Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#41
SteveM wrote,
Well, if nothing else, this thread has led to a new historical discovery, that of the earliest and most complete Venetian order of the tarots (which, in order from highest to lowest, puts the Matto last, below the bagatelle).

No one seems to be interested in this new discovery. I find it quite exciting, thus started a new thread on it, which no one seems to be interested in either! Oh, well,... researchers study has become unicorn, I suppose.
Steve, I had noticed your discovery and found it important (as I have other recent discoveries)-- but had nothing to say additionally. I was waiting until I had done a more thorough search of tarocchi appropriati, especially those in the "order of trumps" thread and Andrea's essays, several of which attribute card subjects to various ladies. I was intending to do such a search anyway, for poems which had the Fool above the World.

SoI have not found yours, confirming thus far that it is new to us. On the other hand, I have found one that I referred to in the "order of trumps" thread, that has the Fool above the World. It is clearly of Type B. It is in Andrea's essay, "Taroch è diventato lo mio core: L'Ordine dei Trionfi in una Villanella del sec. XVI" , http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 61&lng=ITA translated as "My Heart has become a Taroch: The Order of Triumphs in a Villanelle of the XVI century", http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 61&lng=ENG. It is not clear to me where Andrea got it. He mentions several collections but does not say specifically if this one was in one of them. It fits into a tradition dominated mostly by chess metaphors.
Taroch è diventato lo mio core
Mato va per il mondo, ahi sorte fella
Con gionto Angelo, Sole, Luna, e Stella.
Errando fugge l'infiammata casa
Il Diavolo disprezza, e morte chiama
Ch'apicato finir la vita brama.
Il Gobbo gli fa luce acciò la Ruota
Per forza lo conduce in man d'Amore
Che il car solo trionfa a tutte l'hore. .
La Temperanza, Papi, e Bagatino,
Circondano d'intorno a stò mio core
Si che Tarocchi è fatto per tuo amore.

(My heart has become a Tarot
Fool that goes around in the world, oh wicked fate
together with the Angel, the Sun, the Moon and the Star.
Wandering it escapes from the inflamed house
despises the Devil and calls death
as hanged it desires to end its life.
The Hermit lights its path until the Wheel
with force leads it into the hands of Love
because only the Chariot always triumphs.
Temperance, the Popes and the Magician,
circulate around my heart
so that the game of tarot is made for your love.)
Andrea comments:
La posizione del Matto in apertura del componimento si deve ovviamente ad esigenze di carattere letterario, mentre appaiono inusitate, seppur di facile comprensione, le espressioni "sorte fella" per indicare la Giustizia e "l'infiammata casa" per la carta della Torre.

(The position of the Fool at the opening of the work is due obviously to exigencies of a literary character, while the expressions "Wicked Fate" to indicate Justice and "Inflamed House" for the Tower card, although appearing to be uncommon, are easy to understand.)
It does not seem so obvious to me that the Fool is first because of "exigencies of a literary character". It could just as easily have been at the end. There seems to be a semantic connection, or at least an intended association in thought, between "tarocchi" and "matto" (it is the game of the fool), and the game is mentioned at both ends of the poem. Andrea dates it to the 16th century. I will keep looking for others.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#42
mikeh wrote: I have found one that I referred to in the "order of trumps" thread, that has the Fool above the World. It is clearly of Type B.
There is one with Matto numbered 22, but that is because the cards are numbered in sequence from 1 Angel to 22 matto, Bolognese Type A:

1. Angelo - Contessa Ippolita Borgonzi Segni di Parma
2. Mondo - Contessa Paola Fontana Salvioli
3. Sole - Contessa Anna Ratta de Bianchi
4. Luna - Contessa Vittoria Bentivogli Ranuzzi
5. Stella - Marchesa Bradamante Bevilacqua Bovio di Ferrara
6. Saetta - Marchesa Laura Spada Buoi
7. Diavolo - Contessa Lavinia Conti Baldi
8. Morte - Contessa Alessandra Zambeccari Bolognetti
9. Traditore - Contessa Silvia Barbazzi Ercolani
10. Vecchio - Contessa Laura Todeschi Todeschi
11. Roda - Contessa Maria Borgonzi Ranuzzi di Parma
12. Forza - Anna Orsi Boschi
13. Giusta - Contessa Maria Pepoli Malvezzi
14. Tempra - Marchesa Laura Pepoli Malvezzi
15. Carro - Marchesa Margaritta Boschi Bolognini
16. Amore - Maria Gentile Penelope Ratta
17. (no name) - Francesca Maria Grati Bugami
18. Quattro - Contessa Maria Camilla Grati Scarselli
19. Mori - Contessa Donna Catterina Caetani Grati
20. (no name) - Contessa Anna Boschetti Grati
21. Bagattino - Marchesa Isabella Zambeccari Pepoli
22. Matto - Contessa Anna Toccoli Castelli di Parma

http://trionfi.com/pratesi-cartomancer

The other few (type A) examples there also have Matto below Bagatino.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#43
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Hi Huck

Nice de see you again also!
Yes, your post is of interest for me.
With your permission, I'll insert it in an additionnal note with correct autorship.
Thanks
No problem from my side. But I wrote it just as a short note to inform you, what happened in some past in the "22"-discussions, which you possibly overlooked. Actually there is much more material and more to say to the both points.

This is another (big) point ...

Image


... it presents the 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching according a specific mathematical analysis. It has to be seen as 3-dimensional sphere, not as a circle.

If you count the hexagrams at the lower part, you get the numbers 1-6-12 and in the middle 3, totally 22.
The hexagrams at the upper part mirror the hexagrams at the lower part, and naturally these are also 22.
In the middle part you can count 20 hexagrams:

1 pair in the middle = 2 hexagrams
6 hexagrams in the inner sphere
6 pairs in the outer ring = 12 hexagrams
2+6+12 = 20
22+22+20 = 64

In a rather natural manner these 22 of the I-Ching mirror the 21 dice-results in throws with two dice. This has a very simple mathematical reason, cause two of the rings + the center with 3 hexagrams are composed either by two yang-lines and two yin lines and this have totally 15 (12 + 3) hexagrams (which is the number of dice-possibilities, if the two dice-results are not identical.

1-2
1-3
1-4
1-5
1-6
2-3
2-4
2-5
2-6
3-4
3-5
3-6
4-5
4-6
5-6

If the dice results are identical, you have 6 possibilities

1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6

... naturally identical to the both rings with 6 hexagrams with either 1-yang or 1-yin-line

The simple reason for the identity (between 21 dice results and the mentioned 22 hexagrams) is, that the hexagrams have 6 lines and the dice has 6 possible results. And it also has a natural, why there are 22 hexagrams and only 21 dice results ... I think you'll get it.

A further form of identity of 22 hexagrams / 21 dice results is given to the content of the Sepher Yetzirah, which has the theme "32 ways of wisdom" and these ways are parted in 10 numbers (Sephiroth) and 22 Hebrew letters.
Part of the content of the SY are the "six directions: bottom-top/right-left/front-back" and for the same logical reason (as in the case between 21 dice results and 22 hexagrams) it produces the same mathematical structure.

SY has 32 ways and the I-Ching has 64 hexagrams. But the 64 hexagrams are formed by 32 pairs, if one unites complementary hexagrams, for instance 111111 with 000000 and 100000 with 011111 etc.

for more detail:
http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

Naturally it's clear, that the 21 dice results appear only in a part of the structure, they are naturally not the complete structure.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#44
Because Alain did NOT answer still to my solid comments on his faulty theory - you (dear readers) should consider THIS post a follow-up of my former reply here …
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=30#p17003

Hi Alain.

This all is getting beyond ridiculous now – but since your topic that you opened with such little effort has caught „fire“ it should be all the more fun to post here.

The people (mentors / peers) you draw heavily upon to come to your meager theory about the 78 in a faulty tessellation did not come up with the easiest geometrical things – based on classical Pythagoreanism …

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoreanism/

… as you can see here in your own link to Aeclectic that you gave to bolster your claims in this quote from jmd (#30) (what is really funny me thinks!)…
What is highly fascinating is that the basic relative dimension of the decks available generally FAIL (jmd's BOLD emphasis – I just did the RED) to exhibit what may have been expected: golden rectangular proportions.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=29707&page=3
Now I did already give a link to prove that this is NOT true!
It does only APPEAR this way when you MEASURE the decks with a RULER.

The GOLDEN RECTANGLE instead is about MEANS!
Since you obviously don't read/observe/understand what my link held - I will show it HERE with some tidbits.
The following JPGs are from here onward ...

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044&start=70#p16581


Here is the The GOLDEN RECTANGLE on Jean Noblet's 1650 Tarot de Marseille …



Image




… and even a 10 year old could nowadays reproduce this in PS CC.

But if you do not own such means you could print it out and do it with a ruler and a pair of compasses to come to the same conclusion that is by the way indisputable – because you know: GEOMETRICS.

BUT the JN Tarot not only EXHIBITS what jmd does not KNOW – it comes with it's OWN UNIT …



Image




… that is also used to PRODUCE the special means the later TdMs EXHIBIT.
Here demonstrated with the most perfect Tarot by Paul Marteau for Grimaud in 1930.



Image


Image




This UNIT allows now to divide every single card of the 78 into 3 equal sections.
Just like PM presents it on HIS XXI Le MONDE …



Image




… what leads to the ladder device (that obviously was present in the former TdMs – because: 27! - but in secrecy so that it could escape your weary eyes)…



Image




… that in turn makes it possible to reproduce the VISCONTI-SFORZA KILIM-TESSELLATION-PATTERN on a big table with much smaller real cards without drawing and nails.

>> See the already linked Thread PDF here ...

https://www.scribd.com/document/2419687 ... ot-com-pdf

So the TESSELLATION is now hidden in the card faces and presented on the backs of some historical decks.

The Tarot de Marseille card's FRAMES themselves have now the same PROPORTIONS like the VISCONTI-SFORZA Tarot FRAMES – as presented here …



Image




… and jmd and ALL others BEFORE and AFTER him looked at the Tarot de Marseille this way …



Image




… what in itself is totally absurd because of the abrasion that all cards have to expect - only a real FOOL would „hide“ the The GOLDEN RECTANGLE in the cards body proportions.

This is ALL indisputable evidence because it can be reproduced by anyone and GEOMETRICS itself can not be disputed either.

When you now can manage to calm yourself a bit after such indisputable REVELATION that no one in your ranks and „above“ them is privy to UNTIL YOU make it known to them - you may ask yourself WHY your peers do not know ANYTHING about this unbroken chain of evidence and why I can present this all in one topic on 2 small thread pages …

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044&start=70#p16581

… for free while so many books are filled with even more horrible excursions than your faulty idea?

You did search for a method to apply some order to the 78 – which I respect – BUT you did it by using already faulty speculations of others before you.
So this is not entirely YOUR fault because those speculations were not scrutinized the way they should have been and so you built on them.
The ORIGINAL Visconti-Sforza Tarot already had harnessed the 78 in a very special way that you can look for when you apply more scrutiny to the HOLES there!

Maybe you should not believe in anything you read what your peers wrote and really look for yourself?

Adrian

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#45
Adrian ...

... :-) ... 1+4+7+10 results indeed in 22

1 - Libra ..... / object
4 - Gemini - Virgo - Sagittarius - Aquarius .... / humans
7 - Aries - Taurus - Cancer - Leo - Scorpio - Capricorn - Pisces / animals

... at least the inventor of the zodiac found 1 - 4 - 7 interesting

*********

If the life tree would run from Sephira 10 to Sephira 1, 1+4+7+10 makes also sense

10 = 1st

+3 (=9/8/7) = 4
+3 (=6/5/4) = 7
+3 (=3/2/1) = 10

As far I know, there are ideas, that one can ascend the life-tree.

*********

1x4x7x10 = 280 ... number of days of pregnancy post menstruationem, a traditional value (40 weeks)

... also not bad

*********

... .-) ... mankind loves to play with numbers
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#46
Huck wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Hi Huck

Nice de see you again also!
Yes, your post is of interest for me.
With your permission, I'll insert it in an additionnal note with correct autorship.
Thanks
No problem from my side. But I wrote it just as a short note to inform you, what happened in some past in the "22"-discussions, which you possibly overlooked. Actually there is much more material and more to say to the both points.

This is another (big) point ...

Image


... it presents the 64 hexagrams of the I-Ching according a specific mathematical analysis. It has to be seen as 3-dimensional sphere, not as a circle.

If you count the hexagrams at the lower part, you get the numbers 1-6-12 and in the middle 3, totally 22.
The hexagrams at the upper part mirror the hexagrams at the lower part, and naturally these are also 22.
In the middle part you can count 20 hexagrams:

1 pair in the middle = 2 hexagrams
6 hexagrams in the inner sphere
6 pairs in the outer ring = 12 hexagrams
2+6+12 = 20
22+22+20 = 64

In a rather natural manner these 22 of the I-Ching mirror the 21 dice-results in throws with two dice. This has a very simple mathematical reason, cause two of the rings + the center with 3 hexagrams are composed either by two yang-lines and two yin lines and this have totally 15 (12 + 3) hexagrams (which is the number of dice-possibilities, if the two dice-results are not identical.

1-2
1-3
1-4
1-5
1-6
2-3
2-4
2-5
2-6
3-4
3-5
3-6
4-5
4-6
5-6

If the dice results are identical, you have 6 possibilities

1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6

... naturally identical to the both rings with 6 hexagrams with either 1-yang or 1-yin-line

The simple reason for the identity (between 21 dice results and the mentioned 22 hexagrams) is, that the hexagrams have 6 lines and the dice has 6 possible results. And it also has a natural, why there are 22 hexagrams and only 21 dice results ... I think you'll get it.

A further form of identity of 22 hexagrams / 21 dice results is given to the content of the Sepher Yetzirah, which has the theme "32 ways of wisdom" and these ways are parted in 10 numbers (Sephiroth) and 22 Hebrew letters.
Part of the content of the SY are the "six directions: bottom-top/right-left/front-back" and for the same logical reason (as in the case between 21 dice results and 22 hexagrams) it produces the same mathematical structure.

SY has 32 ways and the I-Ching has 64 hexagrams. But the 64 hexagrams are formed by 32 pairs, if one unites complementary hexagrams, for instance 111111 with 000000 and 100000 with 011111 etc.

for more detail:
http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

Naturally it's clear, that the 21 dice results appear only in a part of the structure, they are naturally not the complete structure.

Hi HucK
Yes, this presentation is another modelisation possible indeed.

Different from Nicomaque de Gerase Pentagonal Number 22 but it makes sense for sure.

Reminder :
A.The arithmological sequence of the Pentagonal Number 22 is :

1+4+7+10 = 22

1
2,3,4,5
6,7,8,9,10,11,12,
13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22


B. Generation of pentagonal numbers ... on Wikipedia /
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... number.gif

One can see the four groups clearly

C. See also :
https://www.loebclassics.com/view/pytha ... 335.99.xml

PS
Moakley noted " the astonishing fact that there is, indeed,
something related to both the 4x14 suit cards and the 21 trumps,
namely the much older game of dice, from which they might have
stemmed. If we take the total number of choices possible when
throwing three or two dice, it adds up to either 56 (= 4x14) or 21,
respectively. " (Laurent Faber)

Now, if we consider as 22nd or 'nulla' an invalid throw of dices,
then there are 22 throws.

Morever, such an invalid throw could be seen as outside of of the
geometrical perimeter of a game of tables such as described by the
King Alphonse X (He makes a difference between game of spirit such
as chess, games of chance such as dices - the games of tables being
midway ) or more simply if the dices do not fall correctly...

Nevertheless, I appreciate your take on this point :

"In a rather natural manner these 22 of the I-Ching mirror the 21 dice-results in throws with two dice. This has a very simple mathematical reason, cause two of the rings + the center with 3 hexagrams are composed either by two yang-lines and two yin lines and this have totally 15 (12 + 3) hexagrams (which is the number of dice-possibilities, if the two dice-results are not identical.

1-2
1-3
1-4
1-5
1-6
2-3
2-4
2-5
2-6
3-4
3-5
3-6
4-5
4-6
5-6

If the dice results are identical, you have 6 possibilities

1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6

... naturally identical to the both rings with 6 hexagrams with either 1-yang or 1-yin-line

The simple reason for the identity (between 21 dice results and the mentioned 22 hexagrams) is, that the hexagrams have 6 lines and the dice has 6 possible results. And it also has a natural, why there are 22 hexagrams and only 21 dice results ... I think you'll get it. "
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Request

#47
The arithmological sequence 1+4+7+10 = 22 in relation with the 3 blocs is under discussion and research.

At this point of the critical analysis "still at work" mainly conducted by Mikeh, it appears that :

Type A does not fit the division 1 + 4 + 7 + 10 = the Pentagonal number 22.
Type B does fit.
Type C could fit.

My request would be to create a special section regulay updated when necessary with all the Ordinal known listing of Trumps.

Maybe here, maybe on trionfi?

Thanks for the feedback

Something like :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=552


PS It would be useful tu other resaerchers, I'm sure
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#48
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote: I have found one that I referred to in the "order of trumps" thread, that has the Fool above the World. It is clearly of Type B.
There is one with Matto numbered 22, but that is because the cards are numbered in sequence from 1 Angel to 22 matto, Bolognese Type A:

1. Angelo - Contessa Ippolita Borgonzi Segni di Parma
2. Mondo - Contessa Paola Fontana Salvioli
3. Sole - Contessa Anna Ratta de Bianchi
4. Luna - Contessa Vittoria Bentivogli Ranuzzi
5. Stella - Marchesa Bradamante Bevilacqua Bovio di Ferrara
6. Saetta - Marchesa Laura Spada Buoi
7. Diavolo - Contessa Lavinia Conti Baldi
8. Morte - Contessa Alessandra Zambeccari Bolognetti
9. Traditore - Contessa Silvia Barbazzi Ercolani
10. Vecchio - Contessa Laura Todeschi Todeschi
11. Roda - Contessa Maria Borgonzi Ranuzzi di Parma
12. Forza - Anna Orsi Boschi
13. Giusta - Contessa Maria Pepoli Malvezzi
14. Tempra - Marchesa Laura Pepoli Malvezzi
15. Carro - Marchesa Margaritta Boschi Bolognini
16. Amore - Maria Gentile Penelope Ratta
17. (no name) - Francesca Maria Grati Bugami
18. Quattro - Contessa Maria Camilla Grati Scarselli
19. Mori - Contessa Donna Catterina Caetani Grati
20. (no name) - Contessa Anna Boschetti Grati
21. Bagattino - Marchesa Isabella Zambeccari Pepoli
22.

http://trionfi.com/pratesi-cartomancer

The other few (type A) examples there also have Matto below Bagatino.

Steve

I don' t understand : is Matto - Contessa Anna Toccoli Castelli di Parma listed in ordinal sequence as 22 or not?

Thanks

PS i understand that is is primaly a Type A but with the Math afterr the World it becomes a Type B ...
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#49
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:
SteveM wrote:
There is one with Matto numbered 22, but that is because the cards are numbered in sequence from 1 Angel to 22 matto, Bolognese Type A....
http://trionfi.com/pratesi-cartomancer

The other few (type A) examples there also have Matto below Bagatino.

Steve

I don' t understand : is Matto - Contessa Anna Toccoli Castelli di Parma listed in ordinal sequence as 22 or not?

Thanks

PS i understand that is is primaly a Type A but with the Math afterr the World it becomes a Type B ...
Contessa Anna Toccoli Castelli di Parma is Matto @ 22, but it is not after the world, it is after the Bagattino at 21. As I noted, and is clear from the list, it is numbered in reverse order, 1. Angelo to 22. Matto. The other examples from that time and same order are not numbered (I think it is from one of those regions where numbering wasn't added to the cards anyways). The sequence is still Matto below Bagatelle (in one of the examples of Bolognese appropriati Pratesi reports at the above link, the 4 Moors are listed last, below the Matto).

Most of the appropriati list the Matto last (if not all? bar the exception of the above with the 4 Moors at the end), without number, so you could say that in them the Matto is in 22nd place, if you choose to number the trumps in order of mention, but that is because it seems to have been a convention of the form to go from highest card to lowest, and so then the World or Angelo would be 1st, and so on.

Pratesi says about the above example:

"From a specific point of view, it is important to remark that the order is here also indicated by numbers but they cannot correspond to any number typical of the triumphs since the list is written in descending order. This fact clearly confirms how, contrary to minchiate, the triumphs were certainly not distinguished with numerals by the players, even in the XVIII century."

This apparent appropriati convention of going in descending order brings to mind Gebelin/Mellet, with their descending order interpetation and attribution of Aleph to the World and Tau to the Fool.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#50
Thanks for this clarificaton;
Yes, the Math is 22nd but with the BAgat (and not the World!) as 21st . Marchesa Isabella Zambeccari Pepoli..


It could well make sense (especiaally interesting that it seems to derive from a Type A) ...

Let's see :
The arithmological sequence of the Pentagonal Number 22 is :

1+4+7+10 = 22

1
2,3,4,5
6,7,8,9,10,11,12,
13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22

Generation of pentagonal numbers ... on Wikipedia /
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... number.gi

Applied here it would give :

1. Angelo - Contessa Ippolita Borgonzi Segni di Parma

2. Mondo - Contessa Paola Fontana Salvioli
3. Sole - Contessa Anna Ratta de Bianchi
4. Luna - Contessa Vittoria Bentivogli Ranuzzi
5. Stella - Marchesa Bradamante Bevilacqua Bovio di Ferrara

6. Saetta - Marchesa Laura Spada Buoi
7. Diavolo - Contessa Lavinia Conti Baldi
8. Morte - Contessa Alessandra Zambeccari Bolognetti
9. Traditore - Contessa Silvia Barbazzi Ercolani
10. Vecchio - Contessa Laura Todeschi Todeschi
11. Roda - Contessa Maria Borgonzi Ranuzzi di Parma
12. Forza - Anna Orsi Boschi

13. Giusta - Contessa Maria Pepoli Malvezzi
14. Tempra - Marchesa Laura Pepoli Malvezzi
15. Carro - Marchesa Margaritta Boschi Bolognini
16. Amore - Maria Gentile Penelope Ratta
17. (no name) - Francesca Maria Grati Bugami
18. Quattro - Contessa Maria Camilla Grati Scarselli
19. Mori - Contessa Donna Catterina Caetani Grati
20. (no name) - Contessa Anna Boschetti Grati
21. Bagattino - Marchesa Isabella Zambeccari Pepoli
22. Matto - Contessa Anna Toccoli Castelli di Parma
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

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