Re: William de Guilleville c. 1330 ; theme -1377

#3
Your anonymous author of 1822 ends by recommending "Renard le contrefait" (author unknown) for its alleged use of "cartes" in 1341. This, however, was challenged by Merlin in 1869, claiming that this, too, was a later interpolation, because a manuscript of a century earlier has only
Jouent a jeux de dez, ou de tables.
Which makes the four lines read as follows (it is Lacroix who supplies the second line, at https://books.google.com/books?id=NxtbA ... it&f=false:
Si comme fols et folles sont
Qui, pour gagner, au bordel vont,
Jouent a jeux de dez, ou tables,
Qui sont a Dieu ne sont délectable.
As opposed to the later, post-1450
Si comme fols et folles sont
Qui, pour gagner, au bordel vont,
Jouent aux dés, aux cartes, aux tables,
Qui sont a Dieu ne sont délectable.
It seems to me that Merlin's research should be confirmed by someone else. Perhaps it has been done, I don't know. He gives the manuscript numbers. See https://books.google.com/books?id=XQ0IA ... es&f=false.

Guilleville + Renart le Contrefait ; theme -1377

#4
Well, my poor French language.

You say, that we have one text stating, that the text with "cartes" is from 1341, and another version is of 1328, which has no "cartes"?

***************
btw ... The "anonymous author of 1822" seems to be Joseph van Praet (??) in this edition ...

Catalogue des livres imprimés sur vélin de la Bibliothèque du roi, Band 4
Joseph van Praet
B. Franklin, 1822
https://books.google.de/books?id=DwQ4AQ ... 41&f=false

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Van_Praet
... that seems to be more a printer and he was dead in 1822.

**************

This is the right man ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Van_Praet
... and he seems to be an expert, especially for the royal library.
Joseph Basile Bernard Van Praet (Bruges, 27 July 1754 – Paris, 5 February 1837) was a Flanders-born librarian and scholar active in France.

Bibliothèque nationale
During the French Revolution he increased the stock to three times its previous amount: the printed collection went from 300 000 to more than a million. After the fire at the Abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés (19–20 August 1794) he managed to obtain part of the stock and also made acquisitions from booksellers and in public sales. He went on to obtain complete libraries particularly in Italy. He carried on correspondence to acquire important private libraries for the Bibliothèque nationale such as those of Loménie de Brienne (1792), Panzer (1807), Count MacCarthy (1817). His role in the acquisition of collections, his long tenure at the library and his bibliographical knowledge resulted in him being often consulted about the older literature in the library. He had a particular interest in incunabula on vellum of which he compiled a bibliography. Among his acquisitions from booksellers Van Praet found many valuable works which he found it prudent to allocate to particular collections, such as books on vellum, incunabula, annotated editions, fine bindings, etc., so reestablishing the concept of « réserve ». He bequeathed his private collection of vellum books to the library. His 53 years as librarian were fundamental in the development of the library. Van Praet was elected a member of the Académie des inscriptions et belles-lettres 19 March 1830 and died in 1837.
Either he had wrong information, or I've a misunderstanding about his text ... I would trust his biography more than that of Merlin in this specific question.
Perhaps we should ask Franco about this problem.

**************

Added:

1845 ...
Les romans du Renard: examiné, analysés et comparés, d'après les textes manuscrits les plus anciens, les publications Latines, Flamandes, Allemandes et Françaises
A. Rothe
J. Techener, 1845 - 524 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=YQ1JAA ... 41&f=false
... the author writes about the text "fonds de Lancelot" and gives it a number "6985-3, fonds de Lancelot No.4" ...

Image


... and it seems, that the cartes problem isn't his theme.

I found Antonio van der Linde, who speaks of the Renard version of 1341, which finally was from 1450, and he gives the number 6985-3 ... after Merlin.

Image

https://archive.org/stream/geschichteun ... earch/1341

Merlin gives this:

Image


Same number 6985-3. Merlin didn't make this detection, but a M. Paulin Paris, I assume.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Guilleville + Renart le Contrefait ; theme -1377

#5
M. Paulin Paris ...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulin_Paris
... a historian. He wrote in 1861:
"Les Aventures de maître Renart et d'Ysengrin son compère, mises en nouveau langage, racontées dans un nouvel ordre et suivies de nouvelles recherches sur le roman de Renart (1861)"
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k54703035

I find nothing ...

The original ...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... m.r=6985-3

Image

The text of 1822 gave "Folio 95", there I found it.

The description has ...
Titre : Français 370
Date d'édition : 1301-1400
Type : manuscrit
Langue : français
Format : Papier. Filigrane : ancre surmontée d'une croix (Briquet, n° 365-395 ; également un raisin (Briquet, n° 13063- 13078), des armoiries : 3 fleurs de lys (Briquet, n° 1672- 1676). Une étoile couronnée (Briquet, n° 6107-6110). Surtout, sur le f. de garde initial où est la table des matières, le filigrane "Mathias 145" que Briquet (n° 4443) désigne comme un papetier probablement du Midi de la France. Il y a également un Y barré (Briquet, n° 9195- 9197). - 129 f., plus 2 f. initiaux non réglés, et 3 f. de garde à la fin : 2 réglés, le dernier non réglé. Il y a un f. coupé entre le f. 17 et le f. 18 ; et un autre f. coupé entre le f. 22 et le f. 23 (sans lacune dans la pagination, moderne, du ms.). Le f. 46 est bis. Le f. 29 r° est blanc. - 377 × 271 mm. - 2 col. de 37 lignes. Pas de signatures. Réclames : f. 40v, 55v, 87v, 119v. - Le premier cahier est composé des 2 f. de garde initiaux et des 2 premiers f. du texte ; et les suivants, des quaternions réguliers (en tenant compte des f. coupés et du f. 46 bis). - Reliure à la fleur de lys et au chiffre de Louis XVIII au dos, en veau raciné
Description : Texte unique : (f. 1-129 : Renart le Contrefait (2° rédaction), t. II.)
Description : La Bibliothèque de Vienne a fait copie de ce volume pour se compléter ; elle possède en effet l'unique exemplaire du t. Ier de ***Renart*** le Contrefait dont la Bibliothèque nationale a fait, de son côté, prendre copie (ms. fr. 369 ; copie moderne).Au f. 129v, on voit la signature de Jehan Duboys (à la suite de : Cy fine le second et derrenier volume de Regnart etc.). Cette signature semble remonter à la fin du XVe siècle.Ensuite le ms. appartint à la Bibliothèque conservée au chateau d'Anet (peut-être pas dès Diane de Poitiers ni des princes de Vendôme. Vendu en 1724, après la mort d'Anne de Bavière, princesse de Condé, il fut acheté par Antoine Lancelot, qui le paya 7 livres, 1 sol (cf. Paris (Paulin), Les manuscrits françois de la Bibliothèque du Roi (Paris, 1840), t. III, p. 172-174. - Cf. Delisle (Léopold), Le Cabinet des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque Impériale, t. I (Paris, 1868, p. 189 et 409).Au f. 1, signature d'Antoine Lancelot : "Ant. Lancelot".Codex Lancellotiom 166 : Regius 6985. 3. Mc XXXII.
Droits : domaine public
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b10525299w
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, Département des manuscrits, Français 370
Provenance : Bibliothèque nationale de France
Date de mise en ligne : 28/09/2015
"Paris (Paulin), Les manuscrits françois de la Bibliothèque du Roi (Paris, 1840), t. III, p. 172-174"
... leads to this text ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=9GaFcUfLj4UC
... and it doesn't contain something relevant in the researched question.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: William de Guilleville c. 1330 ; theme -1377

#6
Merlin says:
autre interpolation du mot cartes....Le manuscrit cité du Renard le Contrefait (no. 6985, 3) de la Bibliothèque Impériale est tout au plus de 1450, et, dans le manuscrit 7630,4, plus ancien de plus d'un siècle, il n'y a trace de nom des cartes. Voice comme le vers déjà cité s'y trouve écrit:
Jouent à jeux de dez, ou de tables
In English:
Another interpolation of the word cards .... The manuscript quoted of Renard the Counterfeit (No. 6985, 3) of the Imperial Library is at most [?] 1450, and in manuscript 7630,4, older than more than one century, there is no trace of the name of cards. Here is as the verse already quoted is written there:
Playing games of dice, or tables
There are two issues, I think.

(1) Could 6985-3 really be as late as 1450, as he claims?

(2) Is there an earlier redaction, 7630-4, that doesn't have the word "cartes"?

On issue 1, I look again at the detailed information Gallica provides:
Titre : Français 370
Date d'édition : 1301-1400
Type : manuscrit
Langue : français
Format : Papier. Filigrane : ancre surmontée d'une croix (Briquet, n° 365-395 ; également un raisin (Briquet, n° 13063- 13078), des armoiries : 3 fleurs de lys (Briquet, n° 1672- 1676). Une étoile couronnée (Briquet, n° 6107-6110). Surtout, sur le f. de garde initial où est la table des matières, le filigrane "Mathias 145" que Briquet (n° 4443) désigne comme un papetier probablement du Midi de la France. Il y a également un Y barré (Briquet, n° 9195- 9197). - 129 f., plus 2 f. initiaux non réglés, et 3 f. de garde à la fin : 2 réglés, le dernier non réglé. Il y a un f. coupé entre le f. 17 et le f. 18 ; et un autre f. coupé entre le f. 22 et le f. 23 (sans lacune dans la pagination, moderne, du ms.). Le f. 46 est bis. Le f. 29 r° est blanc. - 377 × 271 mm. - 2 col. de 37 lignes. Pas de signatures. Réclames : f. 40v, 55v, 87v, 119v. - Le premier cahier est composé des 2 f. de garde initiaux et des 2 premiers f. du texte ; et les suivants, des quaternions réguliers (en tenant compte des f. coupés et du f. 46 bis). - Reliure à la fleur de lys et au chiffre de Louis XVIII au dos, en veau raciné
Description : Texte unique : (f. 1-129 : Renart le Contrefait (2° rédaction), t. II.)
Description : La Bibliothèque de Vienne a fait copie de ce volume pour se compléter ; elle possède en effet l'unique exemplaire du t. Ier de ***Renart*** le Contrefait dont la Bibliothèque nationale a fait, de son côté, prendre copie (ms. fr. 369 ; copie moderne).Au f. 129v, on voit la signature de Jehan Duboys (à la suite de : Cy fine le second et derrenier volume de Regnart etc.). Cette signature semble remonter à la fin du XVe siècle. Ensuite le ms. appartint à la Bibliothèque conservée au chateau d'Anet (peut-être pas dès Diane de Poitiers ni des princes de Vendôme. Vendu en 1724, après la mort d'Anne de Bavière, princesse de Condé, il fut acheté par Antoine Lancelot, qui le paya 7 livres, 1 sol (cf. Paris (Paulin), Les manuscrits françois de la Bibliothèque du Roi (Paris, 1840), t. III, p. 172-174. - Cf. Delisle (Léopold), Le Cabinet des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque Impériale, t. I (Paris, 1868, p. 189 et 409).Au f. 1, signature d'Antoine Lancelot : "Ant. Lancelot".Codex Lancellotiom 166 : Regius 6985. 3. Mc XXXII.
Droits : domaine public
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b10525299w
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, Département des manuscrits, Français 370
Provenance : Bibliothèque nationale de France
Date de mise en ligne : 28/09/2015
There is the line (which I put in bold):
Date d'édition : 1301-1400
That seems to say that the manuscript is at the latest 1400. That is 50 years earlier than Merlin claims. But for our purposes, i.e. finding things before 1377, it is not enough. Your Antonio van der Linde, whenever he was writing, says "um 1450", which is even stronger than Merlin.

There is also the line:
Description : Texte unique : (f. 1-129 : Renart le Contrefait (2° rédaction), t. II.)
I read this as saying that this is the unique version of f. 1-129, but after that it is the 2nd redaction. But I really don't know if that is right, because what it says later contradicts that. Then there is the question, is the "first redaction" implicit here a manuscript that still exists, or a manuscript that is lost (i.e. from 1428 as opposed to 1441)?

Then there is the second description; here is a translation of most of it:
The Library of Vienna [?] has copied this volume to complement itself; It possesses the sole copy of t. I of Renart *** the Counterfeit of which the Bibliotheque Nationale has made a copy (ms 369, modern copy). 129v, we see the signature of Jehan Duboys (following: Cy fine the second and last volume of Regnart etc.). This signature seems to date back to the end of the 15th century. Then the ms. belonged to the Library kept at the castle of Anet (perhaps not as early as Diane de Poitiers or the princes of Vendome.) Sold in 1724, after the death of Anne of Bavaria, Princesse de Conde, it was bought by Antoine Lancelot, who paid 7 livres 1 sol. (cf. Paris (Paulin), Les manuscrits françois de la Bibliothèque du Roi (Paris, 1840), t. III, p. 172-174. - Cf. Delisle (Léopold), Le Cabinet des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque Impériale, t. I (Paris, 1868, p. 189 et 409). On f. 1, signature of Antoine Lancelot : "Ant. Lancelot". Codex Lancellotiom 166 : Regius 6985. 3. Mc XXXII.
This seems to say that the original of the passage we are interested in is in the Library of Vienna; or is it Vienne, the town in France near Lyon? This is something completely new to me. I am confused. Perhaps Ross or Franco could clarify the issue, I don't know.

On issue 2 regarding Merlin, what is necessary is to find manuscript 7630-4, to see if it has "cartes", and see whether it is considered of a century earlier, as Merlin says. Van Praet doesn't seem to seem to know about any earlier manuscript. Maybe it hadn't been catalogued by 1822.

There is also the question of how to relate Gallica to what Rothe says, about the earlier version having 32,000 lines and the later (6985-3) 18,000 lines. And where does Rothe think the earlier one is? Is it the same as the one at Vienne/Vienna, or something else?

I think it would be good to try to track down "Imperial" 7630-4 and see what is there. Rothe unfortunately does not seem to give identifying information for the second manuscript he is talking about. I need to stop for now, however.

Guilleville + Renart le Contrefait ; theme -1377

#7
Le Roman de Renart le Contrefait, nach der Handschrift der K. K. Hofbibliothek Nr. 2562, früher Hohendorf, Fol. 39
by Ferdinand Wolf
Published 1861
https://archive.org/stream/LeRomanDeRen ... 9/mode/2up

... mentions the two manuscript numbers as the major topic of his work (although the title tells, that he refers to a manuscript in Vienna, actually only one page (folio 39; but perhaps I misunderstand something)).

Image


Image


The author calls the both works in his work A (= 7630-4) and B (= 6985-3).

The author thinks, that both works belong to one work and he has the argument, that both texts belonged once to the same owner Jehan Duboys (in 15th century; the name appears has a handwritten note in both texts).

As I understand the author, the author finds the name of this owner of the Paris manuscripts also in a Vienna manuscript (I don't see a number for the text; possibly he means this 2562 or 2582 in the title, and "folio 39" is only the start of the text of it). This Vienna manuscript becomes his object.

As I get from a quick view, somehow the author thinks, that all 3 texts belong together ... somehow. There are 3 different versions, one around 1320 (first version), one started in 1327/28 (redacted version) and another version 1341/43 (this latter is a sort of chronology, somehow belonging to the second).

I've not the time to follow it in the moment.

**************

Added:

I found this ...
http://www.persee.fr/doc/scrip_0036-977 ... _21_1_3288

Image


Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Guilleville + Renart le Contrefait ; theme -1377

#8
Error

A Canadian website by an author called "Lou" ...
http://www.unicorne.com/abc/cartomancie ... 9-1369.php

... gives the following information:
Puis pour la France en 1351, une erreur diffusée doit être corrigée.
Ainsi, plusieurs auteurs mentionnent la présence des jeux de cartes dans un prétendu manuscrit de Lancelot daté de l'année 1351; document retrouvé par M. Van Praett, conservateur de la Bibliothèque du Roi. En y prêtant foi, on eût pu croire que les cartes étaient connues en France depuis 1341 ou avant, ce qui est inexact. La mention est tirée d'un poème écrit dans “Renard-Le-Contrefait”, une chronique de Petit Jean de Saintré, sous le règne de Charles V, écrite dit-on pendant 23 ans (de 1328 à 1351). Il y est écrit:
“Si comme fol et folles sont, Qui pour gaigner au bordel vont, Jouant au dez, ((aux cartes)) aux tables, Qu'à Dieu ne sont délectables.” Toutefois, il s'avère qu'on avait ajouté “aux cartes” en recopiant le document original. En réalité, ce texte a été écrit par Antoine de Lassale, en 1459. à preuve, le manuscrit original, plus ancien de près d'un siècle — folio n° 7630-4 plutôt que folio n° 6985-3 —, et qui se lit comme suit:
“Si comme fols et foles sont, Qui pour gaigner, au bordel sont, Jouent à des geux de dez ou de tables, Qui à Dieu ne sont delelitables.”
This seems to contain various errors.
Antoine de la Sale is the author of "Petit Jehan de Saintre" and connected to another case of interpolation.

******************

OBSERVATIONS: SUR LES CARTES A JOUER
M. Duchesne aîné
Annuaire historique pour l'année ...
Vol. 1 (1837), pp. 172-213
http://www.jstor.org/stable/23399444?se ... b_contents

... contains somewhere the numbers of the both manuscripts. I saw the name of the author mentioned in the articles.

Added: I found the passage at p. 184/85

Image


Image


*****************

This looks good ...

Raynaud Gaston. Renart le Contrefait et ses deux rédactions. In: Romania, tome 37 n°146, 1908. pp. 245-283.
DOI : 10.3406/roma.1908.5012
http://www.persee.fr/doc/roma_0035-8029 ... 7_146_5012

A work of 1908. It compares the manuscript B (= 6985-3) with the Vienna manuscript.

Image


Here we see different names for the manuscript objects, the numbers 7630-4 and 6984-3 get an additional "anc."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Guilleville + Renart le Contrefait ; theme -1377

#9
The report of Vienna 1861 ...
https://archive.org/stream/LeRomanDeRen ... 9/mode/2up
... points to this catalogue for an earlier reference to the Vienna manuscript.

Image


Bibliotheca Hohendorfiana Ou Catalogue De La Bibliotheque De feu Monsieur George Guillaume Baron de Hohendorf, Dans son vivant, Colonel des Cuirassiers au service de Sa Majesté Impériale & Catholique ...: Qui contient les in octavo, les in douze, et les manuscrits, Band 3
Georg W. ¬von Hohendorf
De Hondt, 1720 - 288 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=GNhSAA ... it&f=false

Then the author points to ...
Notices et extraits des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque nationale et autres bibliothèques
by Institut national de France
Published 1799
(given as "Legrand d'Aussy, Tome 5" ... there are other versions, but this one is correct)
p. 330-331

Image


Image


The Vienna author concludes, that Legrand d'Aussy hasn't seen the Vienna manuscript.

The Vienna manuscript contains the "Roman" and the manuscript 6984-3 a chronology.
The Vienna version has a picture at page 1 and in the text free places for further pictures. The picture shows the author (or writer) with blue clothes and a green hat, sitting at a writing desk. At the border are 3 monkeys and a bird together with flowers and arabesques.

The author dates the Vienna version to end of 15th century.

The author thinks, that this text was seen by Ménage and described in the first text of his Menagiana. But the first text is from 1693 ...
https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_Mc8wh ... contrefait
... and it's possibly the wrong text, cause ...
https://www.arlima.net/qt/renart_le_contrefait.html
... gives tome 3 (1716) and tome 5 (1729) as relevant.
I find versions, but not that, what is addressed in the German text. I give up on this.

https://www.arlima.net/qt/renart_le_contrefait.html (again) has this ... as the objects ...
Manuscrits
Rédaction A:
Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, français, 1630 (A) |N|
Rédaction B:
Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, français, 369 |N|
Copie moderne de B1.
Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, français, 370 (B2) |N|
Second tome.
Wien, Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, 2562 (B1)
Premier tome accompagné d'un second volume contenant une transcription moderne du ms. B2.
...
[.... before it explains] Entre 1319 et 1322 (Réd. A); entre 1328 et 1342 (Réd. B1 et B2)
This A and B names are not the system, that the Vienna author had.

Rédaction A: Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, français, 1630 (A) |N| ... is this ...
http://nossl.demo.logilab.fr/biblissima ... agore/3124
... the connected time according the information above is 1319-22

The ancient number given to the text is - according website ... http://archivesetmanuscrits.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cc463337
Français 1630

Cote : Français 1630
Ancienne cote : Anc. 7630(4)
Ancienne cote : de La Mare 284
« Li Romans de Renart Contrefait ».
XIVe siècleVélin, miniatures.
... to my own astonishment 7630(4) .... actually I thought it would be the text of c 1328.

But this text of 1328 or later seems to be the Vienna text, which was copied (? I conclude this only from "Copie moderne"), now with the French number 369

The text B2 is then the chronologie, which we had already (6985-03, now with the number 370)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... w/f1.image
... which contains the word "cartes" at Folio 95

*********

MikeH, you wanted to see 7630-4 ... this should be
http://nossl.demo.logilab.fr/biblissima ... agore/3124

Looking through the edition I see curious contradictions ... Fol "60r" should have at his left something with a picture, but Folio "59v" has no picture. I don't know, how this explains.





-
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: William de Guilleville c. 1330 ; theme -1377

#10
Thanks for all this work, Huck. What a maze! Now that we have the other text that Merlin cited, we don't know where to look to see if he was right, about that manuscript (7630-4), whenever it was, 1630 or whenever. He conveniently (for him, keeping others from checking his work) left off the folio number. Did you see it anywhere, for the passage in question?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

cron