Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

21
Phaeded wrote
But again, the PMB did not bother to match the trump suit to the other four suit's number of cards, so why should the CY have done so?
I do not know whether the PMB originally had the same number of trump cards as suit cards. There are reasons for and against. I would not use Huck's argument in general, because triumphs we know are a special case.

However, the CY is the verifiably earliest (this excludes the Catania, which might be earlier) tarot deck we know any details about at all. It is 10 years at least before the PMB. It is more likely to be in the "developmental" stage, if there was one.

There are other reasons for 16, even specifically in the same 4x4 assignments of trumps to suits as in the case of the Marziano. At viewtopic.php?f=11&t=862&p=18058&hilit=Beinecke#p18058, I gave my reasons for tentatively accepting the Beinecke trump to suit assignments as genuine. You ignore them, so I will repeat that passage here. I am talking about how in their catalogue entry every trump is assigned to one of the four regular suits:
There is no way any librarian, even a specialist in cards in Italy such as the Visconti di Madrone might have used, would have thought of assigning trumps to suits, even if they did have the temerity to make things up (for which see below). There was no other tarot deck in the world that had such assignments. The only other European card deck I know of that did so is the Marziano, and its suit assignments weren't public knowledge until Pratesi's article in 1989. The only way they could have known about it before then would have been to read the original document (discovered in 1890s Paris), make the connection to the Cary-Yale, and then make up the assignments. That is not likely. Moreover, the assignments are so irregular that even if anyone did think of assigning trumps to suits, they wouldn't have done it in the way it is done. Swords starts out reasonably enough, with Empress and Emperor, Love; then everything is strange-- well, the 3 theologicals being before Chariot, and Chastity in a different suit from the others--until the last, Coins, with World and Judgment, in that order. Even that order is a surprise, for Milan (although to me reasonable enough). Of course I do not expect that "Judgment" was the original name for that card. Somebody had the temerity to add this title, I hope merely as a translation of something else; it might also have been meant as an informed guess. But such an addition would be a commonplace assumption, unlike suit assignments and the order.
I asked the Beinecke curator for more details on what came with the cards that led the original cataloguer to make the catalogue entries as they were, i.e. what language the information was in, the exact wording, etc.. He says he went through all the files last summer when he had to move the office, and there was absolutely nothing more. Archivists even in the late 20th century did not keep their evidence, just as they did not do so in the 14th. Apparently there are no standards. All we know is that the cataloguing was done several years before Pratesi's 1989 article.

If there are 4 trumps assigned per regular suit, that makes 16. It could be 12, 20, or 24. Given the parallel with the Marziano, 16 fits what is there, namely 5 Petrarchans (titles only, not sentiment), 4 Virtues, and 2 Imperials. 12 would leave out 2 virtues and 1 Petrarchan. 20 would require an additional motif (or a different way of seeing the old ones).

A third reason for inferring 16 trumps is the chess analogy; it is not a basis for constructing the deck, but it is a bonus that recommends itself. Fame and Angel both have towers (like rooks); Emperor and Empress both have royal insignia (like King and Queen). Chariot and Death both have horses (like knights). There is room in the crow for one more pair, which at least would have had something in common with each other (the old men of Time and Fortune), if not precisely to the bishops on the chess board. If Love desirous of marriage is seen as a virtue, or at least ennobling, then there could easily be 8 virtues, matching the pawns.

It would be good, Phaeded, if you would list the reasons why the PMB likely does not have 14 trumps, apart from your Dante theory, which begs the question because it is simply one hypothesis against another.

My reasoning is mainly the lack of cardinal virtues. It is not what Dummett says, that because the CY had 4 cardinal virtues, the PMB must have had at least the 3 it eventually got. They are different regimes, and we know that at least 1 of the cardinals eventually got dropped, as well as the theologicals. By analogy, it is possible that the BB dropped 2 cardinals, to make it 5x14, and that the PMB dropped 1 more, but added 2 later, to conform to the tarot elsewhere.

Against that, my reasoning is as follows. It has to do not with the PMB itself, which I suspect was mostly not used for play, but with the common deck it corresponds to. I cannot see that the Sforza family, given that they have the CY and have seen decks from Florence, would countenance a deck for parents and children, in their own home and in the city they controlled, that did not emphasize the moral virtues, including especially Temperance, an extremely important virtue for an adolescent to know about and for the image of the city. It is not a deck dictated by adolescents. No other early tarot is without Temperance (assuming that is what the Stag card is in the Catania), and most also have Fortitude. So for these reasons there are at least 16 trumps.

In addition it seems to me that the World card has a stable enough iconography between the CY and the other early decks, luxury as well as common--castles in a bubble, or at least hemisphere--that what we see is likely a replacement.

That the 6 added cards of the PMB object are replacements rather than new subjects seems to me dictated by what is on the cards. They look like memorials of particular people. That is especially clear in the case of Forza, Temperance, Star and Moon (all with the same person, similar to portraits that others have taken for good reason to be Elisabeta Maria Sforza), but I suspect it is also true for Sun and World.

I cannot speculate on whether there were a Devil and a Tower.

It therefore seems to me that the deck had at least 17 triumphs originally (including a World card). As to when the Celestials, in some form (even as Theologicals), became part of the deck I cannot see any rationale for saying one way or another (well, I take that back: there is a detail on a 1462 Bembo painting that corresponds to the Ferrara Star card; that is a reason for saying at least by the 1460s). It does seem to me that the 6 cards we have were added many years after the original ones, not only to allow for the technology to develop for thinner cards, but because the art historians say 1480s unanimously and having seen the Bendetto Bembo painting Dummett likened to the 6 cards (it is on the web) and also the work of Cicognara (compare with e.g. my photo of http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-H5t4JYAqn3s/V ... G_1685.JPG), I, too, go with Cicognara.

I would appreciate any additional rationales. It does not seem to me that we can infer that it was 22 based on what we see later, maybe as early as the 1460s for Boiardo, because 1450-1455, the probable date of the original cards, are too near the peace of Lodi, which I would see as one likely candidate for the great leveler, although over the course of some years. The argument that it must have been earlier because the subjects are all the same, and in roughly the same order, does not convince me, because the last few triumphs (among Devil to Sun, always in that precise order) could easily have been added to the others after the others, to make 22, all at once or in stages. After 1453 or so, communication among centers was good enough to keep the additions inserted in the same place in the sequence everywhere, even if all the triumphs were not exactly the same everywhere.

Finally, there is one reason, not a conclusive one, against the CVI having 16 triumphs including the Fool, namely the numbers on the cards, which go up to 20. There is also one reason, stronger, for thinking that the CVI, if it did have 16 triumphs, did not represent the typical common deck in Florence, namely, that the other luxury deck more or less contemporaneous with the CVI and much like it in appearance, the Catania, had an Empress. The PMB, in a town friendly to Florence then, also had an Empress, as did the CY before that. The Rosenwald later had an Empress. It seems to me unlikely that the typical common deck at the time of the CVI would not have had an Empress. And if the Star could make it between Ferrara and Milan (well, Cremona, but that's close enough), it can probably make it to Florence, too, by the 1460s.

For the rest in Florence all we have are the numbers on the CVI in support of their presence (and for one of the Bagat and the Popess, not even that), which is something but admittedly not enough.
Last edited by mikeh on 26 Mar 2018, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

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teveM wrote, of Bernardo Lapini di Monte Ilicino, Gli sonetti, canzone e Triumphi del Petrarca, col commento[/i]:
There is a pdf with text version of a 1478 edition here:

https://archive.org/details/ita-bnc-in2-00001926-001

(118.1m)

There is also a text version there, but it is a complete mess.
of which I attempted to summarize the contents at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1130&start=10#p18316.

But my summary is a mistake. I had downloaded the "pdf" version as opposed to the "pdf with text" one. The former, as is evident from my summary, is clearly not the book advertised. I tried downloading the "pdf with text" version. In this case what I got was, first, a long commentary on the sonnets and canzone by Filelfo, addressed to Filippo Maria, duke of Milan, with each sonnet and canzone reproduced as a kind of sidebar to the commentary. Then on p. 194 of the pdf it changes to the Commento on the Triumphs by Lapini, which goes on for around 400 fairly dense pages. The whole is a printed work in Gothic script and so for my unaccustomed eyes rather difficult to read, in fact, with the obsolete spellings, virtually impossible. The text version is even worse, as the OCR program has no idea what to do with Gothic print.

One nice thing, however, is that the pdf's ability to do searches is of some practical use, if you know how to spell the word in the form that the OCR program knows. For example, while nothing turns up for "triomph", if you put in "triompb" it gives you 60 places where that letter combination occurs, which in reality are "triomph-". A Gothic "h" looks more like a Roman "b" than a Roman "h". I have not studied all of the occurrences of that letter combination in detail, as the size of the file seems to be too much for my very old computer. I will try to find another computer to use. I am not hopeful that there is anything in the text about triumph cards, at least that can be found by that method. I also searched for the letter combination "cbar", of course. Nothing like "charte" came up (cards, in the old spelling), nor for "char", "car" or "naib". Any other suggestions?

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

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mikeh wrote:teveM wrote, of Bernardo Lapini di Monte Ilicino, Gli sonetti, canzone e Triumphi del Petrarca, col commento[/i]:
There is a pdf with text version of a 1478 edition here:

https://archive.org/details/ita-bnc-in2-00001926-001

(118.1m)

There is also a text version there, but it is a complete mess.
of which I attempted to summarize the contents at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1130&start=10#p18316.

But my summary is a mistake...
There is another online version which Ross gave a link to in another thread*, but the text in this one is the clearer, and to my eyes at least, the more readable of the two, and is searchable to a degree (and can be improved upon by such 'tricks' as you suggest). I have made a search of the text, and Ross too in another thread mentions various searches of the text he has previously made.

SteveM

It is mentioned in several posts after first being introduced by Ross in thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1107&p=17095&hilit=Lapini#p17095
Last edited by SteveM on 22 Dec 2016, 09:39, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

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Thanks, Steve. I see that Ross says he's searched the BnF document in vain for references to the game of triumphs. Do we know if the BnF version has everything that the 1478 version has?

Another question, this one for Huck. Looking for the sources of his information about Pietro Lapini,

This one, about his taking over for Marziano, http://www.lauramalinverni.net/sforza.pdf, takes me to http://lauramalinverni.net/, where I find no pdf with the /sforza tag.

Also the one about him writing a commentary on the Canzione, http://www.jrank.org/literature/pages/1 ... aries.html, doesn't take me to anything of interest.

Perhaps you can re-find these.

Two others, http://www.storiadimilano.it/Personaggi ... omaria.htm and http://www.cisui.unibo.it/annali/10/tes ... ameset.htm, are good.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

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mikeh wrote:Thanks. I was hoping she would give a source. I see none. Do you? Without a source, it's only a lead, a suggestion, although admittedly (like my source for the Visconti tarot suit assignments) not likely one she or anyone else just made up.
One surely would find something, if one starts to focus him ...

for instance ...

Image

About 30 pages about him are here promised, in Italian language.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/pie ... ografico)/
... with a long list of references
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

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mikeh wrote: It would be good, Phaeded, if you would list the reasons why the PMB likely does not have 14 trumps, apart from your Dante theory, which begs the question because it is simply one hypothesis against another.

My reasoning is mainly the lack of cardinal virtues. It is not what Dummett says, that because the CY had 4 cardinal virtues, the PMB must have had at least the 3 it eventually got. They are different regimes, and we know that at least 1 of the cardinals eventually got dropped, as well as the theologicals.
Besides the obvious that there is no other tarot deck with those specific 14 trumps, gladly; and my focus will be on historical context.

The problem of SUBSET: We all assume a subset within the trumps (Petrarch, 'ranks of man', 'celestials', etc.) but the only self-evident subset in the CY, that needs no recourse to external 'evidence', are the 7 virtues. Florence simply would not have created a series of 6 virtues, and in my view its clear the CY 'World' was in fact the 'fame of a prudent ruler and his domain' - where subsequent developments of the card placed the emphasis on the rightly ordered domain so that prudence is no longer read (except for the prevailing political philosophy that a well-ordered domain proceeded from a prudent ruler/regime, the necessary active virtue for ruling).

NO 8TH VIRTUE: there is no evidence of the '8th virtue' of Humility in tarot (and thus no basis for 16), and even in the numerous pictorial series of the virtues in Florence the only time Humility is added is to complete a symmetrical composition, as in the bronze doors of the baptistry. There are only 7 virtues on the Loggia dei Lanzi, Campanile, Mercanzia spalliere, etc.

The SEVEN VIRTUES HAVE EXEMPLI or ANTITYPES: see the works of dal Ponte, Pesellino, Giotto, etc.

The premise then is we are dealing with subsets of seven. Seven is initially doubled in the Ur and CY (exempli) and then tripled in the PMB (+ Fool).

Your argument that the virtues were not retained because of “different regimes” is ridiculous – Sforza’s connection to the preceding regime was one of the few rationales that he had to legitimize himself with. To quote from my long-winded ‘Literary Source’ post once again:
But why was the trionfi project, that we now call the PMB, necessary? All available means of persuading public opinion to both enemies within Milan and without, were desperately utilized by Sforza for what he had just done was usurped an Imperial Duchy without the blessing of the Emperor. The scholarly work on which I have heavily leaned on to explore Sforza’s fragile status is Gary Ianziti’s Humanistic Historiography under the Sforzas: Politics and Propaganda in Fifteenth-Century Milan . (Oxford, I988). The basic problem was thus:
There can be little doubt that Francesco Sforza, in his precarious position, was counting heavily upon the imperial investiture. It alone could have assuaged beyond all question the rightfulness of the Sforza claim to the Visconti possessions. Without the imperial privilege, Sforza lay open to the accusation actually advanced by his enemies of being a tyrannus ex defectu tituli. The legality of his acts could be questioned, his infeudation policy crippled. The absence of the investiture automatically lent greater weight to the claims of the rival pretenders to the duchy, whose credentials might be thought to be in better order than Sforza. (27)
Sforza’s initially used two primary arguments: he had legally inherited the duchy via his father-in-law’s will, the donation inter vivos (hereafter “donation”) and the transaltio (hereafter “translation”) of full powers to Sforza by the Milanese popolo. The donation was forged by the Sforza chancery in 1448 when he switched from being the Ambrosian Republic’s victorious general to that of the of the invading Venetians via the Peace of Rivoltella in which Venice agreed to help Sforza master of Milan in exchange for some westerly cities, particularly Crema. This Peace Treaty, I believe, is the only item that adequately explains the highest court card of the PMB, the King of Swords, who holds a shield on which is Venice’s Lion of St. Mark. The meaning is at once ironic (i.e., why was Venice at war Sforza if they had recognized the donation in 1448 and agreed to help make him duke?) and a cautionary tale to Sforza’s lieutenants who might defect to Venice (as in fact his ablest general, Bartolommeo Colleoni, did in 1451 – the message would have been: why trust Venice if I recently held their baton and they are now at war with me?).

The translation was based on powers once invested in the independent Commune of Milan in the thirteenth century. Both, however, were scoffed at by the Emperor, whose position was entirely legal and irrefutable:
…the elevation of Milan to the status of duchy had canceled the privileges granted to the Lombard communes at the peace of Constance. In the eyes of the law, Sforza was a usurper; the duchy was officially vacant and should devolve to the Empire.(29) (Ianziti adds) The Emperor soon began to show signs of irritation at the mere mention of the donation and translation, acts which themselves had no legal validity. Sforza thus instructed his ambassadors to avoid mentioning them, and to concentrate instead on his deeds alone as the fundamental basis for his claim to the investiture. (31)
Therefore the reasons for the translation and his deeds, why Milan granted the duchy to Sforza, becomes central to the arguments made by Sforza’s chancery and they are fourfold: 1. Filippo’s donation (recognized as a forgery and thus drops out altogether as a rationale); 2. the fame and glory of his house in the person of his father Muzio degli Attendoli; 3. His wife Bianca Visconti, the only issue of Filippo Visconti; 4. Sforza’s virtus: “This final point occupies more space than all of the rest put together, and is obviously the most important.” (ibid, 30). It came down to “might makes right” and who could question Sforza’s might? He was virtually undefeated on the field of battle and had inflicted devastating losses on Venice, especially at Caravaggio in 1448 (before defecting to the Venetians). In regard to point three, his wife Bianca, it is notable that a medal struck by the same artist (Pisanello) also struck a medal for Visconti, apparently in the same year (c. 1440), right before the marriage to Bianca. Appearing on this medal is the Latinized name of Visconti, Vicomes; in fact, on all of the official correspondence issued by Sforza before his official entry into Milan gives this very title, implying that he is Visconti.
So despite the overwhelming need to advertise Sforza’s virtus, the Strength card, a virtual homonym for his very name (in which Sforza threatens a cowering lion, symbol of Venice), was an afterthought and added later? Please. In fact Sforza directly appears in two of the virtues - Justice and Strength – which are the very two virtues flanking the monumental equestrian statue of Bernabo Visconti, which must have impressed Sforza as the Milanese condottiero’s model of virtus (something his father-in-law was certainly lacking). Moreover, it must be Sforza featured on the 'CY World' card (it wasn't too-fat Filippo arriving from elsewhere on horseback), but now he's going to dispense with that card altogether in the PMB? The PMB World features putti because the equally large issue facing Sforza was dynastic succession - he has that with children via Bianca. Per above, she is one of his principal rationales for his claims on the duchy (and again, he was not papally-aligned, thus the theological get replaced - e.g., 'Faith' becomes a Franciscan tertiary as an inclusive symbol of the Church).

And it finally occurred to me that the PMB may not be an expanded, replaced or executed by two different hands at the same time…but surviving trumps from two different decks based on the same prototype (if not one being the prototype), purchased by the same collector. We at least have the evidence of a collector willing to part with a subset of that very collection.

Phaeded
Last edited by Phaeded on 23 Dec 2016, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

29
Phaeded wrote:
mikeh wrote: It would be good, Phaeded, if you would list the reasons why the PMB likely does not have 14 trumps, apart from your Dante theory, which begs the question because it is simply one hypothesis against another.

...
Besides the obvious that there is no other tarot deck with those specific 14 trumps, gladly;
... :-) ... Well, it's obvious, that none of the 15th century Trionfi decks or deck fragments would fulfill a similar condition. The 5x14 deck has - better than most others - at least a 5x14-deck to which it can to refer to: The 5x14-deck of Master PW. That's more, what most other can do beside Boiardo poem and Sola-Busca, which confirm together the existence of the deck form of 4x14+22, but are rather far from the common motifs.

....
And it finally occurred to me that the PMB may not be an expanded, replaced or executed by two different hands at the same time…but surviving trumps from two different decks based on the same prototype (if not one being the prototype), purchased by the same collector. We at least have the evidence of a collector willing to part with a subset of that very collection.
Agreed, that's a possibility. A collector would gather, what he gets into his hands. But the phenomenons would stay, what they are ...

0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10- -12-13- -20 (in the deck part of artist 1)
14 pictures for Bianca Maria Sforza (1441)
70 cards production in Ferrara (1457)
no real evidence for the Tarot deck structure 4x14+22 till the Boiardo poem

For your historical contexts: that's not very suggestive, imho. You seem to talk there about Sforza and his life and his problems with Fredrick III, not about his deck and your deciding reason, why the number of trump cards should be 21 or 22 and nothing else. "3x7 = 21" (actually more like "3, 7, 21") is, as far I remember, a Chinese proverb to express "everything is wonderful and in order", but Milan is not China and European card decks knew a lot of different forms. The Sforza decks hadn't 7 virtues. The 41 or 41 trumps of Minchiate can also not parted in groups of 7, although the Minchiate has all 7 virtues.

Nonetheless, merry christmas to you ... :-) ... we can discuss the point later
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

30
Huck wrote:You seem to talk there about Sforza and his life and his problems with Fredrick III, not about his deck and your deciding reason...
Why don't you address the card and "deciding reason" I went into the most depth about? If it doesn't make sense for Sforza to ignore the Fortitude card, already in existence since the CY, then you can junk your two-phase PMB theory. Critique away, please:
I wrote:
So despite the overwhelming need to advertise Sforza’s virtus, the Strength card, a virtual homonym for his very name (in which Sforza threatens a cowering lion, symbol of Venice), was an afterthought and added later? Please. In fact Sforza directly appears in two of the virtues - Justice and Strength – which are the very two virtues flanking the monumental equestrian statue of Bernabo Visconti, which must have impressed Sforza as the Milanese condottiero’s model of virtus (something his father-in-law was certainly lacking). Moreover, it must be Sforza featured on the 'CY World' card (it wasn't too-fat Filippo arriving from elsewhere on horseback), but now he's going to dispense with that card altogether in the PMB?
The King of Swords' shield clearly indicates Venice. The lion by itself can indicate Venice (without halo, wings or book), per the Venetians themselves (pre-PMB https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... A11888.jpg and post-PMB http://www.akg-images.co.uk/Docs/AKG/Me ... 110680.jpg) so the cowering lion before Sforza's Strength, in the Strength card is likely Venice (or to add to Ross's insight, the astrological decan of Victory is victory over Venice, as in any number of battles Sforza won).

After 1454 and the Peace of Lodi, Venice was no longer a primary concern for Sforza (getting the imperial blessing still was)...and Venice had its own shield/baton-bearer: Colleoni (not Sforza).

Sforza was making tarot in Cremona during the war (per Malatesta), and its unfathomable that he would ignore the Fortitude trump (and that it would be unrelated to the lion on the King of Sword's shield), and those 'war decks' would have necessarily addressed the situation with arch-enemy Venice. There are zero reasons as to why it would be removed when already there in the CY.

Phaeded