Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#41
Hi mikeh!

It is not so much about the workshop the "cards" were made in because they (the cards) were not thought up there. I try to explain throughout the "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" thread that the source for the "content" (for what the "cards" are only a new "vessel") lies beyond Christianity.

The Visconti Tarots that you mention were not of perfect structure because Filippo was mostly self-educated in alchemy and geomantics (> where the 16 gods stem from) and he worked with what Ottone took over from the "dead saracen" - a "bestia" (Biscione) that he swore allegiance to with the words that became the Visconti motto: >> Vipereos mores non violabo << (I will not violate the Snake's uses > mores is translated here as "uses" but can also be: custom - tradition - commandment - and some other) when he was Archbishop of Milan.

Somewhere in the "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" I mention that this was similar to the Negroli name change - an announcement to the world and those who could READ that message that HE > Ottone and his house from that moment when the Biscione emerged in Milan would never oppose the Great Serpent.
I mentioned that the dead Saracen in Ottone's story is a symbol for a "dead Barakah" (and I said that because you won't find a SERPENT in Saracenic "heraldry" especially not on a shield!) just like the one Gurdjieff was blessed with. That means a personal power to accomplish spiritual doings that can NOT be transferred to disciples (and so is DEAD).
You can read about such things in Sufic comments on the worthlessness of G's 4th WAY.
The TOOL he received instead is alive and well and was in the Biscione's entrails but could not be elevated to LIFE - until the teachers came to Filippo's court.

When the teachers finally came they corrected and completed Filippo's dilettantism and the fruit is the subject of this topic. So whatever other versions exist - THIS - the PMB - is the hallmark of Tarot.

Funny though that you should mention the "Cary-Yale" because just today I wrote an e-mail concerning that matter to an acquaintance from which I will quote here to clear some of my POVs:

>> (...) You spoke about about the horrific 5 x 14 structure in more detail- and yes I know that this is Huck's favorite model too.

It has some disqualifying flaws though:

You mention the d'Este family (1557!) - 100 and more years after Filippo is assumed to have his "cards" made.
The “Visconti di Modrone” is assumed to be commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti – Duke of Milan – between 1441 and 1447.
The so-called "virtues" there are an educated mis-reading of a former interpretation Filippo made when he was working with alchemy and geomancy on his own and alone before he got the teachers assigned.

http://www.darktarot.com/the_oldest_tarot_deck.php

The WORLD - that would be 1 of your assumed later added "replacement cards" - is in existence there too - before the 22 got (in your opinion) completed.
When you look at the "pedestal" of the "Emperor" and the "Empress" you will find a similar 1 beneath the feet of the mis-read "FAITH" what makes her another version of The POPESS - just like the later 1 on the PMB "cards". Why that should make her 1 of the IIII guardians you can see on TH:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044&start=70

Another mis-reading is the "CHARITY". If you would know about the source of the 16 gods who are the ancient 16 geomantic figures (quite well known to Filippo and other alchemists) as I pointed out in the thread on TH several times you would know that the later "TEMPERANCE" with her 2 vessels is about SOBRIETY in every meaning of the word and depicts a virgin and so the sign PUELLA. If you had gone to the sources I linked you would know that already.

Filippo had just dreamed her to mature (what is not possible because HER being a SYMBOL) and have conceived a child who she is now nourishing in her lap with her milk.
The symbol for SOBRIETY is still there in her right hand as the emptied bottle - just like the emptied WINE CARAFE in the same right hand of the virgin. You may know that through Renaissance it was the custom to spice wine with all sorts of things and so the WINE CARAFE had like a modern TEA pot an inbuilt "strainer" at the bottom of the "lip" to hold the spices back. The WATER instead could be served in an open jar - like the one the virgin carries in her left hand - her symbol for SOBRIETY.

"HOPE" is another "learned" mis-reading. Of the later STAR. She looks in the same direction and the LIGHT appears at the same place. She PRAYS for a CHILD. And the "STAR" has already conceived one - judging from her caring posture that is quite typical for "bearing" women.

So you see: the later assumed additions were already present in 1442. (...) <<

And it's not about "caliper" alone. When you look at the "Cary-Yale" it is quite obvious that those "cards" would not survive 1 game at a table where they had to be SHUFFLED and PUSHED around.

For me I do not need such confirmations from other curators. This exercise was only meant as an example that even the most fundamental assumptions about Tarot must be questioned when you want to get a grip on that matter.
It would be nice though still when someone would provide such data - that should motivate others to look for themselves too.

Have a plentiful time

Adrian

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#42
You mention the d'Este family (1557!) - 100 and more years after Filippo is assumed to have his "cards" made.
The “Visconti di Modrone” is assumed to be commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti – Duke of Milan – between 1441 and 1447.
???????? 1557 ... something looks like a rather serious error.

A rather important Ferrarese document is from !!!!! 1457, not from 1557 and not 100 years after Filippo Maria.
http://trionfi.com/0/e/16/
2 decks with 70 cards each were produced in Ferrara
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#44
Adrian Goldwetter wrote:Yes I know Huck - but HE wrote that date and I made the "!" behind it. He should clear that up in a few days.

Thanks for your concern

Adrian
I don't see, where MikeH wrote 1557 or 1457 in this thread. Anyway, if you know about the early Ferrarese documents, then it doesn't interest me ....

btw. do you know about Theodelinda and her water-monster?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodelinda
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#45
With HE I meant my acquaintance to whom I wrote that e-mail from which I quoted in my reply to mikeh.
mikeh is not to blame for the date.

I went to your link and fond nothing about a water-monster.

I know that Jane Campbell Hutchison mentioned the possibility that Albrecht Dürer might have revered to a supposed adventure of Theodelinda in his "Das Meerwunder" engraving that he did nearly a 1000 years after that legendary happening. Other art historians think otherwise - and my advice - if you are keen to know more about the HORNED Sea-monster pictured there and the why and how and who would be to consult the "Pillar of the Boatmen" in Paris and "Cernunnos". But why would you bring that up here were caliper is key and the PMB.

The monster theme should much more belong in the "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" topic where we already had the Delphin(ios) - Python (male & female) - Delphi - Oracle - Omphalos and much more very close to the subject there especially the Omphalos and you stayed calm - just once as far as I remember denying Apollon to be part of the matter.

Sure - the monster with T is another persona for that drama - but so degraded and far away in time with a very scarce source situation totally away from tarot... so what about her - or better not because there is no original story there.

Adrian

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#46
Adrian Goldwetter wrote:With HE I meant my acquaintance to whom I wrote that e-mail from which I quoted in my reply to mikeh.
mikeh is not to blame for the date.
Okay, I understand.
I went to your link and fond nothing about a water-monster.
... right, it's just, that you see, that a Theodelinda existed once.

http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz82430.html
"Theodelindens Name ward auch willkürlich mit einer grotesken Sage verknüpft, die auf dem Boden merovingischer Ueberlieferungen erwachsen ist: am Strande wandelnd, wird die Königin von einem Meerungethüm überfallen und bezwungen; der Sohn, den sie später zur Welt bringt, trägt die Spuren seiner unmenschlichen Abkunft. Die uralte Sage ist überliefert in Boccaccio´s Decamerone III, 2, in dem Gedichte „Das Meerwunder“ im Heldenbuche Caspar´s von der Roen, sowie in einem Meisterliede und einem Spruchgedichte des Hans Sachs."


So somewhere existed this strange mythological story.
I know that Jane Campbell Hutchison mentioned the possibility that Albrecht Dürer might have revered to a supposed adventure of Theodelinda in his "Das Meerwunder" engraving that he did nearly a 1000 years after that legendary happening. Other art historians think otherwise - and my advice - if you are keen to know more about the HORNED Sea-monster pictured there and the why and how and who would be to consult the "Pillar of the Boatmen" in Paris and "Cernunnos". But why would you bring that up here were caliper is key and the PMB.
I guess it's not about the thickness of the PMB-cards, but you talked also about a helmet with viper ... another mythological story, and you talked about the Cary-Yale.

...
Sure - the monster with T is another persona for that drama - but so degraded and far away in time with a very scarce source situation totally away from tarot... so what about her - or better not because there is no original story there.
It's not so far, as one may think.

In c. 1402 Michelino da Besozzo decorated an ancestor list of the Visconti.
http://trionfi.com/visconti-genealogy
... at position 36 is "36. Agistulfus Rex"

Agistulfus Rex is likely "= Agilulf" in the German biography.

From an earlier discussion ...
Garibald ist the first known duke of Bavaria, other imporatant forces are the Franken (Merowinger) and the Langobarden. Theudelinde (=Teodolinda) is a marriage object, first offered to the Merowinger, but then going to the Longobards, marrying 2 Langobardian kings.
Some parts are of legendary character, so Authari, her first husband, made disguised a journey to the Bavarian to see his new bride with own eyes. Teodolinda recognizes him, but he stays hidden to the others. When he left the country, something very special happens ...

"Als Th. dies erröthend ihrer Kammerfrau erzählt, meint diese, der vermeinte Gesandte könne kein anderer sein als ihr Verlobter.
Mit einem bairischen Ehrengeleite ziehen dann die Langobarden heim, an der bairisch-italienischen Grenze aber hebt sich Authari, so hoch er kann, im Sattel und schleudert seine Streitaxt wuchtig in einen Baum, indem er ausruft: Solche Hiebe führt Authari! Da erkennen auch die bairischen Herren, daß er der Langobardenkönig selber sei."

.. "he throws an axe in a tree" and so he is recognized as Authari.

This story we do know somehow from the Sforza legend, where also "an axe" (actually more the axe of a farmer) "was thrown" (in oracular meaning) "in a tree" and Muzio Attendolo took up his way to become a famous condottiero.

....

Now Teodolinda married Authari, but Authari didn't live long (1 year later dead). So she married a second Langobard, who became king by her own choice. This was the right one [Agistulf], as he endured some time longer (till 615).
Teodolinda was queen from 590 - 628, 38 years, in peaceful manner and "good for the church".
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p= ... ost1999315

In the case, that "somehow" a sea monster was involved, the conclusion is near, that the true sea monster also had the name Agistulfus Rex or "Agilulf".

The place for the veneration of Theodelinda was Monza ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monza
... and Monza is NOT close to the sea, but close to the river Lambro ...

Image


... and somehow the kingdom of Lombardy developed from it.
Rivers have a naturally similarity to vipers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Lombards

In 1442/1443 our Filippo Maria Visconti developed a larger interest in the city of Monza. The Zavattari brothers got a commission (frescoes in a church in Monza). Possibly ... so assume some researchers ... the Zavattari brothers got also the commission for the Cary-Yale Tarocchi.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#47
The Caspar von der Roen version of the "Meerwunder" is here ...

Deutsche Dichtungen Des Mittelalters in Vollständigen Auszügen und Bearbeitungen, Volume 2
Friedrich Wilhelm Genthe
G. Reichardt, 1841 - German poetry
https://books.google.de/books?id=8iYHAA ... en&f=false

Caspar von der Roen ...
http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz40089.html
... wrote this 1472 in a German dialect spoken around Nuremberg, around 1474 Caspar was immatriculated in Leipzig. The commissioner for the work was Balthasar, duke of Mecklenburg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar ... ecklenburg

The Meerwunder poem is only a shortened version of an unknown earlier text, as I've read.

The story takes place at "Luneria" (chapter 2) near the sea, and a virgin is molested by a "Meerwunder" (monster, the description doesn't point to a viper-similar; feet like a bat, skin like a bear, eyes like a falcon) with consequences (a bad son). A king from "Lampart" (chapter 8) solves the problem and takes the bad son as his son and the earlier virgin to his wife. Another good son is born. In the follow-up the bad son attacks his family, after long fights he is killed and the crisis ends.

"Luneria" leads likely only to "some context to the moon", but "Lampart" meets the river name "Lambro" in Monza and the connected "Longobards" or "Lombards" (Latin "Langobardi", not Longobardi).
The Lombards or Longobards (Latin: Langobardī, Italian Longobardi [loŋɡoˈbardi]), were a Germanic people who ruled Italy from 568 to 774.

The Lombard historian Paul the Deacon wrote in the Historia Langobardorum that the Lombards descended from a small tribe called the Winnili[1] who dwelt in southern Scandinavia[2] (Scadanan) before migrating to seek new lands. In the 1st century AD, they formed part of the Suebi, in northwestern Germany. By the end of the 5th century, they had moved into the area roughly coinciding with modern Austria north of the Danube river, where they subdued the Heruls and later fought frequent wars with the Gepids. The Lombard king Alboin eventually destroyed the Gepids in 567.

Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely devastated after the long Gothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there. The Lombards were joined by numerous Saxons, Heruls, Gepids, Bulgars, Thuringians, and Ostrogoths, and their invasion of Italy was almost unopposed. By late 569 they had conquered all north of Italy and the principal cities north of the Po River except Pavia, which fell in 572.
Prokop described the Gothic War, in which Mediolanum (Milan) was conquered in 539 and 300.000 (!) inhabitants are said to have been killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan
With the Edict of Milan of 313, Emperor Constantine I guaranteed freedom of religion for Christians.[27] After the city [Milan] was besieged by the Visigoths in 402, the imperial residence was moved to the more strategic city of Ravenna. In 452, the Huns overran the city. In 539, the Ostrogoths conquered and destroyed Milan during the Gothic War against Byzantine Emperor Justinian I. In the summer of 569, a Teutonic tribe, the Lombards (from which the name of the Italian region Lombardy derives), conquered Milan, overpowering the small Byzantine army left for its defence. Some Roman structures remained in use in Milan under Lombard rule.
Monza became then capital ...
Theodelinda, daughter of Garibald I of Bavaria and wife of the Lombard king Authari (and later of king Agilulf), chose Monza as her summer residence. Here in 595 she founded an oraculum dedicated to St. John the Baptist. According to the legend, Theodelinda, asleep while her husband was hunting, saw a dove in a dream that told her: modo (Latin for "here") indicating that she should build the oraculum in that place, and the queen answered etiam, meaning "yes". According to this legend, the medieval name of Monza, "Modoetia", is derived from these two words. She also had a palace (the future Royal palace) built here.
An old Theodolinda symbol ...

Image

http://www.summagallicana.it/lessico/c/ ... olinda.htm

It's not a dove, but a hen with 7 chickens.

But doves appear in the Michelino deck together with other birds (turtle dove, phoenix, eagle).

The German biography of Theodolinda claims Merovingian influences for the sea monster story ... indeed there is this ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovech
There is little information about him in the later histories of the Franks. Gregory of Tours only names him once as the father of Childeric I while putting doubt on his descent from Chlodio. Many admit today that this formulation finds its explanation in a legend reported by Fredegar. The Chronicle of Fredegar interpolated on this reference by Gregory by adding Merovech was the son of the queen, Chlodio's wife; but his father was a sea-god, bistea Neptuni. Some researchers have noted that Merovech, the Frankish chieftain, may have been the namesake of a certain god or demigod honored by the Franks prior to their conversion to Christianity.

Clodio, the sometime putative father of Merovech, is said to have been defeated by Flavius Aëtius at Vicus Helena in Artois in 448. Ian Wood would therefore place his son somewhere in the second half of the fifth century.

It has been suggested Merovech refers to, or is reminiscent of, the Dutch river Merwede. Although this river was historically a main subsidiary of the Rhine, in modern times it is a tributary of the Rhine-Meus-Scheldt delta; the area where, according to Roman historians, the Salian Franks once dwelled.

Another theory considers this legend to be the creation of a mythological past needed to back up the fast-rising Frankish rule in Western Europe.


Chronicle of Fredegar, written 642 ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Fredegar
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#48
Since this thread seems to be dieing without purpose and Alta over at Aeclectic has just removed it (temporarily so far... ) for "inspection" and I'm waiting for an explanation right now I suppose I could go as well a little crazy with you here Huck!

So: be it!

Merovingians 1st.

You will find on my conclusive page of the Thread PDF that I already linked them to the BEES and so the honey-combs on the backs of the Jean Noblet Tarot and French heraldic history but did not go there further for obvious reasons.

So you ARE on the right track here that will guide you to...

...Rennes-le-Château...
...The Templars (not only the well known knights of that CHRISTIAN order)
...The Rudder (a very ancient secret order that influenced history until our days)
...The Prieuré (not only located at Sion)
...The Ouroboros
...Alchemy (all kinds)
...Free Masonry (all kinds)
...Islam
...Persia
...Sufism
...Jerusalem (Arabic)
...Christian Rosenkreutz
...

(not necessarily in that order and much more intriguing sources and obviously there is a LOT of chaff you'll have to deal with yourself but with time you'll develop a taste... )

So your thoughts on T brought you a long way - but further to HOME! Keep on.

MONSTERS (especially the WET kind!):

T's Meerwunder is a very young persona of an ever again occurring ancient theme since the 1st written reports by black headed people (that's what they called them THEMSELVES in contrast to the divine beings they lived heart to heart with (sometimes at least).

The first version of this Meerwunder was a goddess with very scarce mentioning in the accounts.
Only her name came onto us (whose spelling is still disputed) and NO picture or sculpture.
Only a symbol that could be described as a rectangular shape (a square maybe) and 3 crossed "arrows" in it in such a way that the arrows mark similar points that you see marked on the Goldschmidt "Falconer" "card's" WHEEL.
The same points you would access if you used a pair of compasses to DIVIDE a circle in 6 equal portions.

Both together: the square (or rectangle) and the division of the circle (and so CONTROL of The WORLD in ancient terms) make her the mother of ALL - because used together the square + circle = The GOLDEN Rectangle that is deemed since ancient times the KEY to LIFE itself and now it is known that even the Sumerians knew about this operation.

She is known to be kind in love and fierce when betrayed.
She IS magic. She is the Goddess of ALL WATER. Fresh & salt.
The LIFE-BLOOD of The WORLD.

This Goddess was in the first accounts that mention her as a mere shadow of her former power given the task to bear the new generation of gods. But WHO could have been the father when there was none?

She made him herself:
She caught the North-wind while dancing across nowhere and made - by rolling HIM between her hands (you may get the gist here!) - a SERPENT whose name (one of the many many... ) was OPHION and SHE goes by Eurynome what is of course Greek and a very much later assumption (foremost Robert Ranke Graves - not liked by everyone).

Nice story that ends with her return - that has not happened yet...

...but as it happens: today you would have the chance to meet her eye to eye (only when you promise of course to be mindful?) if you should be interested in a more personal meet&greet.

Call her name (that was changed to LE MONDE by some French believers of old) and SHE will appear dancing on a cloud... The North-wind - still caught by her charm(s) - veiling her partly and The CHILDREN to be in EGG-Shape around her waiting to be born before your eyes so that SHE can take reign in a NEW world.

Since you onetime called my "style" excessive I hope that you this time (when we both think about similar matters of concern) will take my above account serious. It is really meant that way.

Just as a heads up for you and an information why I would not suggest to go further down the Italic road to sea.
Of course you can find there a lot of folklore that is nice and even in context with my ramblings here - but as I said to mikeh: for ME it does not matter WHO MADE the "cards" - it is the DESIGN that matters.

Your chicks with their mother are a good find and this symbol is very much more like the Goddess in question - it is often that in such stories of old a king or in this case a queen gets "deified" with time and so T took over the symbols of former divine mothers.
The dove is more an attribute of a young sexual goddess in her prime (16-20).
So the artist (obviously also depending on his contract) would choose as a symbol what he deemed fit.

I hope all goes well around here and there - oh - and I forgot to mention that Eurynome was a MOON-Goddess too - all the while she was depicted often as a MERMAID. So funny those coincidences - right?

Adrian

P.S. The sibling on Aeclectic has just appeared again with comment from Alta. Now I'll have to go there and inspect what was taken. To be frank: after I've seen it now it looks better than before - all the ramblings are gone (mine too of course) and is much sharper now! Did you go there too sometime? Some things are different there!

Re: The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D

#49
As far I know, I didn't write about a general moon goddess stew called "Eintopf", but about the detail, that Filippo Maria Visconti showed an intensive interest in the figure of Theodolinda in the years 1442/1443, which led to a commission for the Zavattari brothers.

Image


Filippo Maria Visconti (with red hat) at the side of Theolinda.



"The combined scenes on the south wall depicts the following: the royal couple sets out on a hunt (scene No. 31); Theodolinda dreams that the dove of the Holy Spirit will show her the spot where she will build a church to John the Baptist (scene No. 32, left); the queen sets out to find the spot for the church (scene No. 32, right)."

A greater part of the scenes at:
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/z/zavattar/monza/
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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