Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#41
Huck wrote: It's not obvious to me, if the central palle of the glass window is also already treated in a special way.

Image

No, it is not - it is early '60s - 1464 at the very latest, and probably earlier -

re: the Mamluk style Thuluth script surrounding the emblems and possible influence of Mamluk glassware and metalware - Medici inventories show that in 1463 Piero owned 16 pieces of Mamluk glassware and 36 pieces of Mamluk metalware (Lorenzo also collected Mamluk glass and metalware - in 1492 107 pieces are recorded, in 1495 160 - the source generally seems to have been Damascus, rather than Cairo) - Another influence possibly the typical laudatory epiteths of formal correspondence between the Medici and Mamluk rulers - letters from Mamluk Sultan and Emirs typically addressing Piero and later Lorenzo as if they were de facto rulers of Florence, of an equal status with the Mamluk rulers - with the formal, polite and laudatory epiteths accorded to such) -
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#42
I've added a provisionnal final paragraph to the initial post about the Exhibit on line of the BNF related to the Pseudo Charles VI Tarot.

Conclusions provisoires January 25th 2017
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&p=18644#p18644


Sorry for my bad English but it's comprehensible no?

II. Conclusions provisoires : 25 Janvier 2017

A. The 1442 datation for Tarots = triomphorum ludus was given by the author of the BnF article , in 2006, as an hypothetical dating : "semble-t-il"...
The complete sentence was :
"Le jeu de tarots est cité pour la première fois, semble-t-il, à Ferrare, en 1442, sous l’expression carte da trionfi ou triumphorum ludus (triomphes). Vers 1500, le terme tarocchi apparaît dans un livre de comptes de la cour de Ferrare. La transcription française "tarot" se rencontre dans un document daté 1505."
http://expositions.bnf.fr/renais/arret/3/ paragraphe III

If I had to precise the text, if my memory is good, the reference to Ferrare "tarocchi" is not circa 1500 but second semester 1505
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... M4akU/view pp.5-6
and, a little later, for France Avignon "taraux"...
"Les premières mentions connues du mot "tarot" datent du début du XVIe siècle. Jusque là nommé trionfi il devient tarocchi sans que personne ne sache pourquoi. On le voit mentionné ainsi dans une commande du duc Alphonse d'Este à Ferrare, ou encore dans un acte notarié d'Avignon dans lequel le cartier Jean Fort s'engage à livrer "quatre douzaines de [jeux de] cartes communément appelées taraux."
http://www.tarot-paris.com/d-ou-vient-le-mot-tarot

B. Dummett, Depaulis and Vitali have noted in the past a kind of similarity between the order of the psChVI Tarot and the Order of Bologna : "quite close to" ...
M. HOWARD has given some precious data relatively to this thesis : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18659

Nota : . Depaulis 1984 notes that the Numbers on the cards are added a little later on the initial paintings at first unumbered(?)...

C. The Stemmas of the Medicis (7 and 8 Palles) are present on Charioter of the ps ChVI Tarot.
This indicates most probably a Florentine origin of the intial paintings (unumbered?) deck.
The presence of the the Stemma of 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would indicate with some plausibility Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=30#p18688
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#43
Alain,
A. The 1442 datation for Tarots = triomphorum ludus was given by the author of the BnF article , in 2006, as an hypothetical dating : "semble-t-il"...
... possible you don't know it. The new oldest Trionfi note is from 16 September 1440. This was spread in the year 2012, after 2006.
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti
If I had to precise the text, if my memory is good, the reference to Ferrare "tarocchi" is not circa 1500 but second semester 1505
Ferrara 1505, 2 notes of Tarochi
reported in: QUANDO SI INIZIA A PARLARE DI "TAROCCO": FERRARA 1505 by Adriano Franceschini
Archivio di Stato di Modena, Camera ducale Estense, Guardaroba, 126, Conto di debiti e crediti, II semestre 1505
c. 93r, 30 giugno:
«Conto de merzaria de Guardaroba de' havere... E de' havere adì ultimo dito [giugno] per pare dexedoto de carte videlicet pare oto de tarochi e pare dexe fra schartini e carte de ronfa, quali fono portati a Viguenza, vene di Guradaroba al 3+, a c. 65 ... pare 18»

c. 96r, 26 dicembre: «E de' havere adì ditto per quindexe para de schartini e tarochi fo mandati a Viguenza per el Signore; vene di Guardaroba a 3+, a c. 68....[para] n. 15»
Avignon, Taraux December 6 in 1505
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1074&p=16477&hilit ... ber#p16477
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#44
Thanks Huck.

I'll update immediatly...

II. Conclusions provisoires : 25 Janvier 2017

A. The 1442 datation for Tarots = triomphorum ludus was given by the author of the BnF article , in 2006, as an hypothetical dating : "semble-t-il"...
The complete sentence was :
"Le jeu de tarots est cité pour la première fois, semble-t-il, à Ferrare, en 1442, sous l’expression carte da trionfi ou triumphorum ludus (triomphes). Vers 1500, le terme tarocchi apparaît dans un livre de comptes de la cour de Ferrare. La transcription française "tarot" se rencontre dans un document daté 1505."
http://expositions.bnf.fr/renais/arret/3/ paragraphe III

Huck MEYER me rappelle que :
La plus ancienne référence au mot "Trionfi est datée du 16 septembre 1440.
"The new oldest Trionfi note is from 16 September 1440. This was spread in the year 2012, after 2006."
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti

Quant aux premières mentions des mots "Tarrocchi" (Ferrare) et "taraux" (Avignon)
http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/

Ferrara 1505, 2 notes of Tarochi
reported in: QUANDO SI INIZIA A PARLARE DI "TAROCCO": FERRARA 1505 by Adriano Franceschini
Archivio di Stato di Modena, Camera ducale Estense, Guardaroba, 126, Conto di debiti e crediti, II semestre 1505
c. 93r, 30 giugno:«Conto de merzaria de Guardaroba de' havere... E de' havere adì ultimo dito [giugno] per pare dexedoto de carte videlicet pare oto de tarochi e pare dexe fra schartini e carte de ronfa, quali fono portati a Viguenza, vene di Guradaroba al 3+, a c. 65 ... pare 18»
c. 96r, 26 dicembre: «E de' havere adì ditto per quindexe para de schartini e tarochi fo mandati a Viguenza per el Signore; vene di Guardaroba a 3+, a c. 68....[para] n. 15»

Avignon, Taraux December 6 in 1505
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1074&p=16477&hilit=taraux+december#p16477

"Les premières mentions connues du mot "tarot" datent du début du XVIe siècle. Jusque là nommé trionfi il devient tarocchi sans que personne ne sache pourquoi. On le voit mentionné ainsi dans une commande du duc Alphonse d'Este à Ferrare, ou encore dans un acte notarié d'Avignon dans lequel le cartier Jean Fort s'engage à livrer "quatre douzaines de [jeux de] cartes communément appelées taraux."
http://www.tarot-paris.com/d-ou-vient-le-mot-tarot

B. Dummett, Depaulis and Vitali have noted in the past a kind of similarity between the order of the psChVI Tarot and the Order of Bologna : "quite close to" ...
M. HOWARD has given some precious data relatively to this thesis : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18659

Nota : . Depaulis 1984 notes that the Numbers on the cards are added a little later on the initial paintings at first unumbered(?)...

C. The Stemmas of the Medicis (7 and 8 Palles) are present on Charioter of the ps ChVI Tarot.
This indicates most probably a Florentine origin of the intial paintings (unumbered?) deck.
The presence of the the Stemma of 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would indicate with some plausibility Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=30#p18688
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#45
Huck MEYER rappelle que :
La plus ancienne référence au mot "Trionfi est datée du 16 septembre 1440.
"The new oldest Trionfi note is from 16 September 1440. This was spread in the year 2012, after 2006."
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti
... .-) ... you needn't to quote me for this. Nerida Newbegin translated the diary of Giusto Giusto (2002), Depaulis detected the word Trionfi in it, Ross spread it to our Forums, Franco Pratesi intensified the research and wrote the article, humble me only noted, that you didn't know about it ... .-)
The text of the Ferrarese notes is from http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/ , based on Franceschini.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#46
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: ... .-) ... No word about the 8 palle. What is, if the tray was a present by the grandfather Cosimo? Then Cosimo invented ring, feathers and "semper".

Image
If memory serves me right - the above medal was commissioned by Piero for (or in memory of?) his father --- and the epiteth of Cosimo as 'father of his people' (ppp) was invented and propogated by Piero (?)
The medal above was made by Antonio Selvi (1679-1753) as part of a series on Tuscan rulers:

The original, commisioned by Piero in commemoration of his father, had an allegorical figure of Florence on the back, not the three rings or motto : a second version was coined in his honour by the order from the officials of the Commune of Florence, after the Signoria officially granted the title (Princeps Pater Patriae) through a decree dated to March 16th 1465 -- The later version specifying that Cosimo was given the title “Father of the Country” by public decree via the inscription : COSMVS MEDICES DECRETO PVBLICO P P ·, with a more idealised portrait (less aged), and the same allegorical figure of Florence on the back -



Botticelli painted an unknown young man holding the medal (impressed into the gesso by a mold, either the original, or one cast from the medal by or for Botticelli) :

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#47
Huck wrote:
Huck MEYER rappelle que :
La plus ancienne référence au mot "Trionfi est datée du 16 septembre 1440.
"The new oldest Trionfi note is from 16 September 1440. This was spread in the year 2012, after 2006."
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti
... .-) ... you needn't to quote me for this. Nerida Newbegin translated the diary of Giusto Giusto (2002), Depaulis detected the word Trionfi in it, Ross spread it to our Forums, Franco Pratesi intensified the research and wrote the article, humble me only noted, that you didn't know about it ... .-)
The text of the Ferrarese notes is from http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/ , based on Franceschini.
Well my definitive phrase is now :

Huck MEYER me rappelle que

Hi! Hi!
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#50
Well, it was so, that Franco Pratesi returned to playing card research around October/November 2011 and then wrote
a series of articles at Trionfi.com and within half a year the number of Trionfi documents between 1440-1465 increased about 200 %. The greater part of these new documents was from the humble shop of 2 silk dealers in Florence, who between 1431-1460 also sold playing cards as a small additional income.
In 2013 Arnold Esch published a relative short article filled with short notes to playing cards from a custom register in Rome, mainly from the period 1453-65. From this we got 107 new Trionfi notes about imports of Trionfi cards to Rome. This doubled the number of results, which we had till then.

About 150 of these notes come from the both mentioned sources, the silk dealer pair and the Roman custom register, which are a little more than 70 % of that, what we have now till 1465.

It's likely, that most of the imported cards in the Roman custom register came from Florence. So we have now a lot of information about cards in Florence, but there was only little progress at other locations.

For the Charles VI the opinion has developed, that it possibly was made by Lo Scheggia ...
http://trionfi.com/evx-lo-scheggia

The reasons for this are the similarity between a Cassone picture and the Temperance card of the Alessandro Sforza Trionfi deck, the condition, that Lo Scheggia made some playing cards in 1447 (Pratesi research) and that Lo Scheggia made the birth tray of Lorenzo di Medici in 1449.

Image


Image




The backside contains of the birth tray we already had in this thread:

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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