Re: Le Tarot arithmologique -22 Atouts and 220 emblems

#23
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Aparte

Of interest also the relation between the 4 decades and the 22 Atouts.

22 Trumps
and
220 emblems in the 4 suits of pips

[1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55) X 4] = 220

Nota

Jean Michel DAVID noted about this correlation :
"There are a total of 220 implements represented in the pips ... : each suit has
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55, making a total of (given there are four suits) 220.

This is of course quite marvelous in terms of its mathematical connection to the 22 Atouts."
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#24
It seems to me some cautions or qualifications are in order to Alain's thesis.

First, it only applies to two of the B lists of the triumphs. Others have the Fool at or near the beginning of the sequence: e.g. the one reported by Bertoni (http://www.tarock.info/bertoni.htm) There is also Lollio (http://www.tretre.it/menu/accademia-del ... to-lollio/):
Che vuol dir altro il Bagatella, e'l Matto,
Se non ch'ei fusse un ciurmatore, e un barro?
Che significa altro la Papessa,
Il Carro, il Traditor, la Ruota, il Gobbo:
La Fortezza, la Stella, il Sol, la Luna,
E la Morte, e l'Inferno: e tutto il resto
Di questa bizaria girando l'esca,

And Cittolini (https://books.google.es/books?id=K50h72 ... to&f=false, find "matto" on p. 483). And Garzoni (http://www.tarock.info/garzoni.htm). There is also the poem of Pomeran (http://www.tretre.it/uploads/media/Pomeran.pdf).

(Paolo Giovio and Pietro Aretino are frequently reported as following the same order, but that is erroneous. For Giovio, see https://archive.org/stream/giornalestor ... t_djvu.txt, and find "tarocchi". For Aretino's Pasquinade see p. 46 at http://www.opal.unito.it/psixsite/Misce ... XII109.pdf); Carte Parlante is not online, but I have checked it thoroughly. Neither writer presents the tarocchi in any particular order.)

Given that the Fool was probably unnumbered at an early date, if one insisted on putting it in the sequence, it could thus be be either at the beginning or the end. The descriptor "cervel divino" given at the end of a sonnet of Ferrara (http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng) that goes roughly from top to bottom, skipping the "papi", suggests that the idea of the Fool equaling the divine would have been thought of at either end: we come from God and return to God.
Par che l’angel, la stella, il sol, la luna
Col mondo, et chi con lui di viver brama,
Odiano la beltà, che il ciel aduna
Nel viso altier de la signora Mama.
Forsi per esser tra le Dee queste una
Che lor spogli del ben, che ‘l valor ama,
O pur, per che ne morte, o ria fortuna
Dal fermo suo voler maj la richiama:
Però dee creder fermamente ognuno
Ch’un spirito malvagio habbia costei
Supposta solamente al Bagattino,
Per poter dire i buon tarocchi mej
Saran, s’avien ch’io giuochi, et questi uno
Vo trarre il Matto che ‘è cervel divino.

Because the angel, the star, the sun, the moon,
With the world, and the one who craves living,
Hate the beauty that the sky concentrates
In the proud face of the Lady Mama.
That from them is stripped of good, those who love valor,
Or maybe, because neither death nor bad fortune
Deters the firmness of her will:
But all must firmly believe
That a malevolent spirit has her,
Submitting only to the small Magician,
So that to be able to say the good tarots will be
Mine, I have to play, and this one card
I draw will be the Fool, which is the divine brain.
Here it seems to me that it might be that valor = fortitude, firmness of will = temperance, malevolent spirit = love; stripped of good = stripped of goods = old man. I am not sure where justice and the devil are. However there is a general progression downward.

The same idea, of the divine at zero, is also suggested by the "sei nullo" in the Sermones, (meaning "thus nothing" or "thus of zero value"), even if in this case it is placed at the end (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Sermones ... _Cum_Aliis), next to "the Father".

Second, Alain's positioning of the Fool at the end applies to even fewer of the C lists. in fact, besides the hin5 that Alain has found from the term "le petit" (as not only the small, but the smallest) and the rules of play (in which it must be played last for a "slam"), the three actual 16th century lists put the Fool first in the sequence: Susio (http://www.tarock.info/renier.htm), Alciati (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Alciato_on_the_Trumps, Piscina (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_2). Also the position of the card on the Cary Sheet has it next to the Bateleur, strongly suggesting that it was before the Bagat (https://tarotmeditations.files.wordpres ... sheet1.jpg). The writing on the Vieville Ace of Coins lists it next to the Bagat as well (http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards61.htm). Although neither the Cary Sheet nor Vieville gives us a definite order, they do group nearby cards together.

So I think we have to say that Alain's suggested groups are, relative to the Fool card, one of three historically relevant ways of seeing its place in the sequence: as beginning, end, and outside the sequence entirely. That does not detract from the significance of his way of dividing the sequence, however, which unequivocally elevates the card. All are valid ways of referring to the divine, and the Fool has been reduced to zero, la bagatella (a trivial thing, as opposed to the more ambiguous El Bagatella), long enough.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - 22 Atouts and 220 emblems

#25
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Aparte

The following correlation is, from my point of view, at the least, an indirect confirmation of the necessity of counting 22 Atouts and not 21+ 0 ...

The mathematical relation between the 4 decades and the 22 Atouts.

22 Atouts
and
220 emblems in the 4 numerical suits

[1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55) X 4] = 220
Which, together with the old rule about two suits running 1-10 and two 10-1, allows them to be neatly triangulated into a 22x10 table, as for example:

Image


Thus, for example, under XXI the column has 10 d's = 10 of Deniers, 10 d's also in row Malkuth/Earth. Table can be varied re: order of suits and order of Fool/trumps (e.g., first place, 21 st or 22nd, according to your own preferences).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#26
mikeh wrote: (Paolo Giovio and Pietro Aretino are frequently reported as following the same order, but that is erroneous. For Giovio, see https://archive.org/stream/giornalestor ... t_djvu.txt, and find "tarocchi". For Aretino's Pasquinade see p. 46 at http://www.opal.unito.it/psixsite/Misce ... XII109.pdf);
Ah, thanks for confirming that, I had been perusing them trying to check where they are ordered as such and unable to find any such ordering of them.
Carte Parlante is not online, but I have checked it thoroughly. Neither writer presents the tarocchi in any particular order.)
There is a 1650 edition at google books:

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=q6 ... &q&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#27
Hi Mikeh.

I already had excluded one of the three groups.
Your analysis shows that the second group should also be excluded.

So, the sequence with the Math at omega and Bagat at Alpha stands for one group.

Final agreement on this point?


Nota bene

Reminder :

"This game refers to Petrarca’s Triumphi (hence “triumphs” from Italian “trionfi”), in
which the fourteenth century poet described six principal forces which govern men and
assigned a hierarchical value to each. Romanesque numerology saw in the number Six
"the superhuman one, the power", as the number related to the days of biblical creation.
First comes Love (Instinctual), which corresponds to a juvenile phase, vanquished by
Shame [Pudicizia] (Chastity, Reason), a subsequent phase of mature calmness, after
which follows Death, signifying the transitoriness of terrestrial things. It is in turn,
vanquished nevertheless by Fame, victorious over death in posterity’s memory, but over
it Time triumphs, which is overcome finally by the Triumph of Eternity, which frees
humans from the flow of the becoming. and sets them in the kingdom of eternity.
The number of the Triumphal cards at the beginning was perhaps composed of 8
allegories, later by 14 and 16, then was finally stabilized at 22, the number that in its
Christian mystical meaning represents the introduction to the wisdom and the divine
teachings engraved in humanity
. Such a path, that conveys a progressive adaptation of
these "playing cards" to a numeology of a religious character, was probably adopted to
avoid the condemnation of the Church that was continually hurled against card games
that were considered gambling.
About the number 22 of the Triumphs, here is how Origen considers this number: “In
the order of numbers, each single number contains a certain force and power over
things. Of this power and force the Creator of universe made use, in some instances for
the constitution of the universe itself, in others to express the nature of each thing as it
appears to us. It follows, then, based on the Scriptures, that one must observe and derive
those aspects that belong to the numbers themselves. And in truth it ought not to be
ignored that the books of the Bible itself, as the Jews transmitted them, are twenty-two,
also equal to the number of Hebrew letters, and this not without reason. As in fact,
twenty-two letters seem to be the introduction to the wisdom and doctrine engraved
iwith these figures in human beings, so these twenty two books of Scripture also
constitute the foundation and the introduction to the wisdom of God and the knowledge
of the world” (Select in Ps I - PG 12, 1084). In other words, Origen, referring to these 22
inspired books of the Bible, perceives in the twenty-two letters that comprise the
Hebrew alphabet an introduction to the wisdom and divine teachings imprinted in
humanity (A. Quacquarelli, s.v. Numeri, in DPAC, pages 2447-2448).

8
Medieval theology assigns to the universe a precise order, formed by a symbolic
staircase rising from the earth to the sky: from the top of the stairs God, the First Cause,
governs the world, without getting directly involved, but operating “ex gradibus” i.e.
through an uninterrupted series of intermediaries. In this way his divine power is
transmitted down to the lower creatures, even to the humblest mendicant. Read from
below upwards, the staircase teaches that humans can gradually rise in the spiritual
order, climbing slowly toward the summits of the bonum, verum and nobile, and by
science and virtue advance nearer to God.
From the first known list of Triumphs of the beginning of the 16th century, it is evident
that it was a game. with an ethical background The Magician shows a sinful man who
has been provided with both temporal guides, the Emperor and Empress, and spiritual
guides, the Pope and Popess (i.e. Faith). Human instincts themselves must be mitigated
by the virtues: Love by Temperance, and the desire for power, or rather the Chariot, by
Strength (the Christian virtue Fortitude). The Wheel of Fortune teaches us that success
is ephemeral and that even powerful persons are destined to become dust. The Hermit
who follows the Wheel represents Time, to which all beings are subject, and the
necessity for each person to meditate on the real value of existence, while the Hanged
Man (The Traitor) depicts the danger of falling into temptation and sin before the arrival
of physical Death.
Even the afterlife is represented according to the typical medieval idea: Hell, and thus
the Devil, stands at the centre of the earth, while the celestial spheres are above the
earth. According to the Aristotelian vision of the cosmos, the terrestrial sphere is
surrounded by celestial fires which in the tarots are represented as lightning striking a
Tower. The planetary spheres are synthesized in three main planets: Venus (the preeminent
Star), the Moon, and the Sun. The highest sphere is the Empyrean, the seat of
the angels who will be summoned to awaken the dead from their tombs at the Last
Judgement - when divine Justice will triumph in weighing the souls and dividing the
good from the evil. Highest of all is the World, or "the Holy Father", as an anonymous
Dominican commentator on the tarots wrote at the end of the 15th century.The same
author places the Fool after the World, as if to illustrate his complete alienation from all
rules and teachings, since,because lacking reason, he was not able to understand the
revealed truths."


http://letarot.it/cgi-bin/pages/mostre/ ... arovan.pdf
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#28
mikeh wrote:IThere is also the poem of Pomeran (http://www.tretre.it/uploads/media/Pomeran.pdf).

(Paolo Giovio and Pietro Aretino are frequently reported as following the same order, but that is erroneous...
Mondo (The World) = Andriana Cornera
Giustitia (Justice) = ‘La bella’ Barbarigo
Angelo (The Angel) = Isabella Grimani
Sole (The Sun) = Laureta Tron
Luna (The Moon) = Grazimana
Stella (The Star) = Isabetta Sanuto
Foco (Fire) = Bianca Contarini
Diauolo (The Devil) = Laura Bollani
Morte (Death) = Paula Capello
Traditore (The Traitor) = Mocenigo
Tempo (Time) = Maria Leone
Rota (The Wheel [of Fortune]) = Paola Mora
Fortezza (Fortitude) = Paula Querini
Amore (Love) = Orsina Foscholeta
Carro Triomphale (The Chariot) = Maria Lauredan
Temperanza (Temperance) = Bianca Zeno
Papa (The Pope) = ‘Famos’ Albertha
Imperatore (The Emperor) = Benedetta Pisani
Papessa (The Popess) = Marieta Zanni
Imperatrice (The Empress) = Paschalig
Bagattela (The Juggler) = Paula Valier
Matto (The Fool) = Nicolo Cornera


According to Bassani many of the Ladies attached to these cards (or at least, Ladies with the same names) were also used in the poem Temple of Love (Tempio di amore) by Niccolò Franco, published by Francesco Marcolini da Forlì while he was in Venice in 1536. The following year he became secretary to Pietro Aretino.

Carte da gioco e letteratura tra Quattrocento e Ottocento (1997) by Lucia Nadin Bassan, p.91-98

Names mentioned in both poems:

Andriana Cornaro
Isabetta Barbarico
Isabella Grimani
Laura Tron
Gracimana Giani
Bianca Contarini
Isabetta Mocenico
Paula Moro
Paula Quirini
Orsa Foscolo
Maria Lauredana
Marina Alberti
Maria Giane (Zane?)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - 22 Atouts and 220 emblems

#29
SteveM wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Aparte

The following correlation is, from my point of view, at the least, an indirect confirmation of the necessity of counting 22 Atouts and not 21+ 0 ...

The mathematical relation between the 4 decades and the 22 Atouts.

22 Atouts
and
220 emblems in the 4 numerical suits

[1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55) X 4] = 220
Which, together with the old rule about two suits running 1-10 and two 10-1, allows them to be neatly triangulated into a 22x10 table, as for example:

Image


Thus, for example, under XXI the column has 10 d's = 10 of Deniers, 10 d's also in row Malkuth/Earth. Table can be varied re: order of suits and order of Fool/trumps (e.g., first place, 21 st or 22nd, according to your own preferences).

Hi Steve

Yes for the triangulation and the two suits from 1 to 10 and from 10 to 1.

But, it is un-necessary, from my point of view, to caracterize the pips as astrological or qabbalistics numbers.
I understand these interpretations but they may be many other such as their game value for example....

What we can see nevertheless is that , mathematicaly, the pips are correalate to the Atouts.

10+1+10+1
2+9+2+9
3+8+3+8
4+7+4+7
5+6+5+6
6+5+5+6
7+4+7+4
8+3+8+3
9+1+9+1
10+1+10+1
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#30
SteveM wrote:
Mondo (The World) = Andriana Cornera
Giustitia (Justice) = ‘La bella’ Barbarigo
Angelo (The Angel) = Isabella Grimani
Sole (The Sun) = Laureta Tron
Luna (The Moon) = Grazimana
Stella (The Star) = Isabetta Sanuto
Foco (Fire) = Bianca Contarini
Diauolo (The Devil) = Laura Bollani
Morte (Death) = Paula Capello
Traditore (The Traitor) = Mocenigo
Tempo (Time) = Maria Leone
Rota (The Wheel [of Fortune]) = Paola Mora
Fortezza (Fortitude) = Paula Querini
Amore (Love) = Orsina Foscholeta
Carro Triomphale (The Chariot) = Maria Lauredan
Temperanza (Temperance) = Bianca Zeno
Papa (The Pope) = ‘Famos’ Albertha
Imperatore (The Emperor) = Benedetta Pisani
Papessa (The Popess) = Marieta Zanni
Imperatrice (The Empress) = Paschalig
Bagattela (The Juggler) = Paula Valier
Matto (The Fool) = Nicolo Cornera
Some of these also appear in another, anonymous, Capitolo on some famous Venetian Ladies found in a collection of the Venetian Chronicler Stefano Magno (b.circa 1499 – d. 14 October 1572, or 1490 - 1557 according to another source) :

Isabeta Diedo – whose beauty flies through the world
Paola Venier – whose cheerful spirit lifts and whose insignia is impartial justice
Isabetta Barbarigo – with an angel signifying her goodness
Cecilia Dandolo – the fame of her beauty signified by the sun
Andriana Pesaro – her modesty, coldness and chastity denoted by the moon
Lucretia Venier – is wise and guarded by her star along the path of virtue
Elena Zane – has an inner spark that will kindle conjugal love
Maria Caravello – bear the devil on her crown as if to say “I am the enemy of the virtuous”
little Quirini – who is death to amorous leanings
Marieta Capello – who is hardened against frivolous love
Lucieta Soranza – who shows that time ruins beauty
Barozzi –
Marina Emo –
Bianca Grimani – the enemy of vice, who waged war on love with an arrow caught in her lap
Laureta Foscari – who has stolen beauty from others but is inhuman in love
Maria Lion – who is neither merciful nor cruel
Maria da Leze – who is so devout she is with the pope
Isabeta Venier – who is so ardent and willing in love she almost keeps up with her partner, and saves others
Marieta Bibbiena – who because of her papessa believes herself to be to others as the sea is to a river
Hieronima Venier – has eternal honor and title of empress
Helena Zen – whose burning eyes inspires men who are followers of love
Laura Cocco – who fears no word or infamy

The 8th Capitolo “capitolo de alcune done famose di veneta” (fols 49r-53r), Canonical Ital. 36, Bodleian. c. 1520’s

“A review of the women described in the capitolo shows them to have been the wives of leading patricians of Magno’s day, with many of whom he had personal connections including through compagnie della calza, and many of whom had demonstrable or possible connections with Caravello incident..." [the tarring of leading citizens houses during Mardi Gras 1521, as an act of revenge on some people who refused an invitation to a party held by Marco Grimadi.]

For details of this capitolo, and identification and relationships of some of these women, and the Caravello incident, see Commerce, Peace, and the Arts in Renaissance Venice by Linda L. Carroll.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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