I gave a "viewtopic.address" to a thread ... there you find:mikeh wrote:Huck referred us toWhat book is that? What was I supposed to learn from it? All I could tell was that the relevant games were forbidden, or something, in 1470 something.
Also you find it, if you simply go to the begin of the book.Bibliofilia; recull d'estudis, observacions, comentaris y noticies sobre llibres en general y sobre qüestions de llengua y literatura catalanes en particular. Publicat per R. Miquel y Planas
https://archive.org/stream/bibliofiliar ... 7/mode/2up
Also you find it at the top of the given page. It was made in Barcelona1915-20.
The language should be Catalan. One can read a good part of it with the general mix of languages, that we already are accustomed to, naturally not with 100% security.
Here a part of the text:
The snippets contains roman numbers, and these should contain the years (1313-1322), further they contain another number after a "cartes" and this should contain the reference to an unknown source, where one can find the handwritten note.
The often noted word "Tafuraria" is explained here:
"DuCange, Glossarium mediae et infimae latinitatis (1883-7)
TAFURIA, Tafuraria, Species tributi, aut pensitationis, apud Catalanos. Petrus II. Rex Aragon. in Charta ann. 1283. pro Libertatibus Catalaniae: Statuimus, quod Tafuraria tollatur perpetuo, et eam revocamus. In titulo Capituli scribitur Tafuria. Fori Arag. lib. 1. tit. Privilegium generale Regni Arag.: Aquello mesmo de las Tafurerias, que sian deffeytas (show full text)
show full text leads to:
A sort of law collection to games, it seems. Likely the mentioned "unknown source".DuCange, Glossarium mediae et infimae latinitatis (1883-7): TAFURIA
TAFURIA, Tafuraria, Species tributi, aut pensitationis, apud Catalanos. Petrus II. Rex Aragon. in Charta ann. 1283. pro Libertatibus Catalaniae: Statuimus, quod Tafuraria tollatur perpetuo, et eam revocamus. In titulo Capituli scribitur Tafuria. Fori Arag. lib. 1. tit. Privilegium generale Regni Arag.: Aquello mesmo de las Tafurerias, que sian deffeytas a todos tiempos. Exstat aliud Statutum Ferdinandi I. Regis, quo eadem Tafureria exstinguitur et aufertur. Sebastianus Cobarruvias: Tahur, el que continua mucho el juego; que si se repite Tahur, Tahur, dize hurtar, porque muchos de Tahures dan en ladrones, quando non tienen que jugar. La Ley 6. tit. 14. part. 7. dize assi en confirmacion desto: E a todo home deue asmar, que los Tahures, e los bellacos usando la trahirfreria, por fuerça, conviene que sean ladrones, e homes de mala vita. La Ley 8. tit. 16. part. 3. llama a estos Tafures, y los cuenta entre los infames y sera bien que se vea. La Ley final tit. 5. part. 2. donde se afea mucho el juego que passa de conversacion y entreteniemento, y como particularmente deven huyr deste vicio los Principes y grandes Senores. Lusitanis Tafularia, est alea: quomodo etiam Tafureria apud Raymundum Montanerium cap. 237. et in Foris Aragonensibus, apud Michaëlem del Molino in Repertorio Fororum Aragon. V. Ludus. Rursum Hispanis Tafuria, vel Tafurea, est navis hippegus, para passar los cavallos, ut habet Antonius Nebrissensis.
What I wanted to show: There are a lot of Grescha and Riffa documents, not only one, and these have indeed a very old date.
The oldest, that I see at this place, is:
The name Grescha and Riffa are written as Graescha and Rifa in 1304, beside some other game names.
My comments and descriptions in red:Huck wrote,Can you say on what grounds they discarded grescha as a card game? I cannot sight-read the German, and it isn't in OCR format to run through Google Translate. (So far, for me, there aren't enough hours in the day to do all the translating I need to do.)Rosenfeld and others discarded grescha and riffa as dice games, not as cards.
Bidev seems to have been a man, who offered alternative possibilities. Kopp wrote, that Bidev had not only one theory about the origin of the cards, but various. Rosenfeld is often rather fixed on the idea to crash the theory and arguments of others. His arguments are in this case "too short and too simple", I would say. Nonetheless, Spanish researches took a draw-back from the older speculation, possibly cause of good and better reasons. I remember to have read from a document from 1327, in which it more or less was clear, that Gresca and Riffa were indeed dice games. I don't remember the place of this information.
What other note?So this would be a second reference to playing cards in Barcelona 1310, independent of the other note.
In the research thread, a Spanish wikipedia entry with a "1310" had the importance to raise my curiosity. This was the first note .
Also, in the Playing Card article you refer to (reproduced by Ross at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=648&p=9651&hilit=weberpals#p9674), the reference to the man who died in 1310 seems to be in the same book that makes Maimonides talk about cards. If so, it is indeed "too anachronistic", as Ross puts it, to be trusted. If he gave a quote in Hebrew, with a reference to a particular Risponsa, that would have been more believable. However it is still useful as another example of what someone thought, coincidentally close to Bidev's 1322.[/quote]
Well, this might be, that this is just another case of interpolation. But another Marotte of general playing card research it is to take everything, what leads to older times than 1377 as "wrong per se", although the existence of the John of Rheinfelden text in 1377 (you yourself after some examination of the facts noted how thin this argument about 1429 is) clearly makes it necessary to think of a production of cards long before this date, naturally in much smaller dimensions than "after 1377", but nonetheless a historical "must have been somewhere".
"Il Castello di Tarocchi" reproduced 5 pictures of the deck fragment (as I was told, there are 15 or 20 cards of it) at p. 38-39. In the Forum here the finding was discussed variously, keywords "Schedel", "Weltchronik", "world chronicle", "1493 etc."Thanks for dredging up the domino card of 1493. I didn't have time or patience to look for it. The top part of the card looks like something straight out of the Nuremberg Chronicle. Maybe it is.
"Dice results" (somehow a clear relative to Domino) naturally belonged to the repertoire of the lot books. And we haven't a really good overview about all those lot books, which once had been.