Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#311
Huck wrote,
Well, Timaios/Platon had cube (4) for earth (if I understood this correctly) and the Chinese heaven-metal is somehow opposite to the idea of "earth" (but also connected to 4 in China). And the dodecahedron with the pentagons (5) is associated to Aither (if I understood MikeH correctly) in Timaios/Platon and father/heaven/metal would fill the position perfectly, but is connected to 4 and instead mother/earth has the 5.
Yes, the cube is earth for Plato. But for him, "aether" is a form of air (Timaeus 58d):
In the next place we have to consider that there are divers kinds of fire. There are, for example, first, flame; and secondly, those emanations of flame which do not burn but only give light to the eyes ; thirdly, the remains of fire, which are seen in red-hot embers after the flame has been extinguished. There are similar differences in the air; of which the brightest part is called the aether, and the most turbid sort mist and darkness; and there are various other nameless kinds which arise from the inequality of the triangles. Water, again, admits in the first place of a division into two kinds; the one liquid and the other fusile...
For Plato, and the dodecahedron is associated with the celestial realm of the zodiac, and not with any element. It is Aristotle who associates it with an element, which he apparently called the "first" element rather than "aether" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_%2 ... element%29). Aristotle is adding to Plato with this element, because of his need not to have a vacuum there. It was unlike the other elements, in not having any of the four qualities, in moving circularly rather than linearly like the other four, and was not subject to change. Wikipedia adds:
With this addition the system of elements was extended to five and later commentators started referring to the new first one as the fifth and also called it aether, a word that Aristotle had not used.
But "aether", if referring to the substance of the "crystalline sphere"--a substance for which Plato apparently saw no need--is an Aristotelian contribution to tradition rather than a Platonic one.

An example of this Aristotelian kind of thinking, four elements plus quintessence. applied to divination is found in Hugh of St.-Victor (1096-1141, a much-read author during the time of the early tarot (quoted without other particulars in Nigel Pennick, Secret Games of the Gods, 1989, reprinted 1997, p. 231):
Mantike, that is aeromancy, geomancy, hydromancy, necromancy, and pyromancy. The 'mancies' of the four elements, plus that of departed spirits, which might be associated with the Quintessence, and the alchemical arts.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#312
Aither is already a terminus pre-Platon, for "Light", by Hesiod.

"According to the Greek oral poet Hesiod's Theogony, Erebus is the offspring of Chaos, and brother to Nyx: "From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night (Nyx); but of Night were born Aether and Day (Hemera), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus." Hesiod, Theogony (120–125)"

That's a sort of theory about world genesis. Theories with elements like fire, water etc. are another form of world genesis.
It's easily possible, that Hesiod's day is a disguised element "fire" and Nyx a disguised "water" ... for instance. Aether might mean in this context "air" and Erebos "earth", and the later function of the central Aether might have been taken by Chaos ... just a possibility.

Platon's "zodiac" for the Dodecahedron clearly seems to be influenced by the "12".
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Gosselin 1582

#313
I'm back ...for a while

The reviews about Gosselin are now about to be finished.
Michael's review is already published.
I've integrated his analysis in my own article : it is the first part in extenso.

I'm closing now this topic with the final version of my lecture of Gosselin :

Web Page on Google :
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MTP ... mCoA8Y/pub

Download link PDF :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Nevertheless, I'm open to any comments or rectifications...

In the future, if new data is discovered, the topic shall be re-opened...
To resume the different lectures of Gosselin :

Pratesi : a non historical analysis of ordinary cards with a superficial touch of pythagoreanism
Howard : a Pythagorean framework
Bougearel : a Pythagorean lecture with a correspondence Elements / Enseignes in conformity with Plato's Timeus


Thanks for sharing your appreciations

Mikeh? Steve? Huck?
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - narrowing datations

#314
We need not only a plausible but a probable datation of the 22 + 56 = 78 cards of the "classical" tarot
Exactly the first use of the 4x14 +22 = 78 structure.


Should be takenin consideration for this 3 documents :
- Boiardo Tarocchi poem 1460 (1487?) 1494
- Sermones de Ludo Cum Allis 1460 (1470?) 1500
- Sola Busca circa 1491

nb
This narrowing of datations is important to offer a correct estimation of the possible arithmological structure of Tarot as :
78 = 22 + 56 (40 +16)
My guess for the whole structure should be : ante 1491
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - narrowing datations

#315
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:We need not only a plausible but a probable datation of the 22 + 56 = 78 cards of the "classical" tarot
Exactly the first use of the 4x14 +22 = 78 structure.


Should be takenin consideration for this 3 documents :
- Boiardo Tarocchi poem 1460 (1487?) 1494
- Sermones de Ludo Cum Allis 1460 (1470?) 1500
- Sola Busca circa 1491

nb
This narrowing of datations is important to offer a correct estimation of the possible arithmological structure of Tarot as :
78 = 22 + 56 (40 +16)
All those three, the earliest we have, refer to XXI + Fool:

In the Sermon the fool is numbered 0, the trumps are described as being 21 (the 21 steps to hell);
In the Sola Busca the Mato is numbered 0, the rest have Roman numbers I-XXI
In the Boiardo it is stated: there are "twenty and one triumphs; and in the meanest place/Is a fool, because the fool the world adores."

Unless there is further information available, I don't think we have enough information to date them otherwise than as we have.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - narrowing datations

#316
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:We need not only a plausible but a probable datation of the 22 + 56 = 78 cards of the "classical" tarot
Exactly the first use of the 4x14 +22 = 78 structure.


Should be takenin consideration for this 3 documents :
- Boiardo Tarocchi poem 1460 (1487?) 1494
- Sermones de Ludo Cum Allis 1460 (1470?) 1500
- Sola Busca circa 1491
I think, that 1487 is rather sure, just in my opinion, for the Boiardo Tarocchi. Steven has another opinion, I think.

Sermones de Ludo cum allis should be relative late. See: http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
"The manuscript pages have many different watermarks. All of them date from around 1500 and come from places near Ferrara. The order of the Tarot trumps, as given in the manuscript, is the Ferrarese order. The author was definitely a monk. One of the sermons is about the stigmata of St. Francis, so I think it likely that the monk was a Franciscan. I do not know on what basis others have declared the author to have been a Dominican." (Ronald Decker)

A part of the text with playing cards, which didn't include the Trionfi list, was earlier (around 1470). Ross explained this once.

1491 for Sola-Busca ... I accept this.

Franco Pratesi has analysed a Bologna document of 1477. He came to the conclusion, that the price relation in this production deal was 4:5 between decks without trumps and decks with trumps. Franco suspects, that the number of cards decided the price, and according this the trumps row should have had the same number of cards as the single suit rows ... as in the 5x14-theory, but also in decks with for instance 5x15 or 5x13 cards.

The Boiardo deck (assumed in January 1487) might have been the first with the game structure 4x14+22. Especially curious is the condition, that Pico de Mirandola (younger cousin to the much older Boiardo) published his famous work in December 1486, so just one month before the wedding of Lucrezia d'Este (who likely got this poem ... according my assumption). Both (Pico and Boiardo) had studied Hebrew texts. However, evidence for a strong relation between between Pico and Boiardo is missing.
Pico made once a Trionfi card poem, Ross detected it. I think from 1481, but I don't find the discussion.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#317
Thanks Steve.



NB
It is not important for me for the moment that : 22 is given as 21+0.
It is not a numerical card and is not an Honour.
....
To simplify I now see the 22nd = 0 as an Omega and an Alpha - in a circular manner.
A Zero of position.
To make me understand I'll take an example from the civilisation who invented the zero : the ancient mayan astronomers mathematicians.
Image


In one of their count of Tme, they had 20 units.
These 20 units were represented in a circle.
So the 20th was omega as 20th and Alpha as Zero...

So they counted both ways :
from 1 to 20
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzolk%27in
or
from 0 to 19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals

To be more clear, in their Sacred calendar Tzolkin:
-counting from 1 to 20 : the Dragon ot Imox in Mayan language is First and the 20th is the Sun or Ahau in Mayan after the 19th, the Storm or Kawok
-counting from 0 to 19th : The Sun or Ahau is Zero, the Dragon or Imox is First and the Storm or Kawok is 19th

Applied to the 22 pictural allegories :
one can count
- from 1 to 22nd : the Bagat is First and the Math is 22nd after the 21th, the World
or
- from 0 to 21th : the Math is Zero, the Bagat is First and the World is 21th

....

Another example linked this time hypothetically to Pic de la Mirandole and Qabbalah with the disposition in a circular manner of the 22 letters- numbers of the Mosaïc alphabet but no Zero here:
Image


...
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - narrowing datations

#318
Huck wrote: I think, that 1487 is rather sure, just in my opinion, for the Boiardo Tarocchi. Steven has another opinion, I think.
I think more likely late 60s to mid-70s. The 'surety' of 1487 seems to me to rest on the appeal (or agenda) of a mirandola/kabbalistic inluence, rather than the evidence (more accurately, speculation), which appears to me rather weak.
Pico made once a Trionfi card poem, Ross detected it. I think from 1481, but I don't find the discussion.
Yes, you have mentioned this before and I haven't been able to find it either. I have messaged Ross to ask if he can recall it.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#319
I think more likely late 60s to mid-70s. The 'surety' of 1487 seems to me to rest on the appeal (or agenda) of a mirandola/kabbalistic inluence, rather than the evidence (more accurately, speculation), which appears to me rather weak.
... :-) ... the connection to Pico de Mirandola was an additional (later) surprise, not the reason for the dating. Actually we had searched for a plausible date without success. Then the existence of the older daughter Lucrezia d'Este came as a surprise, we (or at least me) had completely overlooked her, also that she was honored with a gigantic theater show and a grand festivity in Bologna. And many poets created poems for her wedding. Then the conclusion was logical: Lucrezia had the highest trump in the poem.
The Roman Lucrezia as highest trump in connection to "Fortezza" appeared (at least to me) as a not logical part in the poem.

The detection was here ... December 2007.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p= ... ost1284963
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - narrowing datations

#320
Sermones de Ludo cum allis should be relative late. See: http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
"The manuscript pages have many different watermarks. All of them date from around 1500 and come from places near Ferrara. The order of the Tarot trumps, as given in the manuscript, is the Ferrarese order. The author was definitely a monk. One of the sermons is about the stigmata of St. Francis, so I think it likely that the monk was a Franciscan. I do not know on what basis others have declared the author to have been a Dominican." (Ronald Decker)

A part of the text with playing cards, which didn't include the Trionfi list, was earlier (around 1470). Ross explained this once.

Have we more informations about this?



The Boiardo deck (assumed in January 1487) might have been the first with the game structure 4x14+22. so just one month before the wedding of Lucrezia d'Este (who likely got this poem ... according my assumption).
Pico made once a Trionfi card poem, Ross detected it. I think from 1481, but I don't find the discussion.[/quote]

Have we more information abou this?



Huck
What have we about this Lady PIA so influent in the Court of Urbino games?
Viti is said to be influent there ...
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

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