SteveM wrote:And I see no new theme of 'women are better than men'.The theme is that of the typical Petrarchian women (women as models of virtue), and not original with Petrarch, but as old as chivalry romances at least. It is a theme to be found in common educational treatise of the time and much earlier. The Gundersheimer argument isn't worth a pot of piss, providing no confirmation at all -- as your major confirmation, its just a kettle of fish, and stinky ones at that.
And the theme of 'women are better than men' is older anyway, we have had this discussion before - but it is irrelevant, as that isn't the theme, it is the common Petrarchian women as models of virtue (a misnomer, to the extent such is older than Petrarch). A point I made near the beginning of this thread, rejecting this as one of the arguments I recalled you had previously made.
Well, Gundersheimer made this argument, as far I know, not reflecting the Boiardo poem. He sees a concrete change in the contemporary literature, and he points to the year 1487.
As I said, I cannot judge the value of the opinion of Gundersheimer. I'm not very competent in this theme.
His major article to it seems to be this:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2861116?se ... b_contents
(1980), 25 pages
The article influenced other writers, the unknown Gobbio suddenly became interesting. It's easy to find these replies with "Gundersheimer Goggio" ...
https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q= ... r%20goggio
... and its likely not a surprise, that one finds female authors.
In Isabella d'Este we find a dominant woman of the early half of 16th century, who was educated at this Ferrarese court, then (1487) just in the right age to take up new influences (and promising the future, which can show, what such new education would be worth later; well, we know her future, and can make the conclusion, that she was a "new type of a woman"). You cannot discuss this away. She was not like Parisina, another great lady at this court, in her fate. There are differences in the general social behavior between 1425 and 1508, when Isabella started to manage the war congresses. A development took place and it has some logic, that it had steps of development, which can be recognized by literary studies. ... .-) surely a lot of piss pots were filled in this time, but I don't think, that this makes a good counter argument.
I personally only analyzed the structural elements of the poem. There are "keywords" (the beginning words) and there are major persons. Although Dummett's list wasn't known to us in 2003, the Trionfi.com research came to the same row of "major persons" and the same distribution of gender (1-3-5-7-9-11-13-15-17-19 versus the other half) in the 20 centered tercets.
When 2 persons see the same thing, one generally may regard it as some degree of objectivity.
The "keywords" presents qualities and at least some are clearly "good" and some are clearly "bad". When all the keywords, which are clearly recognizable as "good" gather at the "even" (female) numbers and all the "really bad" gather at the "odd" (male) side, the interpretation of the poem shouldn't miss that, otherwise it wouldn't be an interpretation or the researcher is just a little bit blind or has it eyes elsewhere and just another focus.
At least it should be respected, that the probability is high, that Boiardo presented the odd numbers as connected to bad qualities and the even numbers to good qualities, with some automatic generation of female virtues and male vices (or stupidities). Boiardo's values are from 15th century and not naturally the same as modern values, Lucrezia's self-killing may look strange to us as a virtue, but one has to respect, that it was another time.
With the pair "Time" (bad, odd side) and "Oblivion" (good, even side) I have my problems, but from a "female 15th century perspective" Oblivion might be a good value. The general mother role demands, that bad experiences are forgotten in the life of their children ... well, love makes this. The strong time-counting of the men is brutal, wants to know the true action. ... .-) ... Tarot historians are often male, Tarot diviners are a more female community. And "Father Time" is old and male, and "Fortune" is younger and female.
We don't have 100s of Tarocchi poems of a comparable length, we have just this Boiardo poem from 15th century. And it's crucial for the overall context, cause it is the first evidence for the 4x14+22 game structure. So that, what is really interesting, is the date.
If you indeed could offer a better date than 1487 with some content and really good arguments, please do.
We have for the 1480s the 3 pictures of Ercole de Roberti .. 3 women in calamities, between them the Roman Lucretia. He also spend some time in Bologna, which isn't far from Ferrara, and had commissions, this all likely in the context of the later or earlier marriage of Lucretia to Annibale. The other both motifs are "Portia and Brutus" and "Hasdrubal Barca's wife with sons". Sophonisba, daughter of Hasdrubal Barca, was part of the program of the Boiardo Tarocchi poem.
The early Boiardo in the 1460s wouldn't have had this pictures in his surrounding and he wouldn't have had translated the Apuleius. A lot of the scenes in the Orlando play in Africa, I've read.
I've no ideas, how much attention the poems of the very young Boiardo have gotten in the book printing production of the early 16th century. Do you know something about this?
I didn't note, that anybody of the poetry specialists pointed to the observation of the odd and even pairs in the Boiardo poem. And that anybody stated, that the keywords might have been arranged in opposition pairs. And that they possibly present a sort of philosophical system.
The truth is, that the Boiardo poem hadn't gotten much attention, at least in the state of 2003.