Tuchim or Tuchin in 1361 in Provence ; theme -1377

#1
Kaplan Tarot Encyclopedia I, p. 32, made this statement:

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I found this:

Vitae Paparum Avenionensium, hoc est, Historia Pontificum Romanorum qui in Gallia sederunt ab anno Christi 1305. usque ad annum 1394. Stephanus Baluzius Tutelensis magnam partem nunc primùm edidit, reliquam emendavit ad vetera exemplaria, notas adjecit & collactionem actorum veterum. Tomus primus [-secundus]: Vitae Paparum Auenionensium, hoc est, Historia Pontificum romanorum qui in Gallia sederunt ab anno Christi 1305. usque ad annum 1394. Stephanus Baluzius Tutelensis magnam partem nunc primùm edidit .., Volume 1

apud Franciscum Muguet Regis, Cleri Gallicani, & illustrissimi Archiepiscopi Parisiensis typographum, 1693
https://books.google.de/books?id=0Up2CT ... ia&f=false

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Getting the right words, I also got the text of 1614.
L'Histoire et chronique de Provence de Caesar de Nostradamus,....
César de Nostredame
S. Rigaud, 1614 - Provence (France) - 1092 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=uErLFT ... 14&f=false

The passage is indeed at page 411 (as the other source noted):





I understand, that the Tuchins had been real in 1361, and I assume, that the author didn't lie about the card playing customs of his own time: the Valets were possibly called Tuchim or Tuchin in the Provence in 1614.

Wikipedia agrees:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volte_des_Tuchins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuchin_Revolt
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuchineraufstand

The major events connected to the terminus "Tuchin" seem to have happened later (till 1384), so the fact of the "Tuchin use for valets in 1614" naturally doesn't tell us, that playing cards existed already in 1361.

From Charles IV we know, that he had a journey to the region of Provence in 1365 ... in the discussion to the prohibition in Bern 1367 we have the argument, that Charles IV possibly imported card playing to Bern in 1365 at the same opportunity.
Long discussions to this point at:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1097&p=16884&hilit=bern#p16882
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tuchim or Tuchin in 1361 in Provence ; theme -1377

#2
Yes Huck you 've understood correctly these references...
It is said that in 1614, Provencals people called the Valets of Cards "TUCHINS"
It is stated that the word "TUCHINS" refered to 1361 very powerful band of soldiers robbers finally paid by the MARQUIS OF MONTEFRRAT for the war he was making to the Duke of Milan (60000 ecus)



Nevertheless, the presentation of these "Commanches" of the XIVth century is ideologically orientated and not in adequation with the reality of the TUCHINAT - much more powerful and complex and integrated in the society - not only asocials or outcasts or bands of unpaid soldiers robers and murderers.
Modern historians have restored this complexity
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
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Reference
La révolte des Tuchins : banditisme social ou sociabilité villageoise ?
Vincent Challet
Médiévales Année 1998 Volume 17 Numéro 34 pp. 101-112
http://www.persee.fr/doc/medi_0751-2708 ... 17_34_1418
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Tuchim or Tuchin in 1361 in Provence ; theme -1377

#3
The leader of the late Tuchinat, Étienne Augier dit Ferragut du Pin ...

Ferragut was a nick name ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferragut
... with differences in the writing form.

Interestingly this name appeared in the Alione poem, which contained the word "Taroch" ...
Marì ne san dè au recioch
Secundum el Melchisedech
Lour fan hic. Preve hic et hec
Ma i frà, hic et hec et hoc
Ancôr gli è – d'i taroch
Chi dan zù da Ferragù


In the wiki article: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volte_des_Tuchins
Au printemps de l'année 1384, le chef tuchin allié de Charles Duras, Étienne Augier plus connu sous le nom de Ferragut, s’installa dans les Alpilles, fit régner la terreur jusqu'au Rhône et prit la ville d'Arles le 24 juillet avec des complicités internes. Après quelques heures de troubles, les habitants se révoltèrent contre les Tuchins et les chassèrent de la cité. Le lendemain, une répression sévère fut menée contre leurs partisans. À cette période, la révolte était devenue impopulaire et l'aspiration à la paix, la plus forte.
Somehow a strange accident, that a Tuchin-leader word "Ferragut" appears close to a word, which 10 years later becomes the name of a card deck type "Tarochi" .... and that Tuchin becomes a name of the Valet in Provence.

In German we have the common word "Bauer"(usually = "farmer") as expression for the Unter and as the Tuchin seem to have been to a great part farmers or landworkers, it isn't really a surprising connection.

We discussed about Ferragu for instance here, but also at other places.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1074&p=16510&hilit=ferragu#p16510

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I personally think, that the Alione poem was later than the Tarocus poem by Bassano Mantovano, which I give to around September 1495.
The text of the poem was printed first time in 1521, but it is considered to be from a much earlier time. But "after 1505" might be not totally impossible.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tuchim or Tuchin in 1361 in Provence ; theme -1377

#4
Aventures et plaisante éducation du courtois chevalier Charles-le-Bon, sire d'Armagnac: contenant profitables leçons à jeunes chevaliers et à dames de haut parage, Volume 1
Charles Joseph Mayer 1785
https://books.google.de/books?id=cX8TAA ... es&f=false

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Somehow the theory existed in 1785, that the Tuchin had been the jack of hearts (so not a name for all the valets). But this might be a wrong conclusion.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tuchim or Tuchin in 1361 in Provence ; theme -1377

#5
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Nevertheless, the presentation of these "Commanches" of the XIVth century is ideologically orientated and not in adequation with the reality of the TUCHINAT - much more powerful and complex and integrated in the society - not only asocials or outcasts or bands of unpaid soldiers robers and murderers.
Modern historians have restored this complexity
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
Image


Reference
La révolte des Tuchins : banditisme social ou sociabilité villageoise ?
Vincent Challet
Médiévales Année 1998 Volume 17 Numéro 34 pp. 101-112
http://www.persee.fr/doc/medi_0751-2708 ... 17_34_1418

Excellent study also by the same author on line :
Référence papier
Vincent Challet, « Au miroir du Tuchinat », Cahiers de recherches médiévales, 10 | 2003, 71-87.
Référence électronique
Vincent Challet, « Au miroir du Tuchinat », Cahiers de recherches médiévales [En ligne], 10 | 2003, mis en ligne le 08 octobre 2007, consulté le 29 janvier 2017. URL : http://crm.revues.org/1563 ; DOI : 10.4000/crm.1563


http://crm.revues.org/1563
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

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