A French Bishop or Cardinal?


Tha Anchor :

" I have already mentioned that the anchor on one Goldschmidt card links it to the Cary-Yale Hope card (at right), which in fact has an anchor on the bottom of the card." (M Howard)

The Mitre ;

Is is a Fleur de Lys?
In this cas as M Howard writes :

"That the subjects are French is suggested by the fleur-de-lys I seem to see in the bishop's mitre. I will get to the bishop later."
(...) here were many bishops, for example the one that had married Charlotte and Louis in 1453, or some favorite bishop of Charlotte's. But he is definitely French, as indicated by the fleur-de-lys on his mitre."

http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

"Crowned Delfin" and "Popess" of the Goldschmidt ?

Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier : Comte dauphin {delfin] d'Auvergne de son vivant appelé aussi en Italien Il Delfino

[Delfin]= Dauphin(of Auvergne), married Mantua 1481 to Claire de Gonzague and further on Crownded Vice - King of Naples (1495) linked before to Louis XI (Burgondy)and after to Charles VIII (Naples)

Identification plausible de Claire de Gonzague avec la dite "Papesse" du Goldschmidt .
Validation des suggestions de Huck Meyer

Hypothèse plausible et méritant examen.
Analyse détaillée :

Conclusion :
The suggestion of Il Delfino is a plausible one as representing the Crowned Delfin Dauphin card.

This possibility raises to 5 the number of candidates.

3 Delfin Dauphins of France

Futur Louis XI (my hypothesis)
Futur Charles VIII (Howard's preference)
Futur Louis XII

1 Delfin Dauphin of Auvergne

Il Delfino futur vice King of Naples (Hucks finding)

1 Crowned Delfin of the Count of DasaNa (Huck)

From my point of view and regarding a datation mid XVth century , only 3 are plausible.

2 Delfin Dauphins of France

Futur Louis XI (my hypothesis)
Futur Charles VIII (Howard's preference)

1 Delfin Dauphin of Auvergne

Il Delfino futur vice King of Naples (Huck's finding )

http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

I have reviewed your translation of this part, and it is excellent. I see where, if I had tried to do it myself, I would have made a total mess. Reading it increases, at least in that moment, my understanding of French constructions that differ from their equivalents in English.

I have a question about your previous post. You say:
From my point of view and regarding a datation mid XVth century , only 3 are plausible.

2 Delfin Dauphins of France

Futur Louis XI (my hypothesis)
Futur Charles VIII (Howard's preference)

1 Delfin Dauphin of Auvergne

Il Delfino futur vice King of Naples (Huck's finding )
Isn't that four?

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

There are quite a few others more.

A complex family of Venice ... ... for instance this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Dolfin

The Desana dolphins (at least 2)

Earlier dolphins ... and likely some others.
The Dauphiné (/ˌdoʊfiːˈneɪ/ or /ˈdoʊfɪneɪ/; French pronunciation: [dofine]) or Dauphiné Viennois, formerly Dauphiny in English, is a former province in southeastern France, whose area roughly corresponded to that of the present departments of Isère, Drôme, and Hautes-Alpes. The Dauphiné was originally the County of Albon.

In the 12th century, the local ruler Count Guigues IV of Albon (c.1095–1142) bore a dolphin on his coat of arms and was nicknamed "le Dauphin" (French for dolphin). His descendants changed their title from Count of Albon to Dauphin of Viennois. The state took the name of Dauphiné. It became a state of the Holy Roman Empire in the 11th century.

The Dauphiné is best known for its transfer from the last non-royal Dauphin (who had great debts and no direct heir) to the King of France in 1349. The terms of the transfer stipulated that the heir apparent of France would henceforth be called "le Dauphin" and included significant autonomy and tax exemption for the Dauphiné region, most of which it retained only until 1457, though it remained an imperial state until the French Revolution.
A Templar knight, who was tortured in the case of Jacques de Molay, is called Guido or Guy Delphin (or similar).

Different writing forms make the research difficult.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

[quote="mikeh"]I have reviewed your translation of this part, and it is excellent. I see where, if I had tried to do it myself, I would have made a total mess. Reading it increases, at least in that moment, my understanding of French constructions that differ from their equivalents in English.

Hi Mikeh

I'll return you the same appreciation and somewhere compliment : from French to English for your excellent translation in English of my essay in French ...

See : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=220#p17451
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

The newly revised version in French of my essay.
Le Tarot Arithmologique
La séquence arithmologique du nombre pentagonal 22 = 1+4+7+10

Download PDF link for paper version :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Nota bene : M. HOWARD has also published on Andrea VITALI's site a Review in English :
In Appreciation of Alain Bougearel's "1+4+7+10=22"

My Essai has now two additions (one phrase in the Introduction and a much longer additif in the Conclusion) to what has already been presented on Andrea VITALI 's site.
(in French) http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=603&lng=ITA
(in English) http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=603 (translation M. HOWARD)

Translation of the 2 additifs in English by M. HOWARD :

Additif :
At one point in history, probably at the latest before the end of the last quarter of the fifteenth century, the number of cards finally settled at 78, i.e. 56 + 22.

Conclusion: significance of the Math at the Omega of the arithmological sequence
Additif :
In the scholastic thought of the Church, the number 22 makes sense.
(Cf: Steve Morgan on THF : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=340#p17660 )

Thus Origen, one of the Fathers of the Church, was first, before being ordained a priest, a student of Ammonius Saccas, the teacher of Plotinus - the founder of Roman Neoplatonism, whose writings in their entirety were published by his disciple Porphyry of Tyre under the name of Enneads.
Origen, historically regarded as the Father of Biblical exegesis, defined the Number 22 in these terms:

In the order of the numbers, each individual number contains some strength and power over things. The Creator of the Universe has made use of this power and strength, either for the constitution of the universe itself or to express the nature of each thing as it appears. It follows, according to the Scriptures, that we must observe and calculate these aspects which belong to the numbers themselves. And in truth, the books of the Bible itself, such as the Jews have transmitted them, are [in number] twenty-two, equal to the number of Hebrew letters, and this is not without reason. Indeed, twenty-two letters [that] seem to be the introduction to God's wisdom and the knowledge of the world.
Select in Ps I - PG 12, 1084)
(Cf : A. Quacquarelli, s.v. Numeri, in DPAC, pages 2447-2448)

The members of the Neoplatonic academy in Florence (1459-1521) could not ignore it, whether Marsilio Ficino, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, [his friend] Giralomo Benivieni or others ...
(See: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1107&p=17190&hilit=Giovanni+Pico+della+Mirandola#p17190)

The 22 pictorial allegories and the 21 tarots + the Math:

Many lists of tarots consider the Math not to be part of the 21 tarots, even if positioning it in the 0 position before the Bagat, with an ordinal progression of:
0 and 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20, 21
Hence a count of:
0 [Math] + XXI Tarots

The "Sermones ...", the oldest list of tarots, positions the Math - while calling it NULLA -on the twenty-second line, after the World and before the Bagat:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,1 2, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 0
Hence a count of:
XXI Tarots + NULLA

The 1637 Rules, the oldest in France, count XXII Triumphs:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,1 2, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22
Hence a count of:
XXII Triumphs = XXI tarots + 1 (The Excuse)

These ordinal progressions in no way conflict with the arithmological generation of the Pentagonal Number 22 of 1 + 4 + 7 + 10.
Beyond knowing whether there are 21 or 22 Triumphs, the ordinal progressions are justly subject to perceiving the 22 pictorial allegories as arranged in a circle depicting an Ouroboros.

One can legitimately count:
- from the 1st Allegory to the 22nd: the Bagat is the first Triumph and the Math is the 22nd, after the 21st, the World
or indeed:
- from 0 to the 21st allegory: the Math is the 0th Triumph; the Bagat is the first, and the World, twenty-first.

In summary:
- the Math is the 22nd in ordinal position in a count of 1 to 22
- the Math is 0th in ordinal position in a count from 0-21
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Claire de Gonzague :Anne de Bretagne,Charles VIII, Louis XII

Link to the thread about the Goldschidt cards : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691

About a possible French / Mantoua connection of the Goldscmidt remaining cards : Claire de Gonzague



The datation of the Goldschmidt remaining cards is mid-XVth century.
In this case, my preference is Dauphin Louis XI and Charlotte de Savoie


viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17781&hilit ... 0XI#p17781
[In this hypothesis, Claire de Gonzague has no relevance]

But as M. Howard noted :
The card dating was done by pigment analysis, which dates a painting by determining when a particular pigment was produced, usually an approximate date range. Even then, it are mostly good for providing a date when a painting could not have been produced before, as paints can continue to be produced and especially used after the approximate date it went out of fashion
https://www.artexpertswebsite.com/scien ... alysis.php

This means that it is possible to admit a marge of incertitude from after 1450 :

So under Charles VIII (death 1498) [Louis XII (death 1515)]
[In these hypothesis, Claire de Gonzague likely could be relevant]

In this case, my guess would be that the marriage of Charles VIII with Anne de Bretagne is maybe the key event : 1491.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=dcqdAR ... UE&f=false
The hierarchy between the Comtesse Claire de Gonzague, first lady of the futur Queen Anne de Bretagne makes me give the preference to Anne de Bretagne as the Kneeling Lady
- even if she looks more similar to Claire de Gonzague's portrait (my first thought)
- even if Anne de Bretagne is a young teenager in 1491 (my second thought)

Claire de Gonzague, after her wedding in 1481 with Il Delfino, comte Gilbert de Bourbon-Montpensier and futur vice-king of Naples (1495) becomes the first Lady of Anne de Bretagne with whom she will be also in 1491 , date of the marriage with Charles VIII.
Cf : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1122#p17827

Claire de Gonzague (?) and Anne de France (?) attending Anne de Bretagne

The Deck would then logically be related to major events since Claire mariage until her husband becoming Vice King of Naples.

One of the major event could be Charles VIII mariage with Anne de Bretagne (14 years old) with the presence of Anne de France and Claire de Gonzague in 1491.

What could be the identity of the "Bishop" attending the marriage of Anne de Bretagne with Charles VIII?

The mariage of Charles VIII and Anne de Bretagne :

In fact, the religious celebration took place in two times with two Bishops:
one with Jean de RELY
one with Louis I d'Amboise.
There were two French Bishops for this marriage.

This corroborates M. Howard's suggestion of why the Goldsmichmidt Bishop could be a French reference : a "fleur de lys in his mitre" ?viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=420#p17826

Narration of the mariage : https://books.google.fr/books?id=dcqdAR ... UE&f=false

It is said that :
Jean de RELY , évêque d'Angers reçut d'abord les consentements des futurs époux.
Louis Ier d' Amboise, évêque d' Albi célébra ensuite la messe.
Among the remaining cards of an hypothetical complete deck (lost), the few cards left do refer in some manner to this story and period such as the Crowned Delfin and the Lady kneeling - alread studied.


Goldschmidt card Lady with the Castle /
Hypothesis : Anne de Bretagne and first lady behind Claire, Comtesse de Montpensier?

M. Howard wrote :
And the lady with the castle could be Anne of Brittany, who brought her independent duchy into the French orbit by marrying Charles in 1491, which is also when he assumed power at age 21

Claire is since since 1481 the first lady "la dame d'honneur" d 'Anne de Bretagne.
All along her tumultuous story [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_de_Bretagne
She'll be wirh her at her marriage with Charles VIII in 1491 in compagny of Anne de France, that is Anne de Beaujeu.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=dcqdAR ... UE&f=false

Note about Anne de France : she will be Regent from Louis Xi's death 1483 until Charles VIII mariage in 1491

À la mort de Louis XI en 1483, Charles VIII a treize ans et demi, la majorité royale étant fixée alors à quatorze ans. Anne de Beaujeu exerce la régence, de 1483 à 1491 avec son mari.
Conséquence de la Guerre folle, elle marie son frère Charles VIII à Anne de Bretagne, ce qui parachève l'expansion territoriale accomplie par Louis XI en préparant le rattachement du duché de Bretagne à la Couronne.
Duchesse de Bourbon
À la mort du duc Jean de Bourbon en 1488, elle négocie le duché de Bourbon pour son mari. Elle tient à Moulins une des cours les plus fastueuses du royaume

Anne de Bretagne.
Not only is she more implicated with the construction and renovation of castles, but she becomes Queen of France in 1491. And Claire is her first lady since 1481.
Yet, Anne de France is linked to the Mougins court for sure, she is the Regent of France and she is with Claire when Charles VIII is about to make Anne de Bretagne Queen of France.
Nevertheless, The Falconer card would be explained by the taste of Anne de Bretagne for hunting with falcons :
Elle a plusieurs précepteurs, tel son maître d'hôtel, le poète de cour Jean Meschinot (de 1488 à la mort de celui-ci en 1491), qui, lors des loisirs d'Anne, va chasser au faucon avec elle.

Later on ...
Anne de Bretagne at Charles VIII death will become Louis XII wife 1499 but now much more powerful and independant
Epilogue provisoire :"Talking aloud to myself" '(Ross)


Chiara (or Clara) Gonzaga *1.7.1464, +2.6.1503; m.24.2.1481 Gilbert I de Bourbon Cte de Montpensier, Duca di Sessa (*1443 +15.10.1496)

Ross recent question to me on Tarot History FB page, "What is the relevance of Claire de Gonzague to Tarot History?" stimulate me to precise my take about the intuition I had that Claire de Gonzague could well have been be a central key person for the Goldschmidt remaining cards.

The incertitude of the datation leads to different historical periods :

https://www.artexpertswebsite.com/scien ... alysis.php


The Card of the "Crowned Defin" offers as French Crowned Delfins :

or Louis XI and Charlotte de Savoie (earlier datation)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17781&hilit ... 0XI#p17781

or as later Crowned Delfin : 3

Later on ...

The French Crowned Delfins are 3 :
Dauphin of France Charles VIII
Dauphin of France Louis XII
Delfin Dauphin of Auvergne with Claire de Gonzague: Il Delfino futur vice-king of Naples in 1496.

Accepting the possibly of a later datation, I'd see the wedding of Anne de Bretagne with King Charles VIII in 1491 with presence of a French Bishop, Kneeling Lady and Lady with Castle as well as the presence of a Falconner as a possibility for a French connection.

In this case, the Crowned Delfin can be difficultly Charles VIII : he is already King.

My guess is : Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier Il Delfino , husband of Claire de Gonzague (1481) and vice-king of Naples in 1495 under Charles VIII.
His presence in the Deck can only be explained if it is in some direct manner a deck closely linked to Claire de Gonzague, his wife - relating major events (weding of Anne de Bretagne with Charles VIII) of her life since her wedding (1481) and her stay in Mantoua with Isabelle d'Este where she learns her husband's death in 1496.

In my mind, the Deck would then has been realized after his death in 1496 : Claire de Gonzague is in Mantoua with Isabelle d'Este .
C'est à Mantoue où elle est l'hôte de sa belle-soeur Isabelle d'Este que Claire apprend la mort de son époux le 9 novembre 1496 à Pouzzoles.
So probably under King Charles VIII (death 1498) - betwwen 1496 -1498.
The Deck would have been linked to main events of Claire de Gonzague's life between her wedding with Il Delfino and his becoming vice-king of Naples : probably her presence as first Lady of Anne de Bretagne.
The realisation of the Deck may be in connection with Isabelle d'Este.

Claire de Gonzague 's husband : Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier Il Delfino

Claire de Gonzague brother : François II de Mantoue

Claire de Gonzague sister in law : Isabelle d'Este

Claire de Gonzague Protectrice Anne de Bretagne

Claire de Gonzague Royal Protectors

Charles VIII

Louis XII

Aparte : Widow she'll be under the protection of Anne de Bretagne husbands : Charles VIII and Louis XII.
Le 7 avril 1498, Charles VIII meurt accidentellement sans enfant survivant. Louis se rend au château d'Amboise le lendemain pour rendre hommage au corps du défunt : il y est reçu et honoré par la Cour comme souverain
But it really seems far away from mid-century first datation...
Yet, it would mean that the hypothetical "Deck" of the Goldschmidt cards that I suppose being related to Claire de Gonzague could then have been made between 1496 (her husbad death and her stay with Isabelle d'Este) and 1503 (Claire's death) : 1496- 1498 : under CharlesVIII / 1499-1503 : under Louis XII.

Post scriptum : nevertheless, reamains open a last possible hypothesis : a Crowned French Delfin Dauphin : Dauphin futur Louis XII
Devenue veuve, [Claire de Gonzague] bénéficie de la protection du roi et tente de jouer un rôle politique, incitant François à maintenir de bons rapports avec Louis XII qui, après le duché de Milan, envisage de conquérir le petit marquisat. Tout au long de la crise politique de 1500, la comtesse met son talent de négociatrice au service de son frère pour sauver son état.
François II de Mantoue
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A ... de_Mantoue
Louis XII

Things have changed since her brother François II de Mantoua husband of isabelle d'Este leaded the Coalition against Charles VIII in 1495 retreating from Naples where he had left Claire de Gonzague's husband as vice- king of Naples :
C'est en 1495, alors que le roi de France Charles VIII a déclenché la première guerre d'Italie pour aller reprendre le royaume de Naples, qu'est constituée la Ligue de Venise pour le contraindre à quitter l'Italie. François II est nommé gouverneur général des armées vénitiennes et prend la tête des armées de la coalition. L'affrontement a lieu au cours de la bataille de Fornoue, près de Parme, victoire française dans la mesure où les Français, qui en fait rentraient en France, eurent moins de morts et blessés que la coalition et purent continuer leur route, victoire de la ligue dans la mesure où le bagage et le trésor de guerre napolitain de l'armée française fut pillé ou repris par les troupes de François II. À tout le moins, ce dernier en fut remercié par une nomination au grade de capitaine général et ses appointements furent augmentés.

Now, François II ( surely encouraged by Claire de Gonzague who knew about Louis XII ambitions to conquer the Marquisat of Mantoua) is with Louis XII against the Coalition.:

En 1499, deuxième guerre d'Italie : cette fois, le roi de France est Louis XII et il vient reprendre à Ludovic le More le duché de Milan, héritage de sa grand-mère Valentine Visconti usurpé par Francesco Ier Sforza, père du More. La coalition anti-milanaise est franco-vénitienne et François II se met au service du roi de France. Ce dernier le fait chevalier de l’Ordre de Saint-Michel dont il devient maître en 1507.
Au cours de la troisième guerre d'Italie, Louis XII reconquiert Milan qui avait été reprise par Ludovic le More et s'empare de Naples. François II est nommé lieutenant-général du royaume de Naples en 1503 pour une courte durée puisque les Français, après trois défaites, perdent à nouveau Naples en 1504.
François II devient lieutenant dans les troupes pontificales en 1506 et en est gonfalonnier en 1510.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests