Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby SteveM on 11 Feb 2017, 03:15

Ercole d'Este coin:

Image

Dedication of manuscript copy of De fructibus vescendis by Baptista Massa de Argenta, 1471 to Ercole d'Este:

http://www.collegeofphysicians.org/hist ... ated-1471/
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ErcoleRing.jpg
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby Kate on 12 Feb 2017, 01:40

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:For the psChVI Charioter, the first rows of Stemma's with 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would be those of Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
Image


Lorenzo de’ Medici continued to use the seven-palli model. An example of its use during the reign of Lorenzo can be found in Botticelli’s Story of Nastagio Degli Onesti, Panels 1 and 3 (1483). The subject work may have been commissioned by Lorenzo for a marriage, which he negotiated between Giannozzo Pucci and Lucrezia Bini. In Panel 3, the Medici device of seven palli (fleur-de-lys at center) is flanked by the Pucci Moor’s Head (left), as well as the Pucci Moor’s Head impaled by the Bini heraldry (right).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... tagio4.jpg

But of particular interest is a maiolica plate (Montelupo, ca. 1516) depicting a Leo X procession. The flags carried by Leo’s soldiers bear the Medici seven-palli device—all red with no fleur-de-lys on a field of blue. Presumably, this is due to size restrictions—restrictions, which would, perforce, apply to the CVI as well.

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1218 ... er-of-the/

Another issue, which tends to complicate matters is the fact that many Medici supporters purportedly used the device. I would presume, however, that this would not extend to use of the fleur-de-lys, which the French crown granted only to the Medici and their heirs—not the populace of Florence.

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:High speculative nota :
Amongst the virtues, Temperance 's dress is also orned with flower (?) motifs kind of similar to the 7 Palles ...
The same textile repeating the Medicis pattern is on the Chariot immediately below the first rows of the 7 Palles of the Charioter.
Image
Now, if my correspondence between the flower motifs of the dress of the female figure of Temperance and the Medicis Palles motif is anything more than mere speculation , this kind of "textile" for women repeating Medicis motifs as ornement could be the allusion present in the very simple dress of Temperance repeating the Stemma in the psChVI Tarot.


I, too, commented some time ago on the link made by the CVI between the Chariot and Temperance via the matching, six-petalled, dotted floral motif (with a seventh point at center) or Medici device found on the Chariot’s drapes and Temperance’ gown.

The artist’s intent seems clear – nothing particularly speculative about this conclusion. The association between the Chariot and Temperance accords with contemporary convention. Moreover, you’ll note that the CVI, likewise, links the Pope with Fortitude via the same method. That is, each of these trumps exhibits the same, four-petalled floral motif somewhat similar in appearance to a patonce cross on the fabric of their attire.

An interesting aspect of this latter association resides—at first glance—in the different use of color. The Pope’s mantel features the conventional blue and gold (the colors identified with St. Peter), whereas, Fortitude’s gown is green with white embroidery. However, closer inspection of the Pope’s mantel near the hem discloses that it is lined with the same green used on Fortitude’s dress. (Cf. PMB Pope.)

This would seem to be a recurring pattern within the deck. For instance, it is possible that the CVI Moon trump combines the “Children of the Moon” trope with another trope (two men with compass measuring) seen in illustrations of Temperance (Cf. Pieter Brueghel the Elder, Temperance from the World of Seven Virtues, c. 1560.)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... C_1560.JPG

Regards,
Kate
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby Kate on 12 Feb 2017, 01:41

DELETED DUPLICATE POST
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 12 Feb 2017, 13:50

Kate wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:For the psChVI Charioter, the first rows of Stemma's with 7 Palles without Fleur de Lys would be those of Pietro de Medicis before May 1465
Image


Lorenzo de’ Medici continued to use the seven-palli model. An example of its use during the reign of Lorenzo can be found in Botticelli’s Story of Nastagio Degli Onesti, Panels 1 and 3 (1483). The subject work may have been commissioned by Lorenzo for a marriage, which he negotiated between Giannozzo Pucci and Lucrezia Bini. In Panel 3, the Medici device of seven palli (fleur-de-lys at center) is flanked by the Pucci Moor’s Head (left), as well as the Pucci Moor’s Head impaled by the Bini heraldry (right).

Image

But of particular interest is a maiolica plate (Montelupo, ca. 1516) depicting a Leo X procession. The flags carried by Leo’s soldiers bear the Medici seven-palli device—all red with no fleur-de-lys on a field of blue. Presumably, this is due to size restrictions—restrictions, which would, perforce, apply to the CVI as well."

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1218 ... er-of-the/



BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:

Regards,
Kate



Hi Kate

Considerations in 3 points.

1. You wrote :

"Another issue, which tends to complicate matters is the fact that many Medici supporters purportedly used the device. I would presume, however, that this would not extend to use of the fleur-de-lys, which the French crown granted only to the Medici and their heirs—not the populace of Florence."
Yes.


2. About Medicis later uses of the 7 Palles Stemma of Pietro de Medicis:

You wrote :
"Lorenzo de’ Medici continued to use the seven-palli model. An example of its use during the reign of Lorenzo can be found in Botticelli’s Story of Nastagio Degli Onesti, Panels 1 and 3 (1483). The subject work may have been commissioned by Lorenzo for a marriage, which he negotiated between Giannozzo Pucci and Lucrezia Bini. In Panel 3, the Medici device of seven palli (fleur-de-lys at center) is flanked by the Pucci Moor’s Head (left), as well as the Pucci Moor’s Head impaled by the Bini heraldry (right).
Image

But of particular interest is a maiolica plate (Montelupo, ca. 1516) depicting a Leo X procession. The flags carried by Leo’s soldiers bear the Medici seven-palli device—all red with no fleur-de-lys on a field of blue. Presumably, this is due to size restrictions—restrictions, which would, perforce, apply to the CVI as well.
Image
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1218 ... er-of-the/



Steve had noted :

" ... it is tempting to define latest date by reference to use of six palle and fleur dy lyss to 1465 - but not totally reliable, a marriage bedside bench c-1508 between a Medici and Strozzi for example has the seven palle"

And I later use :
Cardinalat Jules de Medicis - Villa Madama 1518 -1526
Villa Madama, salle de Guido Romano
Image
Image
Link : http://www.persee.fr/doc/jds_0021-8103_ ... m_2_1_1648 fig 4

3. You noted :
You wrote : "I, too, commented some time ago on the link made by the CVI between the Chariot and Temperance via the matching, six-petalled, dotted floral motif (with a seventh point at center) or Medici device found on the Chariot’s drapes and Temperance’ gown. "


I had written :
Amongst the virtues, Temperance 's dress is also orned with flower (?) motifs kind of similar to the 7 Palles ...
The same textile repeating the Medicis pattern is on the Chariot immediately below the first rows of the 7 Palles of the Charioter.
Image
Now, if my correspondence between the flower motifs of the dress of the female figure of Temperance and the Medicis Palles motif is anything more than mere speculation , this kind of "textile" for women repeating Medicis motifs as ornement could be the allusion present in the very simple dress of Temperance repeating the Stemma in the psChVI Tarot.
There is one example of this later on in 1492 but only a fragment much more elaborated and complex is left :
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/46.156.70/
"Though we cannot be sure of the original dimensions of the textile, it was probably woven as a long border, with a repeating pattern of the Medici device, which may have alternated with other symbolic emblems relating to the family. A valuable textile such as this, specifically woven for the Medici family, would most likely have been reserved for use during important family events, such as marriages, or used on an important piece of furniture, such as the best bed in the household or a canopy covering a ceremonial chair. The device of the three feathers encircled by the ring above the motto SEMPER was used to decorate a variety of objects; other examples include a maiolica bowl, horse trappings, and ceremonial headgear"
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TEXTILEMEDICIS.jpg
(228.76 KiB) Not downloaded yet

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/46.156.70/

So, if the speculation has any ground, this could explain the presence of this simple and protype textile repeating the Medicis Stemma either covering the Chariot or covering Temperance...as on the psChVI Charioter and Temperance...

About similarities berween floral or fruital motifs , Stemma with Fleur de Lys, Feathers and Diamond, a later use Villa Madama (1518-1526) :
Image
MEDICISSTEMMA.png
(1.01 MiB) Not downloaded yet

Image
MED11.PNG
(99.49 KiB) Not downloaded yet

http://www.persee.fr/doc/jds_0021-8103_ ... m_2_1_1648 Fig 5

About the use of Stemma in similarity to floral/fruifal motifs linked to Pietro de Medicis' Tabernacle (1468? 1469-1483) :
Image

"Fra' Domenico di Giovanni (Casentino, ... – Firenze, 27 ottobre 1483) è stato un teologo e religioso italiano. Domenicano, priore del Convento di Santa Maria Novella di Firenze, dove visse fino all'età di quasi ottanta anni, fu lettore ed espositore di Dante, provinciale di Toscana, vicario generale dell'Ordine.

Le sue esequie si tennero a spese del Comune di Firenze e dello Studio fiorentino, e il Convento di Santa Maria Novella ne fece in lingua latina il necrologio.

Scrisse La istoria di Firenze e il Theotokos, poema latino in lode della Vergine, che terminò nel 1468 e dedicò a Piero de' Medici. La prima copia di questo poema fu fatta nel 1471 da Piero di Giovanni Compagni, discepolo di Marsilio Ficino; la seconda copia fu eseguita da Jacopo di Niccolò Cocchi Donati e, nel 1475, esso provvide a donarla alla Libreria d'Ognissanti di Firenze, apponendo la dedica all'inizio del libro: Questo libro, che tracta di Nostra Donna Gloriosissima, e di me scriptore Iacopo di Nicholò di Chocho Donati cittadino fiorentino, istum librum largitus est praefatus Iacobus Nicholai Chochi Librariae S.Salvatoris hac die IV.Oct. 1475. Pro remedio animae suae. Io Iachopo Chochi così affermo.

Il poema Theotokos è diviso in quattro libri, più il proemio, dove c'è la dedica a Piero de' Medici. Nel primo libro l'autore parla della vita e della morte della Madre di Dio; nel secondo è esposta la gloria del suo Trionfo; nel terzo c'è un catalogo delle chiese dedicate alla Madonna a Roma e in Toscana; nel quarto vengono citate le chiese dedicate alla Madonna a Firenze e dintorni. Fra queste ultime si trova la Pieve dell'Impruneta e Domenico di Giovanni ricorda monsignor Antonio degli Agli che aveva fatto abbellire e adornare questa chiesa."

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fra'_Domenico_di_Giovanni
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 12 Feb 2017, 15:45

You also noted the association between Fortitude and Pope

"The artist’s intent seems clear – nothing particularly speculative about this conclusion. The association between the Chariot and Temperance accords with contemporary convention. Moreover, you’ll note that the CVI, likewise, links the Pope with Fortitude via the same method. That is, each of these trumps exhibits the same, four-petalled floral motif somewhat similar in appearance to a patonce cross on the fabric of their attire.

An interesting aspect of this latter association resides—at first glance—in the different use of color. The Pope’s mantel features the conventional blue and gold (the colors identified with St. Peter), whereas, Fortitude’s gown is green with white embroidery. However, closer inspection of the Pope’s mantel near the hem discloses that it is lined with the same green used on Fortitude’s dress. (Cf. PMB Pope.)"



Later on : FORTITUDE MASTERING THE LION and Jules II portraited underneath
Image
Image
http://www.persee.fr/doc/jds_0021-8103_ ... m_2_1_1648 p 353 note 9
MED5.PNG
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 02 Apr 2017, 13:47

My review on French Tradition des Tarot de Marseille :
Le pseudo Tarot dit de Charles VI
http://traditiontarot.com/viewtopic.php ... 386#p13386


Any comments to add ?
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby Huck on 02 Apr 2017, 20:30

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:My review on French Tradition des Tarot de Marseille :
Le pseudo Tarot dit de Charles VI
http://traditiontarot.com/viewtopic.php ... 386#p13386


Any comments to add ?


Néanmoins l'expression 'tarocus" se trouvait en usage dès 1485 ... si ma mémoire ne me fait pas défaut. Puf!


I guess, nobody had talked of 1485. I had specifically talked from September 1495, other opinions exist. There are 2 texts, as far I remember. One was published in 1521, the other must have been written before 1499, cause that is the death year of the author. This text has specific information about a conflict at a bridge in Asti ... I relate this to the peace negotiations between French troops and Milan, which took place in September 1495 in Asti. The author amuses himself about the bridge guard, which he calls a "tarocus". 3 months before Italian forces and French troops had their battle at the river Taro. The results were rather negative for the French troops.

During the negotiations, which endured a longer time, French troops in very bad conditions were still isolated in Novara. They were released after the peace contract was signed, but on the march from Novara to Asti a lot of them died for exhaustion.

The author is known to write macaroni texts, in which words are artfully conversed to Latin ... with funny results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaronic_language
"Tarocus" might be such a word ... in my opinion relating to victims of the battle at the river Taro. Others interpret this with the meaning of Fool.

The other author is also a macaroni poet, possibly he replies to the other author - later (according my interpretation). He's from the region of Asti and writes for the French site (the other author was clearly on Milanese site). His dialect is difficult to interpret. Possibly he turns the terminus in something positive.
He mentions the name "Ferragu"... that's a most interesting aspect. We had this name recently, in the case you remember.

I think, that "Tarocus" is an isolated word, not used by many, in context of the battle.
An alternative interpretation is the use of "Tarocch" in wood context (stump of a tree). We persecuted this word. You find the discussions with the help of the local search engine.
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 02 Apr 2017, 22:06

Thanks Huck
My memory was 10 years away! :)
But I took a joker for this datation ...
:D

1495? ante 1499
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby mikeh on 06 Apr 2017, 00:11

In your review, Alain, your link to my post about the various orders is incomplete and will not get you there by itself. It should be:
http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18659
(appearing however your forum software reduces that link)

and not simply
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18659
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby mikeh on 06 Apr 2017, 08:41

As to the origin of the words "tarot" and "tarocchi" there is also Depaulis 2013 in Le Tarot Revele, as well as Vitali at http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 20&lng=ENG and other essays linked to there. I have transcribed and translated Depaulis's piece at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502&p=19407#p19407.
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