also contained 16 cards.


That logic is negated by the PMB and the consensus is that the CVI is obviously an incomplete deck (like most surviving hand-painted decks). And why wouldn't Marziano follow the same logic - 16 card suits to match it's trumps? No one proposes that, so you are selectively applying "logic", no?

Find a document that explicitly associates trionfi trumps - not Marziano - with the number 16. Until then, let's all just acknowledge that your chess theory, not any sound evidence, is driving this speculation.

Phaeded
User avatar
Phaeded
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby mikeh on 05 Apr 2017, 06:57

Kate wrote
Another remarkable feature of the CVI is the marked resemblance between the Hermit/Vecchio and the Emperor. The facial features of the two are the same, except that the Emperor presents his left profile to the viewer, whereas, the Hermit presents his right profile. The Hermit’s beard is longer, presumably, reflecting the passage of time. The Emperor’s cuirass has been discarded, appropriately, in favor of a travelling cloak and shoes for the Hermit. The gold detailing, which decorates the hem of the Emperor’s blue tunic faces left; that of the Hermit’s tunic faces right consistent with their reversed facial profiles. The five-petalled flower, which decorates the Emperor’s cuirass becomes a five-petalled, living flower at the feet of the Hermit as he, presumably, prepares to ascend the mount before him. Clearly, the two are the same man. But who or what does this man represent?

Interesting idea, that they are the same person.
Image
Image
The only 15th century ruler I know of who went from ruling to being a monk is Amadeus VIII of Savoy, made duke by Emperor Sigismund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeus_V ... e_of_Savoy). That was before he was elected pope. However it was a military order of monks, so perhaps he would have kept on his cuirass. Savoy was an ally of both Milan and Florenence, and not only that, Amadeus was the younger Sforzas' step-grandfather, of a sorts (i.e. not legally), as well as being some sort of distant cousin (through an earlier Visconti-Savoy marriage).

On the other hand, many people spent time in monasteries temporarily. Cosimo il Vecchio had his own private cell at San Marco. I don't know how much the cards look like him. It doesn't have to. Another possibility: it is a family resemblance only, so related as Jupiter to Saturn, or Piero the Gouty to Cosimo il Vecchio. It does not even have to be a reference to a particular actual person, if it is an allegorical progression. In any case, there does seem to be a definite linkage intended between these cards, different stages of life modeling different teachings about life.

Phaeded. 1st reply (to your argument against Huck: What the CY takes from the Marziano, reasonably (assuming the Marziano did not have 16 cards per suit) is only the idea of 16 trumps. The CY probably, reasonably, has the additional logic of same number of suit cards as triumphs, a logic suggested in Ferrara documents for the number 14. Another consideration (to which I doubt Huck would agree): the logic of Marziano is that of 4 trumps per suit. Applying that logic to the CY, as the cataloguing descriptions inherited by the Beinecke suggests, we get the same 16. That logic was sooner or later abandoned, as was the other idea relating number of triumphs to number of suit cards.

It is purely a matter of definition and practice whether Marziano's game counts as "triumphs". Marcello in 1450 thought the application reasonable enough. So did, in the 18th century, the people who played the so-called "animal tarocks". From the name, one would think that it should differ from other games in having a set of "triumphal" cards. Gods and demigods meet that criteria, even more than barnyard animals (who triumph, alas, only in the game, whereas the gods triumph also in myth, in ancient people's allegiance, and perhaps, as the Jungians hold, in the human psyche). The Marziano is not a standard deck as later used, certainly. By that logic, a Stanley Steamer wouldn't count as an automobile (not being powered in the ways later popular), even though it was clearly a self-powered mechanical vehicle performing the same function as the old horse and carriage. For that matter, an all-electric car wouldn't count as an automobile either.
mikeh
member
 
Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Huck on 05 Apr 2017, 07:34

mikeh wrote:1st reply (to your argument against Huck: What the CY takes from the Marziano, reasonably (assuming the Marziano did not have 16 cards per suit) is only the idea of 16 trumps. The CY probably, reasonably, has the additional logic of same number of suit cards as triumphs, a logic suggested in Ferrara documents for the number 14. Another consideration (to which I doubt Huck would agree): the logic of Marziano is that of 4 trumps per suit. Applying that logic to the CY, as the cataloguing descriptions inherited by the Beinecke suggests, we get the same 16. That logic was sooner or later abandoned, as was the other idea relating number of triumphs to number of suit cards.

I don't doubt, that Marziano used the 4 suits for the 16 trumps.

For the Cary-Yale I see a relation to chess ... the position of 16 chess figures can be easily parted in groups of 4, actually there is more than one way. I guess, that these both are the most attractive (and most simple) solutions.

AAAABBBB
CCCCDDDD

ABCDDCBA
ABCDDCBA
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby mikeh on 06 Apr 2017, 00:26

What I meant, that you wouldn't agree with, was the application of that principle, of 4 triumphs per suit--which Marziano states explicitly--to the CY. You instead derive the CY's 4x4 structure from chess.
mikeh
member
 
Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Huck on 06 Apr 2017, 06:06

mikeh wrote:What I meant, that you wouldn't agree with, was the application of that principle, of 4 triumphs per suit--which Marziano states explicitly--to the CY. You instead derive the CY's 4x4 structure from chess.


But chess includes 4x4 groups ... for instance ...

2 Rooks + their pawns = 4
2 knights + their pawns = 4
2 bishops + their pawns = 4
King + Queen + their pawns = 4

or

King + its officers (Rook, Knight, Bishop at King's side) = 4
Queen + its officers (Rook, Knight, Bishop at Queen's side) = 4
4 pawns at King side = 4
4 pawn's at Queen's side = 4

The Geomancy-model also contains 4 groups

1000
0100
0010
0001

0111
1011
1101
1110

1111
0000
1100
0011

1010
0101
1001
0110
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: A definitive Medici marker on the CVI page of swords?

Postby Kate on 17 Apr 2017, 04:30

Huck:

The CVI would seem to employ considerable economy insofar as depicting more than one theme in a given trump. Like you, I believe that the CVI incorporates the three Theological Virtues. Along these lines, a contemporary practice, which I believe merits consideration, paired the Theological and Cardinal Virtues. One such model attributed to 12th Century theologian/philosopher, Alain de Lille (as cited by Lynn White, 1978), paired Faith with Prudence, Hope with Fortitude, and Charity/Love with Justice. I broached this subject with Phaeded some time ago after he posted a photo of Ambrogio Lorenzetti’s Maesta (ca. 1335)—viz. in terms of the colors associated with the Theological Virtues in Dante’s Commedia and, later, the Medici device/Magi. Of course, other related models existed. I believe that Augustine paired Faith and Justice, for instance.

http://it.wahooart.com/Art.nsf/O/8XZN7F ... aesta-.JPG

In terms of the woman with spindle depicted in the CVI Sun trump, certainly, it could allude to the Florentine textile industry, in addition to a healthy number of other persons/themes. For instance, in the Campanile’s Industries of Man series of bas-reliefs by Andrea Pisano, the West wall’s third relief known as “The First Labors of Adam and Eve” portrays Eve with a spindle as Adam sows seed. Alternatively, it has been speculated that the south wall’s bas-relief concerned with weaving depicts either Naamah (sister of Tubalcain) or the goddess, Athene, as the purported patron of that art. Given the lady’s association with the CVI Sun trump, I’m tempted to speculate that it might reflect a Neoplatonic/Ficinian influence, but this speculation is tentative at this point.
Kate
member
 

PreviousNext

Return to The Researcher's Study


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 15 guests