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Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 16 Jul 2020, 16:34
by Huck
Noord-Brabandsche volks-almanak, Band 2, by Muller (1844)
inside is:
Iets over het kaartspel, by Dr. G.D.L. Schotel, p. 77-92

I had searched for this text earlier
https://books.google.de/books?redir_esc ... el&f=false

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Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 17 Jul 2020, 09:25
by Huck
The author Hennie Verhoef has published in 2016 a work about the "Graven of Blois".
https://docplayer.nl/32268325-Heren-van ... rhoef.html

He has arranged a genealogical table, by which one can see the relationship between Albrecht of Bavaria and Jan van Blois. They had the same great grandparents in one genealogical line.
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Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 17 Jul 2020, 10:47
by Huck
Schotel in his text of 1844 (Almanac) .... viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1103&start=30#p22423 .... variously quoted this text:

Natuurlyke historie van Holland, Band 6
Joannes Francq van Berkhey
by Yntema en Tieboel, 1769
... probably mostly this one .... p. 1413-1460
https://books.google.de/books?id=l3FXAA ... &q&f=false

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... a longer text, in which also playing cards are mentioned

Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 19:06
by Huck
https://perspectivia.net/rsc/viewer/plo ... 97&q=Spiel
Seite 296-299
in
Werner Paravicini
Die Preußenreisen des europäischen Adels / Teil 1, published 1989 (Beihefte der Francia, 17/1), Sigmaringen (Thorbecke)

The quote is at p. 299
Der Graf von Ostrevent ließ am 27. Januar 1387 einen »Tisch, darauf in meines Herren Kammer zu würfel« kaufen. Es begegnen auch andere Spiele als Würfeln und »Kaisermarkt«: Johann von Blois erwarb im Februar/März 1363 in Königsberg für 30 s . ein »beinernes« Schachspiel, und verlor am 3. Mai 1363 beim cortspele gegen den Vicomte de Beaumont 13 1/2 Ellen Seidenlakens im Wert von 13 1/2 preuß. Mark. Im übrigen ließ Johann von Blois seine Spielschulden pünktlich vor der Abreise aus Königsberg begleichen.
Automatic translation
On January 27, 1387, the Count of Ostrevent had a "table to be diced on in my master's chamber." There are also other games than dice and the "Imperial Market": Johann von Blois bought it in Koenigsberg in February / March 1363 for 30 s. a "bone" game of chess, and lost on May 3, 1363 at the cortspele against the Viscount de Beaumont in 13 1/2 Ellen silk sheets worth 13 1/2 prussian Mark. Incidentally, Johann von Blois had his gambling debts settled punctually before leaving Königsberg.

I'm personally not sure, that "cortspele" in the text means "Kartenspiel".

Added later:
Louis II de Brienne, Vicomte de Beaumont was the son of Jean II, Vicomte de Beaumont and Marguerite de Poitiers.1 He married Isabelle de Bourbon-La Marche, daughter of Jacques I de Bourbon-La Marche, Comte de la Marche et Ponthieu and Jeanne de Châtillon, on 13 November 1363.1,2 He died on 6 May 1364 at Cocherel, FranceG, killed in action, without issue.1
He gained the title of Vicomte de Beaumont.1 He fought in the Battle of Cocherel on 6 May 1364.1
Citations
[S8] BP1999 volume 1, page 227. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [S8]
[S8569] Ranulph Fiennes, Agincourt, My family, the battle and the fight for France (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 2014). Hereinafter cited as Agincourt.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p12016.htm#i120155

He died at the battle of Cocherel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cocherel

This Vicomte de Beaumont might be the person, with whom Jan van Blois played "cortspele".

Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 15 Nov 2021, 09:43
by Huck
[in work]

Also at p. 299 from the same source ...
https://perspectivia.net/rsc/viewer/plo ... 97&q=Spiel
Item des selben Tags Herren Geld von Florenville wiedergegeben, die er meinem Herrn geliehen hatte und mein Herr verloren hatte mit keysermarct, 6 böhmische Groschen, valent .... 6 gr. 2 ester.
Translation:
"Item at the same day given to Mr. Gerd von Florenville, which he had lent to my master and which my master had lost with keysermarct, 6 Bohemian groschen etc."
"keysermarct" is in this context expected to be the name of a game. Mr Gerd von Florenville (Florenville is a location at the French/Belgian border nowadays) gets money back, which he had given to the "Graf of Holland" and the Graf apparently lost money during playing "keysermarct", which means translated "imperial market" or "Emperor market".
For the current moment I don't know an old game with the name "Kaisermarkt" or similar. In the world of early playing cards we know expressions like "Kaiserspiel" or "Imperatori cards".

I found a similar text in this text at page 177.
https://archive.org/details/derekeninge ... 6/mode/2up

This is the Dutch original ...
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The text appears in this context.
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De Rekeningen der Grafelijkheid van Holland (3rd part), 1878
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The "Graf von Holland" is this man: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_IV._(Holland) ... he died in 1345, short after the the document with Keysermarct (Wednesday, 4th of February 1344).
.... his sister had married the emperor Ludwig the Bayer: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarethe_I._(Holland)
... his widow Johanna von Brabant ... : https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_(Brabant)
... married later Wencelas, half brother of Emperor Charles IV.: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzel_I._(Luxemburg)

From Wencelas we definitely know, that he knew playing cards in 1379 ... he ordered the production of cards
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&p=13147&hilit= ... 379#p13147

From Empress Margarethe we know, that her son Albrecht or Albert was 9 years old in 1446, when he accompanied his mother to Holland) ...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_I._(Bayern)
About the later Albrecht in 1378 we definitely know, that he also had contacts to playing cards ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=761&p=10875&hilit= ... ten#p10875
About the younger Albrecht in 1362 or 1463 we have found Dutch reports (in this thread), that he played cards with Jan van Blois long before the card prohibition of Berne in 1367, but these stories are in the moment not fully accepted.
About the very young Abrecht we know, that he married a girl from Brieg ("1353 heiratete er Margarete von Liegnitz-Brieg († 1386), eine Tochter des Herzogs Ludwig I. von Liegnitz und Urenkelin des böhmischen Königs Wenzel II." ... is written in German wiki) and from Brieg we know the story, that a ligthning struck in a Haus am Ringe and 3 card players were dead in 1303.
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Which is a story, that is also difficult to believe.

For the terminus "keysermarct" we have the following ....

https://books.google.de/books?id=gM5x0y ... kt&f=false
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"Keysermarkt" once was used as a city name with some competion with the Käsemarkt (cheese market) . The city is still in existence and the modern name is ...
Kežmarok
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kežmarok
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kežmarok
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/''/060+ ... 646501!3e2
Kežmarok is in a valley with a river (heigth 630 meters) about 20 km East of Gerlachovský štít, which is a mountain of 2654 meters. This mountain once had been the highest mountain of Poland, once of Hungary and today of Slowakia, it is in its region a true emperor ... which might have associated the name Keysermarct for the near city Kežmarok

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I found
A Dutch playing card research text of 1853 with no clear author ... at page 71-76
http://www.heraldry-wiki.com/arms/liter ... 3_1853.PDF

Jan van Blois 1362 / Preußenreisen by Werner Paravicini

Posted: 26 Nov 2021, 08:24
by Huck
Paravicini, W., 1989. Die Preußenreisen des europäischen Adels: Teil 1 (1989)
Beihefte der Francia: Forschungen zur westeuropäischen Geschichte. Thorbecke, Sigmaringen.
https://perspectivia.net/rsc/viewer/plo ... =2&q=Spiel
I found the 2nd part of this excellent text.

WERNER PARAVICINI
DIE PREUSSENREISEN DES EUROPÄISCHEN ADELS / Teil 2 (1995)
Jan Thorbecke Verlag GmbH & Co., Karlstraße 10, D-72488 Sigmaringen
http://prussia.online/Data/Book/di/die- ... %20OCR.pdf

Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 10:23
by Huck
Recently I wrote at ....
viewtopic.php?p=24380#p24380
Der Graf von Ostrevent ließ am 27. Januar 1387 einen »Tisch, darauf in meines Herren Kammer zu würfel« kaufen. Es begegnen auch andere Spiele als Würfeln und »Kaisermarkt«: Johann von Blois erwarb im Februar/März 1363 in Königsberg für 30 s . ein »beinernes« Schachspiel, und verlor am 3. Mai 1363 beim cortspele gegen den Vicomte de Beaumont 13 1/2 Ellen Seidenlakens im Wert von 13 1/2 preuß. Mark. Im übrigen ließ Johann von Blois seine Spielschulden pünktlich vor der Abreise aus Königsberg begleichen.
Automatic translation
On January 27, 1387, the Count of Ostrevent had a "table to be diced on in my master's chamber." There are also other games than dice and the "Imperial Market": Johann von Blois bought it in Koenigsberg in February / March 1363 for 30 s. a "bone" game of chess, and lost on May 3, 1363 at the cortspele against the Viscount de Beaumont in 13 1/2 Ellen silk sheets worth 13 1/2 prussian Mark. Incidentally, Johann von Blois had his gambling debts settled punctually before leaving Königsberg.

I'm personally not sure, that "cortspele" in the text means "Kartenspiel".
I found a similar case at ....
Das Ritter-Wesen und die Templer, Johanniter und Marianer oder Deutsch-Ordens-Ritter. Dritter und letzter Band, Band 14
Hallberg, 1837 / Page 24
https://books.google.de/books?id=sOBlAA ... navlinks_s
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The author assumes, that playing cards were not very old. He stumbles with reading difficulties about a word "cattspiel" or "caffspiel", which he explains with doubts as some doubts as spear throwing tournament (cattspiel) or as a funny theatre play (caffspiel).









catte

Re: Jan van Blois 1362 (incl. Pratesi article) ; theme -1377

Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 10:33
by Huck
IN WORK

DE NAVORSCHER by FREDERIK MULLER, Band 2 ... year 1852
https://books.google.nl/books?id=aZMFAA ... el&f=false
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De Navorscher: Nederlands archief voor genealogie en heraldiek, heemkunde en geschiedenis, Band 3 .... year 1853
https://books.google.de/books?id=kI1EAA ... el&f=false
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Page 72 (author: Henry, Invention des Cartes a jouer en Chine) includes a link to the Magasin pittoresques 1850, p. 106 ...
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k31433w/f110.item

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The Bijblad page Ixxvii gives the name Strutt:

The Sports and Pastimes of the People of England: Including the Rural and Domestic Recreations, May Games, Mummeries, Shows, Processions, Pageants, and Pompous Spectacles, from the Earliest Period to the Present Time
by Joseph Strutt
Thomas Tegg, 1838 - 420 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=MBkLAAAAIAAJ

The playing cards part is at the pages 323-336.

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Les curieuses origines des inventions et découvertes
Ernest Soulange
A. Mame, 1848 - 260 Seiten / "Cartes a jouer" at pages 48-55
https://books.google.at/books?id=DoAoAQ ... &q&f=false