Well, it's better to get the facts first.

mikeh wrote: I don't understand your point. The threefold Tiara was a later papal fashion, not an earlier.

Nicholas II, bishop of Florence 1048 - 1061, pope since 1058. Worked as pope in Florence and was buried there in Santa Reparata (his own church), a very old place since Roman times, on which some time later Santa Maria del Fiori was started and finished in 1436, also known as the dome of Florence. In 1055 a council took place in Florence (when Nikolaus II. still was bishop), and Florence got cause this event in the following decades various new buildings and developed.

Reasons to remember Nicholas II. just in the time of the Charles VI. Tarocchi (after 1450):
Brunellischi had finished the dome of Florence short before (1436), the council took place there (1439; it surely remembered the earlier council of 1055) and in the time 1447 - 1455 a Pope was chosen with the name Nicholas V., a man, who has spend part of his of his youth in Florence (? perhaps he did decide for the name Nicholas cause the older Nicholas II. ?).

Huck wrote,

Extreme blond, extreme curls. The time is interesting: I saw datings between 1462-1480. Possibly a fashion around this time.

Assuming that this picture is 1462 or so, that doesn't suggest anything about the Charles VI, etc., even as a reasonable possibility. You would have to provide a preponderence of comparable paintings of an earlier time that do not have blond hair and curls where they would be expected to be. You would have to look, for example, at the Cary-Yale cards for example (early 1440s, presumably). Have a look. Plenty of blonds, exactly like in the Florentine cards. Northern Italy had been conquered by Germanic tribes in which blond was more prevalent than in the native stock, especially slaves become serfs, who were drawn from conquered nations of mostly darker hue (Africa and Asia, despite the depictions of blond and blue eyed Jesuses). So blond was the preferred hair color of the ruling class. as well as being considered more beautiful. In the Lo Scheggia birth tray, for example, there is one dark-skinned person, hence a slave or captive.

mikeh wrote:Huck wrote,

Well, it's better to get the facts first.

Well, yes, I was disappointed that Maggio didn't have more. But perhaps there are no more "facts" about what is on the paper along with the dates.

When we don't have the facts, we have to speculate, but not just wildly, but with probabilities, based on various conditions known and assumed. In dealing with the dating of cards, that is inevitable. We can get "no earlier than"'s sometimes, or, less frequently, "no later than"'s. In this case, no earlier than 1428. Beyond that, it is probabilities. I would guess that with Notorial Acts, that between 1428 and 1448 is more likely than between 1448 and 1468. Notorial Acts tend to be humdrum, and if not, then not recycled at all. That is my guess; but I would like to know more about the cards found in Ronciglione dated by "juridical papers". From what I see at http://askalexander.org/display/23121/T ... onciglione, the proofsheets were in the binding of books of certain dates. That is a different kind of case, and it seemed to be reliable. Was there a problem?

I picked Lo Scheggia rather than Apollonio because Apollonio is younger and so more likely to re-use something from an older peer. It is the same between Scheggia and Dal Ponte. The Apollonio illumination that is like the Stag Rider in "pectorals" (Maggio's term) in a c. 1450 Virgil; then probably the Lo Scheggia cassone lid is before then, the younger borrowing from the older. If Alessandro Sforza is being depicted as a young King of Diamonds, then late 1430s, after a famous victory, is more likely than late 1460s, at the end of his career winning stalemates. But nothing is certain. Even in the case of the Rosenwald sheet that Franco dated, it is an assumption that the sheets the proof-sheet is between means that they were done around the same time. Maybe the person who saved them had a different reason for putting the pages there. Maybe he or she simply used the book-pages as a means of protecting the proof-sheet from accidental damage, and they are there just because they were ready to hand, in some later century. That seems less likely to me, however, than the other assumption.

A questo punto fu formata una lega contro il Fortebraccio al comando di Francesco Sforza. Il 15 agosto 1435 Niccolò sconfisse e fece prigioniero Leone Sforza, ma il 23 agosto Alessandro Sforza lo sconfisse nell'assedio di Fiordimonte, presso Camerino. Mentre fuggiva con i suoi uomini, nel tentativo di saltare un fossato rimase ferito e bloccato sotto il peso del cavallo. Qui fu ferito a morte da Cristoforo di Forlì e spirò dopo due ore, senza proferir parola.

July 1435:
With the collaboration of Corrado Trinci and Francesco Piccinino (700 horsepower) covering sixty miles quickly, attacking suddenly Leone Sforza and does a prisoner in Montefalco with all his troops (300 horsepower and 200 foot soldiers) while playing chess.
August 1435
Besieges the fortress of Montefalco; defenders surrender to terms; against every promise is beheaded Francuzzo from San Severino who had taken refuge: according to other sources Niccolo Fortebraccio grants the commander opponent a safe conduct, except to attack him and kill him at a later ambush. You wait, then, on the Chienti Beldiletto, it starts against Camerino controlled by Francesco Sforza. Storm the castle of Prefoglio (sacked) and the Apennines after a short bombardment; it leads to Serravalle di Chienti with 1,000 horsepower and 500 foot soldiers to rescue the prey; moves all 'siege of Fiordimonte in the valley of Sant'Angelo di Camerino. At the end of the month it will be addressed by Taliano Furlano, by Taddeo d'Este, by Cristoforo da Tolentino, by Guidantonio Manfredi, from Manno Barile, from Gattamelata, by Brandolini Brandolini and Alessandro Sforza. His troops take flight after a brief confrontation; Niccolo Fortebraccio falls from his horse in jumping a ditch and the enemies are upon him. Pretending to surrender and earns time to pull out the sword; the contrasts Cristoforo da Forli wounding him mortally. The latter stands still and does not allow anyone to lend him aid; the Fortescue dies after two hours without a word. It is said that his body was torn to pieces by Perugia leaked and that it was put in a sack. E 'it buried in Assisi. Remembered by Lorenzo Spirito in "Lamento di Perugia subjugated". Portrait of Bramantino.

All frescoes in the palace, except those of the chapel, were commissioned by Ugolino III Trinci, who died in 1415. Their execution started probably in 1407. The concept of these fresco cycles probably came from Francesco Federico Frezzi, the bishop of Foligno and author of the Quadriregio, a poem of the four kingdoms Love, Satan, the Vices, and the Virtues. Some of these frescoes were painted between 1411 and 1412 by Gentile da Fabriano, with the assistance of Jacopo Bellini. The designs were by Gentile da Fabriano, but their painting was almost completely done by pupils. The authorship of the frescoes was attested by Lodovico Coltellini, a scholar who saw in 1780 two receipts to Ugolino Trinci by Gentile da Fabriano for painting the halls. Some of the frescoes in the palace depicting secular subjects are attributed to Giovanni di Corraduccio

The loggia is decorated with frescoes describing the legend of the "Founding of Rome". These frescoes are already mentioned in documents dating from 1405. They depict The Vestal Virgin Rhea Silvia who gives in to the love of the god Mars, birth of Romulus and Remus, Faustulus brings the twins to his wife Acca Larentia, Rhea Silvia, the siege of Alba Longa, the twins and the king Amulius. Each episode is explained below by verses in Italian. Through these frescoes, the Trinci family tried to provide an acceptable lineage of their ancestors to the founders of Rome. The painter of these frescoes is anonymous.
..

The small chapel is entirely decorated with frescoes by Ottaviano Nelli (1421- February 1424), describing in sixteen scenes the life of the Virgin : Anna and Joachim in the Temple, annunciation to Joachim and Anna, meeting at the Porta Aurea, birth of Mary, marriage to Joseph, Annunciation, Nativity, Adoration of the Magi, presentation of Jesus in the Temple, announcement of the death of Mary, arrival of the apostles, death of Mary, funeral and Assumption. The fresco of the Crucifixion above the altar shows also the archbishop Jacobus de Voragine with his book the Golden Legend in his hand. This fresco is flanked by frescoes of three saints (one of them is the blessed Paoluccio Trinci, who died in September 1390) and St. Francis, receiving the Stigmata. Many of these palace chapels were dedicated to Mary in the 13th to the 15th centuries. These frescoes were commissioned by Corrado III Trinci who resumed the policy of his father as a patron of the Arts. These religious frescoes are a rare set that show at the same time a humanistic and profane iconography.

Golden Legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Legend .... "The Golden Legend (Latin: Legenda aurea or Legenda sanctorum) is a collection of hagiographies by Jacobus de Voragine that became a late medieval bestseller. More than a thousand manuscripts of the text have survived."

The Hall of Liberal Arts and of the Planets (or Hall of Stars) takes its name because its frescoes represent the Liberal Arts : the Trivium (grammar, rhetoric, logic and philosophy) and the Quadrivium (music, geometry, astronomy, and arithmetics) and the planets: (Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn and the Sun - the latter two are missing) The other side of the room shows the different Ages of Man (infancy, childhood, adolescence, youth, adulthood, deterioration, old age, decrepitude) and the Hours of the Day. The former name of the room was "Chamber of the Rose", probably because of the presence of roses, emblem of Trinci family, in its decorative top. The hall represents iconographically the best of medieval culture. There are seven planets, as there are seven ages of man, each under the influence of a planet. This influence of the planets is stronger in certain times of day, as man learns in each age another discipline. The provision of the planetary system does not conform to the actual position of planets in the heavens, but follows a chronological trend that relates to the day of the week.

...
The walls of the corridor, linking the palace with the cathedral of San Feliciano, is frescoed with the Heroes of Ancient Times (Ciclo dei Prodi). These frescoes represent heroes from Roman times (Romulus, Scipio Africanus) and nine heroes from French medieval tradition, the Nine Worthies. These came from Jewish history (Joshua, King David and Judas Maccabeus), pagan history (Hector (lost), Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great) and Christian history (King Arthur, Charlemagne and Godfrey of Bouillon, the last two are lost) ... [my comment: so actually 11 persons once]

n 1435, at Fiordimonte, he won the battle in which the riotous Niccolò Fortebraccio was killed.

Alessandro collaborated actively with his brother Francesco in his military campaign, and with him he conquered Milan, Alessandria and Pesaro. In 1435, at Fiordimonte, he won the battle in which the riotous Niccolò Fortebraccio was killed. In 1445 at Assisi he commanded the troops besieged by Pope Eugene IV's condottiero Niccolò Piccinino. He was forced to leave the city, abandoning the city to ravages and massacres. In 1444 he obtained the lordship of Pesaro by Galeazzo Malatesta. Here he enlarged the Ducal Palace to conform it to the Renaissance standards.

During the Wars in Lombardy in support of Francesco he presided Parma and, in February 1446, he proclaimed himself lord of the city. After Francesco's conquest of the Duchy of Milan, the Peace of Lodi (1454) confirmed him in Parma.

In 1464 he obtained by Pope Pius II the seigniory of Gradara, which he defended by the Malatesta attempts of reconquest.

He died in 1473[1] from an attack of apoplexy[citation needed]. His son Costanzo succeeded him in Pesaro.

Well, but it existed in pope Eugen's time.

In the late years the good relations between Eugen and Florence had split, so maybe there are doubts about the identification.

mikeh wrote:For Alessandro Sforza, I was going by English Wikipedia:

n 1435, at Fiordimonte, he won the battle in which the riotous Niccolò Fortebraccio was killed.

Is this false?

Here is the whole account of his battles on English Wikipedia: ....

Alessandro collaborated actively with his brother Francesco in his military campaign, and with him he conquered Milan, Alessandria and Pesaro. In 1435, at Fiordimonte, he won the battle in which the riotous Niccolò Fortebraccio was killed. In 1445 at Assisi he commanded the troops besieged by Pope Eugene IV's condottiero Niccolò Piccinino. He was forced to leave the city, abandoning the city to ravages and massacres. In 1444 he obtained the lordship of Pesaro by Galeazzo Malatesta. Here he enlarged the Ducal Palace to conform it to the Renaissance standards.

During the Wars in Lombardy in support of Francesco he presided Parma and, in February 1446, he proclaimed himself lord of the city. After Francesco's conquest of the Duchy of Milan, the Peace of Lodi (1454) confirmed him in Parma.

In 1464 he obtained by Pope Pius II the seigniory of Gradara, which he defended by the Malatesta attempts of reconquest.

He died in 1473[1] from an attack of apoplexy[citation needed]. His son Costanzo succeeded him in Pesaro.

Thanks for clarifying the point about book bindings in relation to the material inside them. I would guess that the book bindings would have been done shortly after the printing, which would be shortly after the text was written. So most likely the first (the material used for binding) would be from around the time of the first, although yes, it could be different. It is only probabilities that I am concerned about.

I actually went to the Trinci Palace once, around 15 years ago. I wanted to see how the 7 Ages were portrayed, as I couldn't find anything out about them then. It was not all that impressive then. Perhaps more has been restored since.

From that, what I've read there and elsewhere, I would hesitate to recognize Alessandro Sforza at this early opportunity as a "big condottieri star". The "system Sforza" had it been, that there was a big family which Francesco could delegate and the members (one can persecute them with the condottieri site) mostly were rather reliable. He naturally got much profile, when he got Pesaro later. If you would ask me, what has been his best job as a condottiero, I would point to the battle of Troia in early 1460s.

Huck wrote: Only the triumphator of the chariot has black hairs and the two cardinals:

The color of the hairs doesn't seem to be accidental

The Chariot, for the first time I believe, shows an armored male instead of a chaste woman. Why? Below is an almost exact image of the figure on the CVI chariot (down to even the red beretta on the head). I’ll have to go through my notes and find the source that gave the estimated year of production, but I’m fairly positive that it's Dati, La sfera, Florence, Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana, ms. Med. Pal. 89, c.3.is from ca. 1460-1480 and definitely depicts Mars from an allegorical planetary sequence (one scholar says the artist was Apollonio di Giovanni). Therefore the chariot likely shows a leader dressed for a bellicose endeavour: Florence rallying around Lorenzo Medici against Sixtus IV (keep in mind effigies of Lorenzo were made at this time for the people to rally around).