Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#51
RECAPITULATION IN FOUR POINTS

1. PIETRO DE MEDECIS iMPRESE
About the birthtray for Pietro de Medicis son birth, Lorenzo and the use of Stemma and imprese, Steve gave a documented Link http://www.academia.edu/30183941/Herald ... _Patronage
"It should be noted that Cosimo did not have a personal device as they do not appear until his son1s generation. AMES LEWIS 126 128"

Also :
"The armorial device is that of Lorenzo de’ Medici’s father, Piero de’ Medici: a diamond ring with three ostrich feathers and a banderole with the motto SEMPER (forever). The device is much worn and the silver is oxidized. Piero de’ Medici married Lucrezia Tornabuoni in 1444 and their first son, Lorenzo, was born in 1449; the two families’ coats of arms are in the upper left and right. The tradition of commissioning circular trays or salvers to commemorate a birth derived from the custom of presenting sweetmeats to the new mother"
http://metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436516

Image



2. COSMO DE MEDICIS THE ELDER STEMMA
The 8 Palles Medicis Stemma on the Reverso of The Triumph of Fame c 1449 Impresa of the Medici Family and Arms of the Medici and Tornabuoni Families by Massacio brother, Giovanni di ser Giovanni Guidi (called Scheggia) (Italian, San Giovanni Valdarno 1406–1486 Florence) are those, I think, of Cosimo the Elder - Head of the family.

3. PIETRO DE MEDICIS STEMMA
For the psChVI Charioter, the first rows of Stemma's with 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would be those of Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
Image


High speculative nota :
Amongst the virtues, Temperance 's dress is also orned with flower (?) motifs kind of similar to the 7 Palles ...
The same textile repeating the Medicis pattern is on the Chariot immediately below the first rows of the 7 Palles of the Charioter.
Image

Now, if my correspondence between the flower motifs of the dress of the female figure of Temperance and the Medicis Palles motif is anything more than mere speculation , this kind of "textile" for women repeating Medicis motifs as ornement could be the allusion present in the very simple dress of Temperance repeating the Stemma in the psChVI Tarot.
There is one example of this later on in 1492 but only a fragment much more elaborated and complex is left :
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/46.156.70/
"Though we cannot be sure of the original dimensions of the textile, it was probably woven as a long border, with a repeating pattern of the Medici device, which may have alternated with other symbolic emblems relating to the family. A valuable textile such as this, specifically woven for the Medici family, would most likely have been reserved for use during important family events, such as marriages, or used on an important piece of furniture, such as the best bed in the household or a canopy covering a ceremonial chair. The device of the three feathers encircled by the ring above the motto SEMPER was used to decorate a variety of objects; other examples include a maiolica bowl, horse trappings, and ceremonial headgear"
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/46.156.70/

So, if the speculation has any ground, this could explain the presence of this simple and protype textile repeating the Medicis Stemma either covering the Chariot or covering Temperance...as on the psChVI Charioter and Temperance...



4. As suggested, Scheggia is a plausible candidate for the psChVI paintings for the : http://trionfi.com/evx-lo-scheggia
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#52
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:RECAPITULATION IN FOUR POINTS


2. COSMO DE MEDICIS THE ELDER STEMMA
The 8 Palles Medicis Stemma on the Reverso of The Triumph of Fame c 1449 Impresa of the Medici Family and Arms of the Medici and Tornabuoni Families by Massacio brother, Giovanni di ser Giovanni Guidi (called Scheggia) (Italian, San Giovanni Valdarno 1406–1486 Florence) are those, I think, of Cosimo the Elder - Head of the family.

3. PIETRO DE MEDICIS STEMMA
For the psChVI Charioter, the first rows of Stemma's with 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would be those of Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
As for point #3, how exactly did you expect the artist to paint 3 or even 1 fleur de lys on a dot of paint in the CVI tarot, which are essentially textile miniatures within miniature paintings?

As for point #2, the Medici were notoriously inconsistent in their use of the number of palles in their imprese, but it is absolutely incorrect to only associate 8 with Cosimo - his tomb-slab designed by Verrocchio, and installed in the most conspicuous place in San Lorenzo in 1467, showed six (also directly on Cosimo's tomb in the crypt):
Image


In fact the 6 equidistant balls about a central ball (7 total) - forming the 'rosette' seen in the CVI (and on Gozzoli's painting in the Medici chapel of 1459 on Piero and the young wise king's horse reins) - was taken from the raised slab holding the dynasty founder's marble casket, Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici, in the Old Sacristy in San Lorenzo:
Image


And I'd like to see pre-1470s evidence for the hairstyle of the page of swords (forehead shown off by widely split bangs and an encircling roll at the hair's 'hem'), made popular by Giuliano de Medici before he was assassinated in 1478 (also note the same scalloping design on Verrochio's bust of Giuliano, c. 1475-78, and the CVI page of swords):
Image
Image


Clearly that hairstyle was not fashionable even in Gozzoli's 1459 painting, where the central young wise king, riding immediately before the Medici, wears bangs and curls; young Lorenzo himself sported a 'page-boy' type cut, as did Galeazzo:
Image
Image
Image


It is possible that "CVI page" hairstyle first became popular in Florence when Galeazzo Sforza made a return visit there in 1471 (he first visited in 1459 when 15 for his father Francesco, as pictured above) and whose 1471 portrait - which hung in Lorenzo de Medici's room - was painted on that occasion by Piero del Pollaiolo (it's now in the Uffizi). Giuliano de Medici was an impressionable 18 at the time of Galeazzo's visit.
Image


The livery and hair point to a date in the 1470s. The number of balls is a moot point as they could date to any time after Giovanni di Bicci's death and tomb installation.

Phaeded

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#53
Hi Phaeded

Thanks for your contributions.
Your objections are for me of interest.
My answer : if one admits, as you question in point 1, that the painting of 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys is not a valuable argument for a datation prior May 1465, yes ... a later datation is quite possible.
Reading your point 2 about the hair style of the Page of Swords, ...again yes ...circa 1470s becomes plausible.

Provisional conclusion : open topic!

Two good points

1. "As for point #3, how exactly did you expect the artist to paint 3 or even 1 fleur de lys on a dot of paint in the CVI tarot, which are essentially textile miniatures within miniature paintings?"

2." And I'd like to see pre-1470s evidence for the hairstyle of the page of swords (forehead shown off by widely split bangs and an encircling roll at the hair's 'hem'), made popular by Giuliano de Medici before he was assassinated in 1478 (also note the same scalloping design on Verrochio's bust of Giuliano, c. 1475-78, and the CVI page of swords):
Image
Image


Clearly that hairstyle was not fashionable even in Gozzoli's 1459 painting, where the central young wise king, riding immediately before the Medici, wears bangs and curls; young Lorenzo himself sported a 'page-boy' type cut, as did Galeazzo:
Image
Image
Image


It is possible that "CVI page" hairstyle first became popular in Florence when Galeazzo Sforza made a return visit there in 1471 (he first visited in 1459 when 15 for his father Francesco, as pictured above) and whose 1471 portrait - which hung in Lorenzo de Medici's room - was painted on that occasion by Piero del Pollaiolo (it's now in the Uffizi). Giuliano de Medici was an impressionable 18 at the time of Galeazzo's visit.
Image


The livery and hair point to a date in the 1470s. The number of balls is a moot point as they could date to any time after Giovanni di Bicci's death and tomb installation."
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#54
Alain,
Just to be clear on my own theory:

The "AS" deck dates from 1475 for Costanzo Sforza's wedding to Camilla d'Aragon in Pesaro in 1475. The reason I rule out an earlier date under Alessandro is that his device is always on a red shield but the King of Swords's impresa is on a black shield, which I take as a commemoration of the fairly recently deceased father of Costanzo. The AS winged/ring/flower impresa on red, quartered with the Attendoli-cum-Sforza blue/white (silver) nebuly pattern on the culminating Triumph of Fama in Costanza's wedding festival book (with the "AS"/Catania black shield below that):
MSS Urb.lat.899 triumph of Fama detail of AS impresa.jpg
MSS Urb.lat.899 triumph of Fama detail of AS impresa.jpg (109.73 KiB) Viewed 2466 times
vs.
Image
and "CVI" page:
Image


The "CVI" deck dates from c.1478 follows the Pazzi Conspiracy when Giuliano de Medici was struck down. Again, why the shield in the suit of swords is black - to commemorate his death, while the living brother is depicted on the chariot (Lorenzo). Perhaps the "CVI" King and Jack were Cosimo and Piero, also deceased by then, which would have not been unprecedented as courtly figures as Lorzeno looks down on the kneeling Cosimo, Piero and uncle Giovanni (a relatively unimportant family member that could have been replaced with Giuliano in the CVI sword suit) as the 3 wise kings in Botticelli's Adoration of the Magi from 1475 (the still-living Giuliano has his neck craned behind/beneath Lorenzo here): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoration ... otticelli)

The close dating explains why those two decks are so similar. I would also posit that the Medici and their minions, clearly already giving trionfi decks to potential condottiere (e.g. Giusti->Malatesta), may have been behind the "AS" deck to Costanza (as part of package of wedding gifts) as they were always looking to keep as many captains allied to their side, especially from the Sforza family (and notably Costanzo had been in the employ of the pope behind the Pazzi Conspiracy, Sixtus IV, in 1474, so perhaps Costanzo even received a "CVI" deck as a reminder of the two state's "friendship" in order to at least keep him neutral in the inevitably coming war).

Phaeded

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#55
Linked to this thread :

1. Images of the ps Ch VI on : Trionfi.com: News and Updates February 1st 2017
15 enlargeable pictures of the 17 cards of "Tarot dit de Charles VI"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=350#p18749

2. Two other threads of interest :
A definitive Medici marker on the page of Swords?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1159

Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=964
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#56
Active threads of interest for me :

1. About blond hair style of the Page of Swords ?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=964&start=20#p18778

2. About the Moon Card astrologers : Toscanelli and Regiomontus?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1159&start=20#p18772

Nota :
Subjective reminder and summary in very few words for eentual readers discovering the threads ...
Clear rewording welcome!

Thesis :
"Medicis Palles Charioter has no Fleur de Lys" (Huck) : a plausible inference for a datation prior to May 1465 Terminus date qualified by Steve as rational deduction but "not entirely reliable" -
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18667
Thesis discussed by Phaeded later on...

3 suggestions :

1459-1464 : Steve (1461? Pietro Gonfalonier of Florence)
1463 : Huck - birthday=anniversary (my bad English) of Lorenzo born Jnauary 1st 1449
August 1464 - May 1465 : Alain - Death of Cosimo and regn of Pietro before the introduction of the Fleur de Lys in the 7 Palles of Pietro

Discussion of ante May 1465 by Phaeded

Livery and (blond) hair style point to a date in the 1470s
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=50#p18721
Pazzi conspiration date for the ps Ch VI ?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1159&start=10#p18761
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#57
1463 : Huck - birth of Lorenzo
Not "birth" ... 14th birthday of Lorenzo ... a day, when persons became considered as adolescent.

In the whole question one shouldn't overlook, that all the elder Medici were seriously sick. Giovanni died 1463, Cosimo 1464 and Piero 1469 ... all a natural death. And Lorenzo was the oldest male of the next generation. So there was a lot of expectations about him.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#59
Phaeded wrote
And I'd like to see pre-1470s evidence for the hairstyle of the page of swords (forehead shown off by widely split bangs and an encircling roll at the hair's 'hem'), made popular by Giuliano de Medici before he was assassinated in 1478 (also note the same scalloping design on Verrochio's bust of Giuliano, c. 1475-78, and the CVI page of swords):
....
Clearly that hairstyle was not fashionable even in Gozzoli's 1459 painting, where the central young wise king, riding immediately before the Medici, wears bangs and curls; young Lorenzo himself sported a 'page-boy' type cut, as did Galeazzo:
Well, in the Gozzoli, a lot of the people have hats on, so you can't tell; but what about the boy in the blue tunic, below left? (For a larger image, click on http://laphamsquarterly.org/sites/defau ... 1_2800.jpg.)



And there are other things besides hair styles, namely, dress. Depaulis says of his Jacks, which are very similar to the CVI's, that "both jacks are dressed in a mid-fifteenth century (Italian) fashion". He describes particular features in "1450s/1460s" paintings, including the Gozzoli, that lead him to that conclusion.
https://askalexander.org/display/22536/ ... an%20cards
He also refers us to other references on 15th century Italian fashion, on that page and the one following, which would be worth checking before making claims about 1470s vs. 1450s fashion.

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#60
mikeh wrote: Well, in the Gozzoli, a lot of the people have hats on, so you can't tell; but what about the boy in the blue tunic, below left?
This one, I presume? Certainly close (enough?) :
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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