Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#21
Thanks Steve.
So now for Pierre de Medicis we would have a datation prior to May 1465
Maybe from 1459/1460 ...
His first official charge is , as his father had been, Gonfalonier de Justice of Florence : 1461
"Fils de Cosme de Médicis et de la Contessina de Bardi, Pierre reste longtemps dans l’ombre de son père, même s’il occupe en 1461 la fonction de gonfalonier de justice.
Lorsque Cosme meurt le 1er août 1464, Pierre lui succède à la tête de la famille (et du parti) qui domine Florence, à la fois par le contrôle des institutions et par une politique d‘alliance avec d‘autres grandes familles florentines."
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#22
The old sacristy of the Cosmas/Damian chapel (Medici) done by Brunelleschi has 8 palle.
Die Sakristei von Brunelleschi, von Giovanni di Bicci de 'Medici in Auftrag gegeben, wurde zwischen 1421 und 1428. Ein erster Kontakt mit Donatello schon zurück bis 1428, als er begann, die ersten Reliefs zu liefern, darunter vielleicht die Runden zurückzuführen gebaut Geschichte von St. Johannes der Evangelist. Erst im Jahre 1434, nach Johns Tod und die Rückkehr nach Rom von Donatello, hatte Cosimo de 'Medici einen neuen Vertrag mit Donatello, der mehrfach gearbeitet, angesichts der Menge an Arbeit. Wir wissen, dass zu Beginn des Bildhauers für Padua Stuck und Bronzen wurden in Auftrag abgeschlossen alle acht Medaillons monumental, zwei Lünetten-soprapporte und zwei Bronzetüren.
http://destobesser.com/article/heiligen ... d-damian-2

The commission was done in Giovanni di Bicci's (father of Cosimo) life time.

Image

Larger picture at ...
http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei/ ... apels.html
"Brunelleschi, Od Sacristy" ... click it.

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#24
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Thanks Steve.
So we now have a datation prior to May 1465
Maybe from 1459/1460 ...
"Fils de Cosme de Médicis et de la Contessina de Bardi, Pierre reste longtemps dans l’ombre de son père, même s’il occupe en 1461 la fonction de gonfalonier de justice.
Lorsque Cosme meurt le 1er août 1464, Pierre lui succède à la tête de la famille (et du parti) qui domine Florence, à la fois par le contrôle des institutions et par une politique d‘alliance avec d‘autres grandes familles florentines."
Well, you likely don't know it, but I assume, that the 16 special cards of the Charles VI Tarocchi (the 17th card is a Fante) were complete in their number and I assume, that it was done for the Medici (likely for the young Lorenzo) in 1463.
This are two pictures made for my own considerations of a relationship between Chess and early Trionfi cards. I perceive especially the decks Cary-Yale Tarocchi and the so-called Charles VI as very relevant in the question (additionally also the Michelino deck).
My Chess Tarot hypothesis is discussed at many places in this Forum.

Cary-Yale Tarocchi
Image

with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/cy-jpg.jpg

Charles VI Tarot
Image

with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/ch-jpg.jpg

The pictures were much work, so they are copyrighted.
They were presented inside ...
viewtopic.php?f=12&p=11263#p11263

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=460&start=60#p12319

Actually that's a theory of 2007. The pictures were made in 2012.
Yes.
I had Cosme l'Ancien as 8 Palles.
It appears that 8 Palles were also Cosme's father Blason


So, 7 Palles present in Cosme the Elder's time
8 Palles present in his father's time.
... yes, and from this observation it would make sense to assume, that it was Piero, who took the six palle, not Lorenzo. Well, who knows ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#26
An old, and perhaps outdated source, has:

"Thus the title of " Medici Balls " has been given to
the following record of seven little journeys in Tus-
cany by the authors, who in all their travels, even in
lanes and modest farm-houses, have found themselves
under the aegis of the powerful banker - princes of
Florence. The shield, bearing seven red balls on
a field of gold, represents the arms of Piero de' Medici,
and the period when Medicean supremacy was at its
height ; in the sequence of balls employed by the vari-
ous members of the family, it serves to connect the
eight balls displayed on the arms of Cosimo, Pater
Patriae, the munificent financier, with the six balls of
Lorenzo the Magnificent, in whom the glory and re-
nown of the family culminated."

The Medici Balls
SEVEN LITTLE JOURNEYS
IN TUSCANY
by
ANNA R. SHELDON
M. MOYCA NEWELL
1904

So in summary - we know seven palle were a part of the personal impressa of Piero, which he used for personal use prior to the death of his father - in reference to the use of such in the Journey of the Magi fresco, where it appears on the harnesses of the horses of several characters - it is perhaps pertinent that it was Piero who commissioned the fresco - whatever,the earliest reference we have to its use so far is the Magi fresco (commissioned by Piero), and the Oculus of Pierro - so early 1460's, possibly as early as 1459 (when the Fresco was started and by and large completed?) -

The fairly standardized use of six palle and fleur dy lyss post may- 1465 gives us (a not totally reliable) terminus date of 1465 --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#28
Huck wrote

Well, you likely don't know it, but I assume, that the 16 special cards of the Charles VI Tarocchi (the 17th card is a Fante) were complete in their number and I assume, that it was done for the Medici (likely for the young Lorenzo) in 1463.

Alain

If I'd think aloud, I have also the idea that the psChVI is complete as 16 Triomphes
It is because the Numbers are added a little later than the paintings.
So this could suggest that the initial paintings were not numbered.
« Les chiffres indiqués sont ceux lisibles, partiellement ou non, en haut des cartes – sauf pour le Pendu, où le chiffre est inscrit en bas, « à l’envers ». Ces chiffres romains sont tracés à l’encre et paraissent légèrement postérieurs à la réalisation des cartes (première moitié du XVIè siècle au plus tard) » (1)

La datation est issue des résultats de l’examen effectué par le Laboratoire de Recherche des Musées du Louvre (1) .
Or, comme le souligne Thierry Depaulis : ils » sont formels : les pigments employés ne permettent pas d’aller au-delà d’une datation très générale. La présence de rabats, que souligne le rapport d’analyse, témoigne en faveur d’une fabrication tardive, même si, manifestement, le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée, comme c’est aussi le cas pour les cartes de la Collection Rothschild » (1)
(1) Bibliographie : Thierry Depaulis, Tarot , Jeu et Magie, pp 40 – 41 Bibliothèque Nationale, 1984

...but i still have a special favor for Pietro de Medicis and not Lorenzo...
(smile)

Steve's find : probably 1461 when Pierre de Medicis becomes Gonfalonier of Florence, I think...Steve suggests that is could be a little earlier 1459/1460...
"So in summary - we know seven palle were a part of the personal impressa of Piero, which he used for personal use prior to the death of his father - in reference to the use of such in the Journey of the Magi fresco, where it appears on the harnesses of the horses of several characters - it is perhaps pertinent that it was Piero who commissioned the fresco - whatever,the earliest reference we have to its use so far is the Magi fresco (commissioned by Piero), and the Oculus of Pierro - so early 1460's, possibly as early as 1459 (when the Fresco was started and by and large completed?) -

The fairly standardized use of six palle and fleur dy lyss post may- 1465 gives us (a not totally reliable) terminus date of 1465 --"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18663
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#29
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Huck wrote

Well, you likely don't know it, but I assume, that the 16 special cards of the Charles VI Tarocchi (the 17th card is a Fante) were complete in their number and I assume, that it was done for the Medici (likely for the young Lorenzo) in 1463.

Alain

If I'd think aloud, I have also the idea that the psChVI is complete as 16 Triomphes
It is because the Numbers are added a little later than the paintings.
So this could suggest that the initial paintings were not numbered.
« Les chiffres indiqués sont ceux lisibles, partiellement ou non, en haut des cartes – sauf pour le Pendu, où le chiffre est inscrit en bas, « à l’envers ». Ces chiffres romains sont tracés à l’encre et paraissent légèrement postérieurs à la réalisation des cartes (première moitié du XVIè siècle au plus tard) » (1)

La datation est issue des résultats de l’examen effectué par le Laboratoire de Recherche des Musées du Louvre (1) .
Or, comme le souligne Thierry Depaulis : ils » sont formels : les pigments employés ne permettent pas d’aller au-delà d’une datation très générale. La présence de rabats, que souligne le rapport d’analyse, témoigne en faveur d’une fabrication tardive, même si, manifestement, le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée, comme c’est aussi le cas pour les cartes de la Collection Rothschild » (1)
(1) Bibliographie : Thierry Depaulis, Tarot , Jeu et Magie, pp 40 – 41 Bibliothèque Nationale, 1984

...but i still have a special favor for Pietro de Medicis and not Lorenzo...
(smile)

Steve's find : probably 1461 when Pierre de Medicis becomes Gonfalonier of Florence, I think...Steve suggests that is could be a little earlier 1459/1460...
"So in summary - we know seven palle were a part of the personal impressa of Piero, which he used for personal use prior to the death of his father - in reference to the use of such in the Journey of the Magi fresco, where it appears on the harnesses of the horses of several characters - it is perhaps pertinent that it was Piero who commissioned the fresco - whatever,the earliest reference we have to its use so far is the Magi fresco (commissioned by Piero), and the Oculus of Pierro - so early 1460's, possibly as early as 1459 (when the Fresco was started and by and large completed?) -

The fairly standardized use of six palle and fleur dy lyss post may- 1465 gives us (a not totally reliable) terminus date of 1465 --"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18663
As long Cosimo was alive, he was the head of the family. I never read anything different. Naturally Cosimo had delegated a lot of things to his sons. Piero had the commission to care for art and literature, as far I remember, just following his interests. This doesn't mean, that he changed the palle, a global family symbol.

Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

#30
Hmmm
I understand.
The argument in favor of Lorenzo could be that he is said to have taken in charge the family affairs as soon as 15 years old (1464?) and officialy at his twenty (1469).
http://www.histoireeurope.fr/RechercheL ... +M%E9dicis
Yet Pietro remains the Head of the Family even sick until december 1469.
The change of Palles with the Fleurs de Lys integrated given by Louis XI to Pietro de Medicis and his "descendants" .occurs only after May 1465.As the Charioter of the psCh VI has no Fleur de Lys, it has to be, probably, before this datation.

Coming back to Pietro .

You wrote :
"As long Cosimo was alive, he was the head of the family. I never read anything different. Naturally Cosimo had delegated a lot of things to his sons. Piero had the commission to care for art and literature, as far I remember, just following his interests. This doesn't mean, that he changed the palle, a global family symbol. "

Well, we know that Pietro was named Gonfalonier of Florence in 1461, just as his father and gran fathers had been before.
This is more than arts and litterarure..
"Pierre reste longtemps dans l’ombre de son père, même s’il occupe en 1461 la fonction de gonfalonier de justice. Lorsque Cosme meurt le 1er août 1464, Pierre lui succède à la tête de la famille (et du parti) qui domine Florence, à la fois par le contrôle des institutions et par une politique d‘alliance avec d‘autres grandes familles florentines"
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Ie ... C3%A9dicis
What did it consist as charge?
"À Florence, le Gonfalonnier de justice est le chef du gouvernement à l'époque de la République.
Dans cette ville, le gonfalonnier était l'un des neuf citoyens sélectionnés tous les deux mois pour former le gouvernement de la seigneurie de Florence. Il avait la charge de gérer la justice et il était gardien de l'étendard de la ville qui était porté accroché à une hampe croisée. Pour le distinguer de ses huit compagnons, sa veste était bordée d'hermine et décorée d'étoiles dorées. Le même titre est aussi utilisé à Lucques et Sienne."

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonfalonnier

He was also ambassador to Sforza in 1450 and to Venice in 1454
https://books.google.fr/books?id=rKFWAA ... 61&f=false

Clearly more than hobbies in arts and litterature...
Did this legitimate him to have arms before his father's death? The stained glass of the Oculus of Pierro found by Steve is dated circa 1460 - 1462...
"As a ruler of Florence Piero di Cosimo de’Medici was in regular touch with the Mamluk Sultanate - he was also a collector of Mamluk metalware and glassware from Cairo and Damascus and it is possible that they provided the inspiration for this design for the stained glass oculus for the Oratory of Piero di Cosimo de’Medici in the Church of the Most Holy Annunciation in Florence - c1460/62

The Arabic Nashki/Thuluth script surrounding Piero's coat of arms, a script reserved for the Mamluk ruling elite, is of laudatory epiteths (his excellency - the Lord - the industrious - the wise - the royal) as if Piero is almost seeking to portray himself as some sort of Sultan or Emir of Florence!

The central motif is of course the familiar seven palle, the ring and feathers, and the motto 'semper' -"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1154&start=10#p18663

This corresponds to the psChVI Charioter first rows of 7 Palles

Remarq:
As for the rows 8 Palles underneith the first row of 7 Palles, I think they may be an allusion to his father and gran father's arms - even if Cosme could also have a 7 Palles Blason ... Kind of legitimacy of his right from lineage Gran Father / Father/ Son ... (Btw also 3 Gonfaloniers of Florence)

Open topic!

Mikeh? Phaeded? Someone else?
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