Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

31
The Sforza cards (PMB-1) had a Fool, a Magician, a Hanging Man, cards, which don't appear in the Cary-Yale.

Can you present a commission for cardinal virtues by Sforza? Why do you think, that Sforza took his ideas from Visconti ... Visconti was fallen under public critique after his death, the people had preferred a republic.

With security Sforza adapted "higher ideas" with the time, when he had reached security for his duchy. But in the early years of his reign ... I don't see, how you can feel sure about your theories.

Sforza had a practical orientation.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

32
Huck wrote: Can you present a commission for cardinal virtues by Sforza? Why do you think, that Sforza took his ideas from Visconti ... Visconti was fallen under public critique after his death, the people had preferred a republic.
x_x
Sforza saw himself as the rightful successor to the Visconti, not the loathed Ambrosian Republic, which he starved into submission. If anything Sforza represented a restoration of the Visconti.
The ungrateful plebs are punished because they failed to honor the deserving shade of the sublime and celebrated Duke Filippo with funeral rites….Let bold Francesco Sforza, whom our songs have often raised to the stars, look well to the interests of this man he supports. (Filelfo, Odes IV.1.30f; Robins tr. p. 223))
I can present a cardinal virtues by Sforza - the PMB, c. 1451.

Why can't you answer the question - why does Sforza ignore Fortitude in a a CY deck gifted to him when commissioning his own deck? Its utterly ridiculous to think he would have done so - right up there with thinking Sforza wanted to assuage the Republicans in Milan; this is what he gave the plebeian looters of the Visconti palaces:
Image


Practical enough for you?

Phaeded

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

33
Back on point to Marziano.

There is no connection of Marziano’s trumps to the CY trumps, besides the theory that both share 16 trumps (nevermind that there isn’t a scrap of evidence for 16 tarot trumps, anywhere) but it is demonstrable that there is connection of Marziano’s text to the court cards of the CY (whose suits were expanded to 16):
However, the order of these Birds is, although none of their type has right over another, yet this arrangement they have alternately – Eagles and Turtledoves lead from many to few: that is to say it goes better for us when many cultivate virtue and continence; but for Phoenices and Doves, the few rule over the many, which is to say that, the more the followers of riches and pleasure are visible, the more they lead to the deterioration of our station.
So we have here two suits pitted against two suits, one of which is virtuous, the other 'incontinent' (for lack of a better word, and not the bodily meaning but the secondary meaning of “lacking self-restraint; uncontrolled”).

Considering the CY is a merger of two houses – illustrated by two suits dressed in Visconti (coins and cups) and Sforza (swords and batons) imprese - we already have a replication of the generic idea of a pairing of two suits vs. two suits. But considering this is a peaceful joining, the pejorative slant on two of the suits represented by the Sforza must have been subdued. Looking at the top figureheads of each CY suit (‘ranks of kings’) I think all of this is self-evident, albeit complicated by the fact that the king of batons is missing, so I’ll be adding the queen of that suit, with the caveat the king may have been different.
Image
What jumps out are the differing gestures of the two familial suits – the Visconti kings make explicit refusal or indifferent gestures to the offered symbols of their suits; the Sforza on the other hand, already hold the symbols of their suits. Per the logic of Marziano, the Visconti kings are not “followers of riches and pleasure” in rejecting the flattering tokens of their suits, and thus virtuous. Does this also mean Sforza’s kings are incontinent? Perhaps that was a perverse interpretation known to Visconti (but per Marcello’s letter in 1448 it does not seem Sforza would have been aware of Marziano’s text in 1441), but there is a more obvious interpretation one could make in light of the totality of the trumps: Visconti is the one in the position to make a gift (the suit signs held up by the pages to the kings), as he was the one gifting the dowry of Cremona and Pontremoli. Sforza's kingly proxies are obliged to accept the gifts, as that was the contractual nature of this marriage (a dowry).

Cremona, the richer of the two cities, possessed the tallest tower in Italy and the tall tower of Judgement possibly signals that – and why is the youth out of the grave looking up at the tower instead of God? The tower was attached to the cathedral in Cremona and points heavenwards so is not without its religious connotations. Perhaps also indicated in the ‘World’ in the city closest to the kneeling woman (presumably Bianca).

Sforza’s fame was initially created by his father, and per Ianziti again, was one of the four basic tenets he used to legitimize himself as the new ruler of Milan 9 years later:
… why Milan granted the duchy to Sforza, becomes central to the arguments made by Sforza’s chancery and they are fourfold: 1. Filippo’s donation (recognized as a forgery and thus drops out altogether as a rationale); 2. the fame and glory of his house in the person of his father Muzio degli Attendoli; 3. His wife Bianca Visconti, the only issue of Filippo Visconti; 4. Sforza’s virtus (30).

I don’t think it was the first time that Muzio came in to play into Sforza’s own stratagem of declaring his own virtue, as known in 1450, as Muzio was there in 1441 in the CY as the King of Swords – Visconti, after all, had to play up the credentials of the winning suitor of his daughter. The distinctive cotogna fruit/flower is emblazoned on his chest and then there’s the oddly helmeted page before him, doing nothing but leaning forward on a stick. Muzio famously died crossing a river in full armor into which his page had fallen – diving in after the page (surely a virtuous deed) that cost Muzio his life as he drowned. The other clue besides the helmet (again, Muzio drowned because of the armor and the page was the direct 'cause') is the page’s stick – that is the well-known gesture of grieving found in Renaissance tombs, ever since the putto was reinvented in that age (see Charles Dempsey, Inventing the Renaissance Putto, 2001: 50F). No other page in the court cards makes a similar gesture – an example of the genre:
putto with inverted torch.jpg putto with inverted torch.jpg Viewed 4433 times 45.85 KiB
Finally, somewhat unrelated, I’d point out that that PMB Fool makes a very similar gesture as the Visconti king of cups, who tucks his hand into his belt, away from the offered cup. The fool has his hand in the same location but is practically nude (public hair is visible) as he indicates his “incontinence”. There’s the only demonstrable, very indirect, influence of Marziano on a trump.

Phaeded

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

34
Phaeded wrote:
Sforza saw himself as the rightful successor to the Visconti, not the loathed Ambrosian Republic, which he starved into submission. If anything Sforza represented a restoration of the Visconti.
The ungrateful plebs are punished because they failed to honor the deserving shade of the sublime and celebrated Duke Filippo with funeral rites….Let bold Francesco Sforza, whom our songs have often raised to the stars, look well to the interests of this man he supports. (Filelfo, Odes IV.1.30f; Robins tr. p. 223))
... :-) ... this is an ode, not naturally true. Likely it means, that Sforza conquered Milan ... the fact, that we know well enough.
I can present a cardinal virtues by Sforza - the PMB, c. 1451.
... you're funny.
Why can't you answer the question - why does Sforza ignore Fortitude in a a CY deck gifted to him when commissioning his own deck? Its utterly ridiculous to think he would have done so - right up there with thinking Sforza wanted to assuage the Republicans in Milan; this is what he gave the plebeian looters of the Visconti palaces:
Image


Practical enough for you?
No. I simply asked for another commission of Sforza himself for any cardinal or theological virtue, well, perhaps outside of Justice. Naturally, Milan had suffered by long wars and destructions and the plague of 1450. It was not so easy to give money for much culture. This were the practical problems till 1454, at least.
Money was spend to rebuild buildings.
In quest'anno [1451] raggiunge il suo acme l'"epidemia magna", la peste iniziata poco prima del 1450. Secondo lo storico Giovanni Simonetta, muoiono a Milano di peste circa 30.000 persone. Si utilizza come lazzaretto il castello di Cusago, raggiungibile da Milano con le barche.
Last edited by Huck on 24 Dec 2016, 11:12, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

35
Phaeded wrote,
there is no connection of Marziano’s trumps to the CY trumps, besides the theory that both share 16 trumps (nevermind that there isn’t a scrap of evidence for 16 tarot trumps, anywhere)...
I gave the evidence at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1130&start=20#p18328. It is everything before "It would be good, Phaeded...", which is where it seems that you started reading. Merely repeating your previous assertion, or previous dismissals of evidence, does not count as an argument. My main argument, which was in relation to 16 as opposed to 14 or any other number not divisible by 4, had nothing to do with any particular details on the cards (I don't mean the Petrarchan supporting argument, which does depend on details in the cards). And it is not meant to be conclusive evidence.

However your attention to the Kings is noted and valuable:
What jumps out are the differing gestures of the two familial suits – the Visconti kings make explicit refusal or indifferent gestures to the offered symbols of their suits; the Sforza on the other hand, already hold the symbols of their suits. Per the logic of Marziano, the Visconti kings are not “followers of riches and pleasure” in rejecting the flattering tokens of their suits, and thus virtuous. Does this also mean Sforza’s kings are incontinent? Perhaps that was a perverse interpretation known to Visconti (but per Marcello’s letter in 1448 it does not seem Sforza would have been aware of Marziano’s text in 1441), but there is a more obvious interpretation one could make in light of the totality of the trumps: Visconti is the one in the position to make a gift (the suit signs held up by the pages to the kings), as he was the one gifting the dowry of Cremona and Pontremoli. Sforza's kingly proxies are obliged to accept the gifts, as that was the contractual nature of this marriage (a dowry).
I would not have thought that the fact that the "Sforza" kings (and queens) hold their suit objects--sword, baton--means that they are incontinent. It means that they willingly raise virtue (in the sense of manliness) and continence high, just as the "Visconti" kings and queens reject--or perhaps take sparingly, but in any case do not embrace and identify themselves with--riches and pleasures.

I do not agree that "Sforza's kingly proxies are obliged to accept the gifts": if the suit signs represent virtue and continence, it is something they hold high with honor. Other than that, it indeed a good connection between the Marziano and the Cary-Yale, one I had not noticed. It goes beyond the mere dichotomy of "weak suits" and "strong suits", which I think was already established by then. As far as being gifts, yes, Bianca Maria is a gift of wealth and pleasure, to be taken with virtue and continence. I notice that the lower court figures are not so hesitant when it comes to pleasure and riches, perhaps a warning to the couple about their underlings.

The PMB, in contrast, has a different association for its Batons court figures. They have green gloves or sleeves. I think green was associated with fertility rather than continence. Lances were probably made of wood, and in other times this suit-sign's near relatives sprouted leaves. The lady on the PMB Love and Chariot card has such green, too, and by then Bianca had been fertile indeed.

I do not know whether the quince on the King of Swords' breast means Muzio in particular or not. It would be natural for a sword-bearer to be in armor. It is odd that the page only has a stick, rather than another sword, as in the case of the maid of the Queen of Swords (http://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3432569). But your putto is leaning on a torch, in the pose from Mithraism of the setting sun. It is a sign of mourning, but that does not make any varlet leaning on a stick such a sign. Do you have any putti leaning on sticks that aren't torches? If your interpretation is right, it was certainly thoughtful on Filippo's part.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

36
mikeh wrote: [Re. Marziano and 16 trumps in the CY] My main argument, which was in relation to 16 as opposed to 14 or any other number not divisible by 4, had nothing to do with any particular details on the cards (I don't mean the Petrarchan supporting argument, which does depend on details in the cards). And it is not meant to be conclusive evidence.
That proposed suit-impulse, which would hardly be unique to the Marziano deck, simply isn't verified by any known tarot deck. The number 14 does appear in Ferrara, only 3 months after Giusti's entry for trionfi and 10 months before a likely dating of the CY, in the same context of the CY: Bianca Visconti. Still waiting for someone to propose anything for what those 14 subjects supposedly were if not tarot. 14 is also implied in the 70 card tarot deck of 1457. That's two pieces of suggestive evidence for 14 trump tarot trumps, zero for 16. 'Tarot-like' isn't tarot. I'm not denying some influence of the Marziano deck and indeed see that in the number of court cards (which again, do not need to match the number of trump cards). [And I will continue to ignore the "Beinecke trump to suit assignments as genuine" unless a 15th century source can be dredged up. I could care less what a librarian at Yale or the NYC Public Library mused, without compelling evidence]
mikeh wrote: I do not know whether the quince on the King of Swords' breast means Muzio in particular or not. It would be natural for a sword-bearer to be in armor. It is odd that the page only has a stick, rather than another sword, as in the case of the maid of the Queen of Swords (http://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3432569). But your putto is leaning on a torch, in the pose from Mithraism of the setting sun. It is a sign of mourning, but that does not make any varlet leaning on a stick such a sign. Do you have any putti leaning on sticks that aren't torches? If your interpretation is right, it was certainly thoughtful on Filippo's part.
Certainly the young page is in no need of a walking stick (and the stick cannot be said to be a sword by any leap of the imagination in terms of this deck full of swords) and thus I think we are on fairly safe footing in seeing the gesture of a downward pointing "stick" as related to the inverted torch symbolism. Strictly speaking, the perfect match for the "stick" within the CY is a scepter, as held by the Emperor or even the King of Cups that I posted above. The meaning then would be 'Muzio no longer rules' (lives) such as we find in the Wheel of Fortune trump, and indeed the contemporary Brambilla Wheel of Fortune's ruling top figure holds such a scepter:
Image


Its also why I think there are clear implications of succession for the aging and unfit Filippo (dead 6 years later) in the CY and why the flag of Pavia is shown in the Love card (Filippo was first the young Count of Pavia before becoming duke and what Sforza made himself in 1448 before becoming Duke of Milan). [and can we please put to bed the Savoy flag theory - if it were for the marriage of a person of Savoy then half of the suits would be Savoy, not divided between Sforza and Visconti).

Equally important as the stick attribute is the unique fact that only this page (or any person) in the CY wears a helmet - and again, a page was the direct result of why Muzio no longer rules/lives. He drowned in his armor trying to save his page. I can't even fathom any alternate reading for this court card's unique attributes, in light of half of the court cards are for Sforza.

The need to convey Sforza's qualifications in 1441 was no less acute than in c. 1450 - and Pisanello's medal from the same time as the CY testifies to that need and the tangible efforts made in that direction. Muzio was a respected person in the employ of not only dukes but queens (of Naples) and was the only notable lineage Sforza was entitled to (otherwise he was from peasant stock) - it made perfect sense for a nod in that direction.

Phaeded