Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#441
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:NHe likes Shephard's idea that the subject of a card can be identified by what is shown on top. So for example when there are gravestones on the bottom and a sun at the top, the subject is the Sun. The idea also fits with the principle of "immediate recognition" for the players" [/i]

http://dummettsmondo.blogspot.fr/


NB ; In this case, the anchor above in the "Pope" Goldschmidt could be :
- either a reference to Saint Clement (Steve's finding)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=40#p17908
- euther a reference to Hope /Despair (Mikeh's link to the CY Hope card)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=50#p17923
In this case the waterwheel on the Falconer page card would be the primary subject? But the other two cards don't appear to give any prominence to anything at the top, so not sure such a principle was applied with these cards.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#442
Yes from my point of view, yes
Wheel of Fortuna?

The principle of recognition by those who viewed tha cards may well not be resumed to only what is above or unerderneath for sure - in this case, what they refered to was understandable immediatly nevertheless.
But for us , so far away from an unknown hypothetical historical context,it's far from being evident.
Morever we have only a few remaining cards - the "lost" ones likely would have given more comprehension ...
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#443
SteveM wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: NB ; In this case, the anchor above in the "Pope" Goldschmidt could be :
- either a reference to Saint Clement (Steve's finding)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=40#p17908
- euther a reference to Hope /Despair (Mikeh's link to the CY Hope card)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=50#p17923
In reference to allegorical depictions, lady with castle was also a version of Temperance.
Temperance with castle, Hope with anchor:

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#445
What can be said, with a correct plausibility, is that these two supposed Virtues (Hope with anchor and Temperance with castle ) on the Goldschmidt cards (Pope with anchor and lady with castle) are in adequation with the medieval reprentation allegories of virtues and vices : Allegory of Virtues and Vices c.1355 by Nicolas de Bologna in a manuscript in the Ambrosian Library, Milan.
This correlation would raise the Lady with castle to a statut of Triomphe and not a court card.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#446
I thought I was done with Alain's "Tarot Arithmologique", but now I have read Andrea Vitali's essay, "San Taroco" (in Italian only) and can see a possible link. It describes a Christian martyr dubbed "Saint Taraco" or "Tharaco", whose alleged skull showed up in Modena some time during or after the Crusades. Andrea writes:
Ciò che rimase dei corpi dei tre santi, in forma di reliquie, prese diverse destinazioni. Nel medioevo il cranio di Taraco giunse a Modena, così come riportato nel volume Il Duomo ossia cenni storici e descrittivi della Cattedrale di Modena, pubblicato nel 1845: “Le sacre Reliquie de’ nostri santi Martiri ebbero culto speciale in Anazarbo di Cilicia, e poscia in altre parti d’oriente ove furono in parte trasferite. Una delle più insigni fra esse si è quella, che si conserva e venera nella nostra Chiesa Cattedrale, cioè dire il cranio della testa di S. Taraco. Non si ha memoria accertata del come e quando ci venisse d’oriente sì prezioso e venerabile pegno; forse fu trasportato in Italia al tempo delle Crociate: il certo si è, che veneravasi in Modena fino dal secolo XIV, poiché il bel Reliquiario, che lo sostiene, fu fatto fare dal Vescovo di Modena Aldobrandino d’Este, che resse la nostra Chiesa dall’anno 1352 al 1373. Il santo Cranio è scoperto soltanto nella sommità, per darlo a baciare ai divoti fedeli in quella parte ove sofferse il più atroce tormento; poiché, dopo scorticatagli la testa, ci misero sopra bragie ardenti; ed in riguardo a quell’atroce martoro il Santo si venera qual Tutelare sopra il dolore di capo. Quel Reliquiario è d’argento dorato, e consiste di un piede esagono, che sostiene un tondino sul quale posa il sacro Cranio. Intorno al detto tondino ricorre un cerchio a foggia di corona, coperto di smalto azzurro, con la seguente scritta in così dette lettere gotiche divisa in otto spartimenti:

HOC - OS - || EST - CAPI || TIS - SANTI (sic) || THARACHI - || MILITIS - E || T - MARTYRI || S

HOC OPVS FECIT FERI (sic) ALDROVANDIN ESTENSIS EPISCOP’ MUTINEÑ

Questo cranio è la testa di Santo Taraco, milite e martire.

Quest'opera (il reliquario) si deve ad Aldobrandino d'Este vescovo modenese (Nostra traduzione)

(What remained of the bodies of the three saints, in the form of relics, took different destinations. In the Middle Ages the skull of Taraco arrived in Modena, as reported in the book The Cathedral, which is an historical and descriptive outline of the Cathedral of Modena, published in 1845: "The sacred relics of our holy martyrs had special worship in Anazarbo of Cilicia, and afterwards in other parts of the East where they were partly transferred. One of the most prominent among them was the one preserved and venerated in our Cathedral Church, that is to say the skull of the head of St. Taraco. We have not ascertained the memory as to and when there came from the East so precious and venerable a pledge; perhaps it was transported to Italy at the time of the Crusades: the outcome is, that it was venerated in Modena by the fourteenth century, since the beautiful Reliquary that supports it, was made for the Bishop of Modena Aldobrandino d'Este, who kept our Church from the year 1352 to 1373. The saint's skull only uncovered on top, for the devout faithful to give a kiss on that part where he suffered the most excruciating torment; because after flaying his head, they put over it hot [i[bragie[/i] [spits?]; and in regard to that atrocious martyrdom the Saint is venerated for protecting against headache. The Reliquary is silver-gilt, and consists of a hexagon base, supporting a small circular piece on which rests the sacred skull. Around said circular piece is another circle in the shape of a crown, covered with blue enamel, with the following inscription in so-called Gothic letters, divided into eight sections:

HOC - OS - || EST - CAPI || TIS - SANTI (sic) || THARACHI - || MILITIS - E || T - MARTYRI || S

HOC OPVS FECIT FERI (sic) ALDROVANDIN ESTENSIS EPISCOP’ MUTINEÑ

This skull is the head of Saint Taraco, soldier and martyr.

This work (the shrine) is due to Aldobrandino d'Este of Modena bishop (Our translation)
We know that since Italian and Latin have no "th" sound, the "th" easily reduces, in vernacular literature, to "t". Also "a" and "o" appear as variant declensions in other words of this time (Alain at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=499&start=30#p18093. There is in French even the spelling "au", pronounced "o". "Tharachos" in Greek, like "taraxia" in Latin, means "tumult, perturbation", i.e. crazy (http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=317), and as such lends itself to such words as "theroco", for the "seirocho", i.e. sirocco, wind, the wind that makes crazy (http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 99&lng=ENG).

This particular saint, in the account of his martyrdom, was noted for his calmness in the face of abuse and torture, which infuriated his persecutors. So it might well be that "Taraco" was only a later ironic nickname (for what the interrogators called him), to suggest "tarachos" in the Greek-speaking city in which he is martyred.

What is of special interest is his remarks to his interrogators. It is no doubt standard hagiography; nonetheless that it appears in connection with "Tharaci" (genitive case for "tharaco" or "tharacus"), in the d'Este town of Modena, given special attention by a d'Este family member, gives us reason to suspect an association also in the d'Este tarot. The account (from a 17th century compendium) says, in the published Italian translation:
Massimo disse ai carnefici: rompetegli la bocca co’ sassi, e nel percuoterlo ditegli: lascia codesta tua vanità e pazzia. E Taraco diceva al presidente: se io fossi vano e pazzo, e non pieno della prudenza di Gesù Cristo, avrei già prima d’adesso fatto quello, che fai tu, che sei insensato affatto, e sacrifichi agli dei insensatissimi...

(Maximus said to the executioners: break his mouth with stones, and in beating him say: leave with this your vanity and insanity. And Taraco said to the president: If I were vain and mad, and not full of the prudence of Jesus Christ, I would have already done that before now, that which you do who are senseless[i.e. foolish] indeed, and sacrifice to most senseless gods".
To which Maximus replies:
: “Nella prossima sessione penserò ad altri tormenti, e gli troverò tali, che bene ti guariranno della tua pazzia…”

("In the next session I will think of other torments, and I will find those that will heal you well of your madness ...")
It is this "the prudence of Christ", which is madness to the world, in contrast to the foolishness of the world, which they take as prudence (sacrificing to the gods), is taken from 1 Cor. 1:19-20 (Vulgate and Douay-Rheims):
Scriptum est enim: Perdam sapientiam sapientium, et prudentiam prudentium reprobabo. Nam quia in Dei sapientia non cognovit mundus per sapientiam Deum: placuit Deo per stultitiam praedicationis salvos facere credentes.

(For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?)
I am led to wonder whether a similar juxtaposition may be at work in the tarot sequence. The World card, which shows an angel holding a terrestrial world, has been associated by some with the virtue of prudence. For myself, I notice on the Charles VI the attributes of the empress card, the scepter and globe, held by a lady with a halo. She is the empress of the World, God's Wisdom, who in the Old Testament is a feminine personification, but in the New Testament is associated with Christ. Thus 1 Cor. 1:24:
Ipsis autem vocatis Judaeis, atque Graecis Christum Dei virtutem, et Dei sapientia.

(But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.)
Although the Greek Sophia corresponds to the Latin sapientia, in the story of this saint it is called Christ's prudence. So the Fool is a fitting accompaniment to the preceding B order card, the World, which in turn is a fitting accompaniment to the preceding card, representing Christ's Justice. Putting both cards together, with the Fool at the end, closing the circle and thus serving also as the beginning, reminds us of the equation enunciated first by St. Paul and then by St. Taraco. He is thus a kind of patron saint also of the game of madness, in two senses.

Another interesting point is that part of the torture, at least of one of his companions named Agapito, was being hanged upside down in front of a furnace, tied to a tree. Andrea shows us a picture of a sculpture of this saint in that state done in 1607 and now in the Museum of Milan Cathedral. If so, this is a suggestion that the "hanged man" was not necessarily seen negatively, at least in the depictions where he does not have money bags. Andrea's analysis is that the upside down position reflects his status as traitor to the Roman religion. That sense would also fit the Sforza grandfather Muzio, whose "hanged man" picture was put on all the bridges of Rome by the false pope John XXIII.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#448
Sorry for my bad English but when I write in French, nobody reads me! (Well some but very few)
I must be the number one in "skipped" because : "no capito"..
And I cannot ask each time to be translated ...
So that's it as it is.

"Let it be!"
"Et vogue la galère!"

M Howard wrote on Aeclectic Tarot Forum presenting the Essay about the Arithmological tarot updated in English :
"I want to make it clear that this is not about the "original tarot" or the principles behind it, but rather about a way of seeing it that is in accord with the times, i.e. 15th-17th centuries, which saw a couple of explicitly Pythagorean analyses of both the tarot and ordinary decks and had been a way of seeing the cosmos and humanity since ancient. It very much makes sense, in terms of dividing the 22 cards into 4 distinct groups, one very close but not identical to the three groups that tarot historians have already seen, or thought they have seen, in the sequence. Alain's thesis is both original and well reasoned, yet in tune with the times in which the 22 subjects of the tarot developed.. Whether such a number-theoretical formulation actually played a part in that development is unknown, but it fits so well that it tempting to imagin"
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=264468

Following this way of Howard, I believe two sources are also important.
Gosselin about the ordinary deck and D'Oncieu about the Tarot.
http://tarotarithmologique.blogspot.fr/ ... alain.html

A very controversial article :
The article about Gosselin was discussed and revised here on THF.
With a little luck, it will soon be published on Le Tarot d' Andrea VITALI.
until now, wheras Pratesi and others had only considerated it's erroneous value as historical origin of cards. Never until now, what discussed the value of the pythagorean lecture. It appears that not only is there a pythagorean frame work but that the correspndences Colours / Elements are not random but platonician.

Special thanks to Michael Howard and Steve Mangan
Huck Meyer did not wish to be cited - even a contrario.
[Well, I understand and respect - anyway he'll be correctly cited in another article at work about the Goldsmchidt remaining hand painted on parchment cards dated mid XVth century!)
Nor Marcos, nor Caldwell, nor Greer wished to contribute... I don't know why...
NB I don't unerstand . ther are very little places of historical research on the web. For sure, we don't always have the means to inquire as specialists ... well, not always... we should support ourselves...THF is one of the rare if not the unique place where this is possible... Controverse and discussion are necessary ...but if nobody of only a few contribute, there is a lack of contributions


Image


A propos de :
1582 Gosselin Jean: "La signification de l'ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique(s) ..."
- La plus ancienne référence française connue d'une lecture pythagoricienne du Jeu de cartes ordinaires?


Une lecture pythagoricienne?
En conformité avec la théorie platonicienne des Éléments exposée dans le Timée

Copyright BOUGEAREL Alain , Octobre 2016, Avignon France

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#449
Yes, writing in English is better. We can deal with the grammar. Sometimes the translations of specific words create problems. Also when quoting French language sources, it is good to give a summary in English of what you have quoted.

That the four suits ("colours") have to do with the four elements seems plausible enough, and perhaps also the four winds. four qualities and the four humors. These were customary associations with the number four. Different people might have made the correlations in different ways. That there would have been different ways of doing it especially applies when we consider Latin suits in addition to French ones. French suits didn't exist until around 1470, at least according to Dummett. The Mamluks, who would have known about the four elements from the Arabs, had much the same suits as the Italians and Spanish, except for polo sticks instead of lances, batons, or clubs. I am not sure how the four elements would apply to German and Swiss suits. It is enough to tell a plausible story, for it to be a viable hypothesis.

I would invite you to consider also whether the specific order of the triumphs within your four groups, in the Marseille tarot, is also affected by Pythagorean considerations. That is to say, the Popess has to do with the Pythagorean Dyad rather than the Tetrad; the Emperor, on the other hand, has to do with the Tetrad as opposed to the other numbers from one to four, and so on. This would then relate to their specific values in divination as well. This type of analysis is something that Decker tries to do in his book The Esoteric Tarot (see my posts at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=971&p=14206&hilit= ... ean#p14206 and the next one), and that I have tried to do as well (see my blog at http://neopythagoreanisminthetrot.blogspot.com/). I think that a modified Pythagoreanism is behind many French-based (as opposed to Golden Dawn-based) esoteric interpretations of the pip cards (most explicitly, to both pips and triumphs, in John Opsaupos, http://wisdomofhypatia.com/OM/BA/PT/, which, however, he does not claim to be historically based).

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#450
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Special thanks to Michael Howard and Steve Mangan
Huck Meyer did not wish to be cited - even a contrario.
[Well, I understand and respect - anyway he'll be correctly cited in another article at work about the Goldsmchidt remaining hand painted on parchment cards dated mid XVth century!)
Nor Marcos, nor Caldwell, nor Greer wished to contribute... I don't know why...
NB I don't unerstand . ther are very little places of historical research on the web. For sure, we don't always have the means to inquire as specialists ... well, not always... we should support ourselves...THF is one of the rare if not the unique place where this is possible... Controverse and discussion are necessary ...but if nobody of only a few contribute, there is a lack of contributions
... :-) ... we're all getting older, also the internet and "our good old days" with it. You were also gone for a long time, btw, nice, that you came back to some activities.
We have had the mobile impact, persons went from complex email-communication (like email-lists, like forums) to the SMS message, that's a collective media change. Instead the home computer you've a lap-top or a mobile, that the people fascinates. And Twitter and other stupid things. The view at the internet becomes smaller, long messages are difficult to read at these mini-monitors.
Well, we don't get young people to the interest "Tarot-History", that's the point. And: European culture has not much children.
Actually we would need here a beginner zone
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mikeh and 8 guests

cron