Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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mikeh wrote:Two translation questions.

Alain wrote
PARTIE is the game with all the tricks, winned ou lost.
In English we make a distinction between a "hand" and a "game". To play a hand means to play the sequence of tricks from the deal until all the cards are played, after which the points are added up. A game is a succession of hands, sufficient to add up to the necessary number of points to win, or the succession of hands that gcontinues until they stop (in poker, for example). Is a "partie" the hand or the game?

Une partie here is <hat you call a hand : To play a hand means to play the sequence of tricks from the deal until all the cards are played, after which the points are added up.
Now also une partie playung belote dor example can have many "hands" : partie , revanche and uf the revanche is not won by the same winner of the first "hand", la "belle" - a third hand that will design the winner .


Alain wrote:
[MAROLLES, Michel de],Regles dv iev des tarots, s.l. [Nevers] : s.n. [Jean Fourré], s.d. [1637]
(BnF, Mss., Dupuy 777, f°94-97).
I assume that "s.l." means "without location" and "s.d." means "without date". Does "s.n." mean "without name", i.e. "without name of author", or is it "without name of publisher"? I would assume the latter, because Michel de Marolles is the author. Also, in the expression "abbé de Marolles", is it "Abbot de Marolles", i.e. the abbot named de Marolles, or is it "Abbot of Marolles," meaning the abbot of a place called Marolles? I assume the former, since his name here is "MAROLLES, Michel de", but I want to be sure.

S.L
Sans Lieu
S.N.
Sans Nom
S.D
Sans Date
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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Another relevant consideration. Dummett and McLeod say on p. 6 that the Fool in the 18th century lost its function as Excuse and became simply the 22nd triumph. They do not say where this happened, but I would assume in Germany and German-speaking Switzerland at least, since the card seems still to have been known as the "Sküs", even though it no longer played that role. But the function of Excuse seems to have been retained somewhere, because de Gebelin writes about the Fool's role in these terms, I think.

added later: thanks for your quick answers to my other questions.
Last edited by mikeh on 01 Sep 2016, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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One thing more. Dummett and McLeod (pp. 18-19)say of the manuscript by de Marolles
It is accompanied in the manuscript department of the Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris, by a manuscript summary of the rules, ascribed by Depaulis to Augustin Dupuy (1581-1641). In [start p. 19] 1622 Francois Garasse had written that the game of Tarot was more popular in France than chess. The description is evidently of a standard form of the game, since it tallies very well with that given by de Gebelin in 1781, as described in Chapter 3. As Thierry Depaulis has pointed out, certain of its expressions occur in the poem Triomphe du Berlan by Jean Perrache, suggesting that it may go back in this form to the XVIth century.
As I read this, Dupuy's account is roughly contemporaneous with de Marolles', and it is that account that corresponds in wording to Perrache's. Since Dupuy's account parallels de Gebelin's, the implication is that de Gebelin also is describing a quite ancient form of the game, going back to the 16th century. Yes or no?
Last edited by mikeh on 01 Sep 2016, 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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mikeh wrote:Another relevant consideration. Dummett and McLeod say on p. 6 that the Fool in the 18th century lost its function as Excuse and became simply the 22nd triumph. They do not say where this happened, but I would assume in Germany and German-speaking Switzerland at least, since the card seems still to have been known as the "Sküs", even though it no longer played that role. But the function of Excuse seems to have been retained somewhere, because de Gebelin writes about the Fool's role in these terms, I think.

added later: thanks for your quick answers to my other questions.
As far as I recall some tarot appeared with fool as trump xxii in response to a new version of a game, i think as you say germany or switzerland - the game with fool as excuse obviously continued. The game with fool as trump xxii was a new game in some regions (as above, I think).

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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mikeh wrote:One thing more. Dummett and McLeod say of the manuscript by de Marolles
It is accompanied in the manuscript department of the Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris, by a manuscript summary of the rules, ascribed by Depaulis to Augustin Dupuy (1581-1641). In 1622 Francois Garasse had written that the game of Tarot was more popular in France than chess. The description is evidently of a standard form of the game, since it tallies very well with that given by de Gebelin in 1781, as described in Chapter 3. As Thierry Depaulis has pointed out, certain of its expressions occur in the poem Triomphe du Berlan by Jean Perrache, suggesting that it may go back in this form to the XVIth century.
As I read this, Dupuy's account is roughly contemporaneous with de Marolles', and it is that account that corresponds in wording to Perrache's. Since Dupuy's account parallels de Gebelin's, the implication is that de Gebelin also is describing a quite ancient form of the game, going back to the 16th century. Yes or no?
What Depaulis says and he quotes De Gebelin is the game with one player as Dead , he attributes this varaint to Marie de Nevers innovations.
Depaulis notes that expressions that are in the rules of 1637 are to be found before in Perrache for example.

The twothings are separated in Depaulis exposé.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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See :
"Ainsi donc, un passage négligé des Mémoires de Michel de Marolles permet d’éclairer un mystérieux petit imprimé du département des Manuscrits de la BnF. Inspiré par Louise-Marie de Gonzague-Nevers, rédigé à l’été 1637 par l’abbé de Marolles et aussitôt imprimé à Nevers par Jean Fourré, « Imprimeur de Mesdames », ce texte porte témoignage de la grande vogue du jeu de tarot en France dans la première moitié duXVIIe siècle. Il montre que la façon de jouer la plus courante était une forme à trois joueurs, qu’on pouvait aussi pratiquer à deux avec un
mort , des règles qui paraissentavoir perduré jusqu’à la fin du XVIIIe siècle en dépit du déclin brutal de la popularité du jeu après la Fronde : Antoine Court de Gébelin donne dans le tome VIII de son Monde primitif
(1781) une « Maniere dont on joue aux Tarots » qui est, ni plus ni moins, la variante à deux, avec un mort, décrite par les Regles dv iev des tarots


L’intérêt du petit imprimé nivernais réside aussi dans la variante à 66 cartes imaginée par Louise-Marie de Gonzague-Nevers. Il ne semble pas que celle-ci ait dépassé le cercle des amis de la duchesse car on n’en trouve l’écho nulle part ailleurs
.
« Un de nos amis, M. L’A. R. – écrit Court – a bien voulu nous expliquer la maniere dont on le joue :c’est lui qui va parler, si nous l’avons bien compris. »

See also :
Notes 32 and 33
http://www.academia.edu/15316947/_Quand ... p._313-326
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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Mikeh

Reading Huck's very interesting cntributions :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17428#p17430
I've asked myself what could look like the Deck of Tarots of Marolles...

Later on, in his Memories, he describes a Ballet with an Entry of Tarots and Cards.
Maybe this was the game he had seen and played in 1637 - he builds a choregraphy with his fancy and creativity of a Ballet
Amongst all the Triomphes of the 1637 Rules, he chooses only the 3 tarots : Monde, Math et Bagat that he describes.

A little earlier, in his Memories, p. 120, he refers to 1625 to a real Ballet with something rather similar yo legitimate his choregraphy



As I believe that this data could be interesting for this thread, translation in English welcomed : Steve?

About Math, Monde et Bagat :

Memoires de l'Abbé de Marolles, T III
Neuvième discours du Ballet
https://books.google.fr/books?id=Sfk_AA ... ts&f=false


P 120

"Que si le Ballet n'est point du tout sérieux, il faut néanmoins que la manière et l'invention nouvelle le rendent agréable et honnête, y mêlant des choses extraordinaires qui tiennent du merveilleux, comme au Ballet des Fées des Forêts de S. Germain, dansé en l'année 1625, où Guillemine la Quinteuse, Robine la Hasardeuse en Jacqueine l' Entendue, Alison la Hargneuse et Macette la Caapricieuse (c'est ainsi que se nommaient les cinq Fées de ce Ballet) signalèrent admirablement leur pouvoir ; la première, présidant la Musique ; la seconde, aux jeux de hasard; la troisième, aux divers excès de Folie ; la quatrième, aux Combats, et la dernière, à la Danse ; chacune, qui avait son Acte à part, composé de diverses entrées, envoyant devant elle son Génie qui faisait le Récit ;
l'un habillé de Violons, de Tuorbes(?) et de Luths, et coiffé d'un Pupitre ou Lutrin pour la Musique ; le second, vêtu de Cartes et de Tarots, de Dez, d'Echiquiers (...)


P. 139 (voir aussi prélude fin page 138) et suivantes


[ACTE I]

Second Dessein
Pour le Ballet des Armoiries, où se trouve compris celui des Cartes et des Tarots

IV Entrée
que de ce Pavillon
(Pavillon royal décrit auparavant) ... sortent
V Entrée
Le Monde, le Mat et le Bagat, pour tenir lieu de Juges du Camps ; le Monde représenté par une grosse boule qui se meut d'elle-même, ayant quelque forme humaine, ou bien par une Figure coiffée d'un Globe et ceinte du Zodiaque, en guise d'écharpe ; le Mat habillé en Fou ; et le Bagat comme un Mercier de Bagatelles.

VI Entrée
Les quatre Rois ds Tarots, accompagnés chacun de leur Epouse, vêtus à peu près comme ils sont représentés dans les Cartes ; leurs robes ou manteaux semés de marques qu'on leur donne, comme par exemple , le Roi de coupes habillé d'un manteau rouge, semé de coupes d'or ; celui d'epées, de pourpre semé d'épées d'argent, à la garde d'or ; et celui de bâtons d'argent, semé de bâtons de Synople (?) : les Reines vêtues de la m^me sorte et couronnées de façon ridicule.

VII Entrée

Les quatre Chevaliers des mêmes Tarots, montés sur leurs Chevaux caparaçonnés de leurs Enseignes de Couleurs de Coupe, d'Epée, de Bâtons et de Deniers, l'un vêtu en Duc ; l'aitre, en Marquis ; l'autre en Comte ; et le dernier, en Vicomte ou Baron ; qui sont tous habits différents.

VIII Entrée

Les quatre Valets à pied qui sont comme des Ecuyers, chacun portant son Enseigne avec la rondache (bouclier)
et l'épée haute ; cette rondache marquée de Deniers, de Coupes, d'Epées et de Bâtons.

IX Entrée

Marolles décrit ensuite l'entrée des Cartes à jouer ...

Les quatre Valets de Cartes communes, habillés avec les marques qu'ils portent, de Coeur, de Carreau, de Trèfle et de Pique, représentant la Hire
(? etienne de VIgnolles dit La Hire http://duguesclin.free.fr/guerre_de_cen ... a_hire.htm),
Lancelot du Lac, Oger le Danois, et Galaor : on poura si l'on veut, faire combattre avec es Valets ou les Faons des Tarots; qu'ls chasseront de vive force, avec tout ce qui porte leurs livrées, pour faire place aux Zntrées suivantes

X ENTREE
Les quaTre Reines des Cartes, habillées de vestes banches semées, les une de coeurs rouges, les atres de carreaux de même couleur et les deux autres, de piques et de trèfles noirs er seront suivies par

XI ENTREE

Le Ballet se termine par l'évocation du Monde, Mat et Bagat parmi les Rois et Reines des Cartes à jouer...

"Les quatre Rois de Coeur, de Careau, de Trèfle et de Pique,faisant un plaisant ballet avec les Reines leurs épouses, qui seront étonnées de se voir parmi des Gens inconnus où le pouvoir de quelque Urgande les aura transportées ; et, si l'on le juge à propos, le Bagat des Tarots les divertira de ses petits bijous, ou le Fou des mês Tarots leur donnera du plaisir, et le Monde les obligera tous de se renfermer dans le Pavillon [royal intial d'où ils sortirent pour le Ballet] lequel disparaîtra tout aussitôt"

FIN DU PREMIER ACTE
Last edited by BOUGEAREL Alain on 01 Sep 2016, 13:55, edited 21 times in total.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Depaulis attributs the invention to Marie de Nevers but ut is not probable that she inveted alone these special rules. She is very young . I believe she had already before Marolles stay in Nevers these rule s.
From where did she took them? Were they inuse in France before 1(_( , were they imported via Mantoua?
We lack data and references.
But we're progressing...
Alain, I earlier wrote:
Alain, I had worked out once, that the "Tarot de Paris", usually given to c. 1600, likely was done in 1559, initiated by 2 young Italian princes (Gonzaga and Strozzi). Louis Gonzaga, one of them, became then duke of Nevers and very influential in France. Likely he caused, that Henry III of France, before king of Poland, became very interested in Italian fashions in 1574.
So there is one family line between Isabella d'Este in Mantova (with influence on some Sforza cards in 1512) and Louis Gonzaga in 1559 and this Gonzaga-Nevers daughter in 1637. Tarot became very very popular in France with Henry III, not before.
There's one family (Gonzaga), from which a branch (Louis Gonzaga and his descendents) came into the possession of Nevers and important in France. This happened short before the end of the longer wars between Habsburg and France. The peace was celebrated in 1559, and the French king died at a tournament. At this opportunity likely the "Tarot de Paris" was produced ... the date can be recognized, if one studies the coin suit of the Tarot de Paris.

Image


The 2 of coins contains heraldic from Gonzaga and from the Strozzi family. Members of the Strozzi family had fought for France and also Louis Gonzaga. As Gonzaga came late to the French side, it seems obvious, that this card should have been made later than that event.

Another heraldic coin card (number 9) refers to the lover (Diane de Poitiers) of the king Henry II, who died 1559. Diane de Poitiers had a foe in the wife of Henry II, Catherine of Medici, who reduced her position (in 1559). Diane wouldn't have been mentioned in a deck "after 1559", she had lost her protection with the death of Henry II.

Image

The researcher Popoff recognized:

Image


Image


The chiffre of Diane de Poitiers in another context:

Image


The chiffre for Henry II appears at the coin card 10:

Image


Image


So it comes, that 1559 is a plausible date at least for the coin suit of the deck "Tarot de Paris", but likely for the whole composition.

The 2 of coins is often used for the producer of the deck, in this case it would be Louis Gonzaga and and a young descendent of the Strozzi family (the only Italian heraldic on the cards) ... somehow logical importers of Italian culture to France in the form of Tarocchi cards.

******************

This are details from ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=755&hilit=1559+paris#p10826
The larger topic starts here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=755&hilit=1559+paris#p10777

Naturally you have to learn for your questions, how the later Gonzaga of Nevers were related to this earlier Lodovico or Louis Gonzaga and how this Lodovico (active 1559) was related to Isabella d'Este (active 1512). Also you have to learn, how Lodovico influenced Henry III (king in 1574), that Henry III was interested in Italian fashions inclusive the Tarot cards.
Huck
http://trionfi.com