Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#11
As far as the order of trumps Bologna vs. ps-ChVI, here is Dummett's (1980) chart of the Southern orders.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YlU6F53x-_E/U ... .35+PM.png
As you can see, the Bologna is different, in 2 ways: (1) Chariot is below the virtues in psChVI, above in Bologna. (2) order of virtues is different. It is similar to Bologna mainly in being a Southern order, i.e. all virtues below Death. Given the late date of the numbers, however, it is difficult to say much of anything about which set of numbers is earlier.

While I am at it, here are some other orders:

Eastern, (Ferrara, Venice, B)Dummett's list (1980); there are other variations he doesn't list, all with Justice high: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1EdTAS9Qo6E/U ... .56+PM.png

Also, I did a survey to compare other B order lists, of which there are many:

The Sermones is not a typical B (Eastern) order. Here are trumps 6-12 in various orders, which reduce to 2.

Sermones: Temperance, Love, Chariot, Fortitude, Wheel, Old Man, Hanged Man
Garzoni/Bertoni, Met., Pomeran, Rouen, Anonymous (appropriati), Imperiali, Citolini: Temperance, Chariot, Love, Fortitude, Wheel, Old Man, Traitor/Hanged Man.

It is also not clear that the Sermones is the first list. The Metropolitan Museum's sheets with numbers on them are around the same time; it's just that some of the numbers are questionable, and they might be later.


Western (Lombardy, France, C), Dummett's list, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lFAy3bKySz0/U ... .16+PM.png

Western, Marco Ponzi's list, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rEbZ-DxvUhs/U ... rders2.jpg

The issue of where the psChVI was made is hard to nail down definitively, unless a particular workshop can be identified. The psChVI has the Medici insignia on the chariot, so it was made for Florence. So it is prima facie Florentine. There is also the French lily, for which the French gave Florence permission in a particular year. We've discussed that here somewhere, shouldn't be too hard to find.

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#12
mikeh wrote:
The issue of where the psChVI was made is hard to nail down definitively, unless a particular workshop can be identified. The psChVI has the Medici insignia on the chariot, so it was made for Florence. So it is prima facie Florentine. There is also the French lily, for which the French gave Florence permission in a particular year. We've discussed that here somewhere, shouldn't be too hard to find.



Yep...
Depaulis quoting Dummett did not say it was exactly the Bolonese order but something very close.

« Michael Dummett s’est penché sur les chiffres romains inscrits à l’encre sur le haut des cartes (sauf pour le cas du Pendu) et partiellement rognés : on peut ainsi reconstituer un ordre des Atouts qui paraît proche de la tradition bolonaise… » […] « A moins que les tarots de Bologne ne se soient inspirés de celui-ci »(1)

(1) Bibliographie : Thierry Depaulis, Tarot , Jeu et Magie, pp 40 – 41 Bibliothèque Nationale, 1984

My initial interrogation was if the Bolonese tradition would have been inspirated by the psCharlesVI . I wrote :

L’Ordre des Atouts est à rapprocher de l’ordre de la tradition bolonaise donc de Bologne.
Mais le pseudo Charles VI tarocchi est-il à l’origine de cette tradition ou bien s’en inspire-t-il?

This interrogation was based on Depaulis supposition :
« A moins que les tarots de Bologne ne se soient inspirés de celui-ci ?»

Vitali's take was Ferrare / Bologna.
(..."with the Angel above the World and with minor variations in the numbers of some cards. However if the numbers on the cards were inserted much later, the deck may have been made in Ferrara and then bought by a Bolognese resident who would have numbered the cards in the Bolognese order. Unfortunately we don't know how the situation developed over time. In the illustrated diagram (figure 3) the order of the Tarot of Charles VI is compared with the traditional one of Bologna.")
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154#p18658

Now, considering the Chariot, the Florentine "origin" is underlined.
Image


There is a first row of several 7 Palles (May 1465)
And below many rows of 8 Palles. (ante May 1465 probably between August 1464 and April 1465)

Reference to Pierre de Medicis?

Yes about the French Fleur de Lys inclusion in the Florentine "Boules"...
Is it "an alternative fact" (smile) ? or is it grounded on reality ?...
My take is the following ...

Louis XI May 1465 and giving 3 fleurs de Lys to Pierre de Medecis.
Image


« Nous, Louis, par la Grâce de Dieu, Roi de France ,accordons par la présent acte à Pierre de Médicis et à ses héritiers et à ses successeurs nés et à naître de légitime mariage qu’ il puisse, à présent, dans l’avenir et pour toujours avoir et porter sur leur blason trois fleurs de lys Louis, roi de France, 1465. »

"A l’origine le blason était constitué de onze boules de gueules sur un champ d’or. Cosimo l’Ancien réduisit le nombre de boules à huit. Son fils Piero se contenta de sept, dont une chargée de fleur de lys au centre de l’écu. Ce dernier avait obtenu du roi de France Louis XI le droit d’arborer les fleurs de lys de France en récompense de services rendus à la couronne."
"Lorenzo le Magnifique continua le travail de simplification en réduisant le nombre de boules à six, plaçant la fleur-de-lysée au sommet de l’écu. Cosimo Ier finalement fixa définitivement les armoiries en optant pour un écu oval."
http://www.horizons-graphiques.com/hera ... lason.html

About the variations of the numbers of Palles and my take about the progressive simplication from 11 to 6 of numbers of Palles, see thread and discussion with Huck and I on :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=983&p=18408&hilit=boules#p184057
Huck had not given his approbation to this thesis from what I understood...
What is his position now ? I don't know.

Illustrations I found of the different Blasons .
Primitif Blason ? 11 palles
Image


Cosimo l' Ancien ? 8 Palles
Image


Pierre de Medicis ? 7 Palles
The one on the Chariot psChVI has 7 palles as on :
Image

http://www.sweetmemory.fr/article-flore ... 34478.html

Lorenzo and Cosimo I ? 6 Palles
Image



The first row of 7 Palles is a reference to Pierre de Medicis since May 1465
The other rows of 8 Palles underneath would refer to Pierre de Medicis before May 1465 : that between august 1464 and May 1465 - same Blason of 8 Palles as Cosme l'Ancien
So this is for me a clear suggestion of the 7 Palles on the Chariot "Warrior" of the psChVI would refer to the period under Perre de Medicis when Louis XI gives the 3 Fleurs de lys : after May 1465 and before december 1469.
May 1465 : Louis XI gives the Fleur de Lys to Pierre de Medicis who changes his Blason from 8 palles to 7
Added later : the double presence of the ancient 8 Palles (underneith rows) and the fous on the first row of 7 Palles suggets that this event is indicated on the Charioters card of the pseudo Charles VI..


Could also refer to :
Lorenzo's journey : 1465 ? Huck's preference if I understood him well...
Victory of Pierre de Medicis against the Complot of 1466 ?
Celebration of the Battle of Riccardina also called Molinella with Condottiere for Florence Frédéric de Montefeltre against Bartolomeo_Colleoni Condottierre of Venise : 25 juillet 1467?

"Le complot de 1466
Le ressentiment contre les Médicis s’est accumulé chez les familles écartées du pouvoir ou des affaires du vivant de Cosme. Il est renforcé par la décision prise par Pierre de recouvrer immédiatement les dettes dues à la banque Médicis. Les adversaires des Médicis s’unissent pour conspirer contre Pierre : Niccolo Soderini, par conviction républicaine, Diotisalvi Neroni, Angelo Acciaiuoli, et Luca Pitti, qui fait figure de chef de la conspiration, par dépit et par ambition. Ils constituent le parti de la colline (le Palais Pitti se situe sur la colline San Giorgio) par opposition au parti de la plaine, celui des Médicis (le palais des Médicis se situe via Larga dans le bas de Florence). Les conjurés trouvent un appui avec le comte Borso d'Este (soutenu secrètement par les Vénitiens). De son côté, Francesco Sforza soutient Pierre de Médicis. Le 27 août 1466, la faction soutenant les Médicis, et celle soutenant les conjurés se font face, sans toutefois déclencher le combat. Le 29 août les conjurés (à l’exception de Soderini) sont reçus par Pierre. Luca Pitti semble avoir été séduit par l’idée d’un mariage entre sa fille et Laurent et avoir abandonné la cause des conjurés. Sous la menace des troupes de Galeazzo-Maria Sforza, les conjurés viennent implorer le pardon de Pierre. Celui-ci est magnanime. Les chefs des rebelles sont bannis pour vingt ans, à l’exception de Luca Pitti, qui put demeurer à Florence jusqu'à sa mort en 1472.

La bataille de la Riccardina
Les bannis se réfugient à Venise. La Sérénissime leur permet de lever des troupes et met à leur tête son condottiere, Bartolomeo Colleoni. Florence, à son tour lève une armée, avec à sa tête Federico da Montefeltro. L’affrontement entre les deux camps, le 25 juillet 1467, à la bataille de la Riccardina (it) (appelée aussi bataille de la Molinella), est incertain. Le pape Paul II propose sa médiation. Elle est plutôt à l’avantage de Pierre puisque Florence y gagne Sarzana, la place de Castelnuovo de Lunigiana, et 37 000 florins. Angelo Acciaiuoli se réfugie à Ferrare et Soderini à Venise."
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Ie ... C3%A9dicis

Admitting that the passage from 8 Palles(Cosme l'Ancien) to 7 Palles as the Charioter of the psChVI Tarot, that is Pierre de Medicis before the 6 Palles of Lorenzo, we have 3 candidates:

1. Pierre Ier de Medicis himself :
Image

He succeded to Cosme l'Ancien in 1464. BUT it is only in May 1465 that he receives the Fleur de Lys and would have changed the 8 Palles of Cosme l'Ancien to 7.
Allusion to his victory on the conjuration of 1466?

2. Laurent de Medicis his son :
Image

Could refer to Lorenzo journey to Milan in October 1465 for the mariage in Milan of 'Ipolita Maria Sforza first wife of the duke of Calabra futur King of Naples
"Laurent se vit confier certaines missions diplomatiques. C’est ainsi qu’il se rendit à Milan au mariage d'Ippolita Maria Sforza, fille de Francesco Sforza, avec Alphonse d’Aragon, fils aîné de Ferdinand Ier de Naples. Ce fut l’occasion de renforcer l’alliance avec Milan, qui, depuis la paix de Lodi, le 9 avril 1454, constituait le socle de la diplomatie florentine."

3.Frederic III de Montefeltre
Image

Celebration of the Battle of Riccardina also called Molinella with Condottiere for Florence Frédéric de Montefeltre against Bartolomeo_Colleoni Condottierre of Venise : 25 juillet 1467 ?



Note 1 : Pierre de Medecis was a cultivated man and as his father a protector of Ficino and the best refuge of the Platonician Acadamy...
"Pierre de Médicis est avant tout un grand bibliophile. Le Filarete nous apprend qu’il regardait ses livres « comme si c'était un tas d'or6. » C'est également un lettré, et tout comme son père, le protecteur de Marsile Ficin. Celui-ci affirme que l’Académie n’a pas de refuge plus sûr que la prudence et la piété de Pierre."

Note 2 :
Later on, on the other way on, that is still memory of the 7 to 6, 7 Palles of the Medicis Blason becoming 6 is also suggested under the Cardinalat of Jules II de Medicis :
The 7th central Palle is abandonated but still present...
Villa Madama, salle de Guido Romano
Image


Reference : http://www.persee.fr/doc/jds_0021-8103_ ... m_2_1_1648 figure 4

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#13
As a ruler of Florence Piero di Cosimo de’Medici was in regular touch with the Mamluk Sultanate - he was also a collector of Mamluk metalware and glassware from Cairo and Damascus and it is possible that they provided the inspiration for this design for the stained glass oculus for the Oratory of Piero di Cosimo de’Medici in the Church of the Most Holy Annunciation in Florence - c1460/62

The Arabic Nashki/Thuluth script surrounding Piero's coat of arms, a script reserved for the Mamluk ruling elite, is of laudatory epiteths (his excellency - the Lord - the industrious - the wise - the royal) as if Piero is almost seeking to portray himself as some sort of Sultan or Emir of Florence!

The central motif is of course the familiar seven palle, the ring and feathers, and the motto 'semper' -
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#15
Alain ...
May 1465 : Louis XI gives the Fleur de Lys to Pierre de Medicis who changes his Blason from 8 palles to 7
Added later : the double presence of the ancient 8 Palles (underneith rows) and the fous on the first row of 7 Palles suggets that this event is indicated on the Charioters card of the pseudo Charles VI..
As far I understood the reports to 6 and 7 palle, the change from 7 to 6 occurred in May 1465. Though ... I remember, that none of the reports known to me had been on the documentary level.

Well, we can make a research for it to get this point clear ... the material in the web is today better than in earlier times:

Image

... more at ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=-X3eGY ... 22&f=false

It's generally stated, that the Medici had in earlier times more than 7 palle. So the Medici had already the family tradition to reduce the palle before.

Gozzoli had finished his pictures in the chapel c. 1464. Cosimo's death happened also in 1464.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#16
Well, if this datation is documented, it would mean that The Charioter could also refer to Pierre de Medicis father, Cosme l'Ancien ...
Cosme and the Palais Medicis - Riccardi 1445 - ?
Image

Added now : this could also explain the double presence of :
7 Palles on fist row
8 Palles on other rows.


About the Medicis Blason : http://www.horizons-graphiques.com/hera ... lason.html

Open topic!
Focus on May 1465 and the Fleur de Lys given by Louis XI would underline more Pierre de Medicis. Cosme is dead in August 1464.

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#17
The charioteer has no blue palle ... this points to "before 1465".

This has ...
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/1385386.pdf
... at page 247 ...
Signs of his intervention, in the form of stemme with seven palle, are on the facade of the
church and the arch of presbytery. Ferrara and Quinterio, Michelozzo di Bartolommeo, 356. There
is a Medici stone inscription in the convent from 1465 and an inscription on a choir stall. As for
the rest of the convent it is difficult to tell who built what, the Comune stemma does not appear.
However there is no fleur-de-lys on the stemma so the building can be dated to before 1465.
Robinson, Cosimo de’Medici’s Patronage of the Observantist Movement, 55-59
The text is about a church, which became ready in 1465. The author has the opinion, that the artist since 1465 used the blue palle. But no word about the number.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#18
This opinion of British library ...
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... ini&page=1
The present engraving belongs to the so-called 'Otto Prints'; for this group see the commentary to Hind, A.IV.2 (1852-3-1-3). According to Hind, the composition is copied from Hind, A.II.17, leaving out the huntsman in the background to adapt the present one to a circular space. The blank shields in the background have been filled in with pen and ink, the one on the l with the badge of the Medici (six 'palle', not used until 1465), and that on the r identified by Hind as "apparently that of Austria" although without any indications of colouring it is difficult to know if this identification is correct. Another impression of this print is in the Rothschild Collection (Louvre, Paris).
Image


Well, it must not be totally reliable.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#19
Robinson has a good point - even if it is not my primary hypothesis.

A Seven Palles Blason belonging to Cosme without the fleur de lys leads us necessary before May 1465.
And this is the case on the Charioter of the psChVI.

The double presence of 7 and 8 Palles rows would then suggest either Cosme de Medicis before August 1464 or Pierre de Medicis between August 1464 and before May 1465.

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#20
The seven palle also appear on the bridle of the young King (associated by some as a portrait of Lorenzo - which is unlikely, as Lorenzo was only 10 at the time) -

I don't think the magi painting proves an association of the seven palle with a particular Medici, only that it was in use by 'the' or 'a' Medici at the time of the painting (but I think I have seen it in reference to Cosimo the Elder before, but can't find the reference now) - it is definitely part of Piero's devise in the Oculus of the chapel I referenced above (c early 1460's) - also at the head of the group, behind the king, rides Piero de' Medici, who commissioned the frescoes. So if the seven Palle were reduced to such by Piero, they could have been used in the image in reference to Piero as commissioner of the Fresco - whatever, the Journey of the Magi and Piero's Oculus both testify to the use of seven palle by 1459 or the early 1460's - seven palle were part of Pierro's personal impressa before the death of his father cosimo, that is, its use, if by Piero, does not indicate a date after the death of Cosimo)

I had been looking at references to the textile before, most date it broadly to late 15th century - dating to ambiguous to be of any use --

So earliest date, '59 or early 1460's - it is tempting to define latest date by reference to use of six palle and fleur dy lyss to 1465 - but not totally reliable, a marriage bedside bench c-1508 between a Medici and Strozzi for example has the seven palle
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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