Thank you Huck!

The following is a duplicate of the post I just made on Aeclectic in the sibling thread 1 Minute ago:

>> I will need some more details from Mr. Voelkle that we wrote him about and begged him for to handle the model of the PMB "cards" in the correct fashion this time.

When they are provided I will post the letters back and forth together with the actualized model.

In the meantime we could have a chat though about some topics that may (should) concern you... <<

Adrian

P.S. Considering that it took nearly 3 weeks for the 1st reply to arrive + 1 week for my work in the shades it should be about 4 weeks or 1 month when "[we] shall (...) meet again" !

http://shakespeare-navigators.com/macbeth/T11.html

Hopefully MORE people though

I thought, the question was easy, 3,8 mm or less or more.

The question was Huck - how thick every "card" on it's own is and how much the 74 would bring in thickness in total assembled and stacked in one pack to the table if it was actually possible to gather them all in one place and to do that to them.

Hence this will never be possible the model was created that shall be now actualized due to the correct measurements at The MORGAN (performed by Mr. Voelkle - the curator there).

Are we clear about that?

Adrian

Of course. So the cards have indeed a different size of thickness to some degree ... those in the Morgan?

Huck please have SOME patience!

Like I said there are some inconsistencies Mr. Voelkle already did mention in his reply that made him wonder.
That's some part of the hold up and all that will be presented to me will be presented to you too because it is in the best interest of the PMB "cards" and the believers around here and there that they could have been "played" in a conventional game (of cards - real cards like in poker or some other thing the devil invented to obscure the fine minds of unsuspecting fellows like you maybe... ).

You didn't care about their (PMB survivors) reputation for how MANY years?
Why would YOU make such a fuzz now? You could write your own letters - maybe to Mr. K (he should have some more "estimations" up his sleeve) - if you can not endure with us here in the cold harsh night of the advent of truth

Fear not friend! ALL will be told in time and on the proper occasion when the 3rd dimension finally will be revealed for GOOD!

Adrian

The question of the use of the cards (playing cards used as decorations) occasionally appeared in discussions about the tack holes. You're not the first with it.

106. (170.) (= unknown) Ein sehr grosses Kartenspiel; die l F. 9 Z. hohen, l F- 3 Z. breiten Blätter, 48 an der Zahl, sind gemalt, auf der Rückseite eines jeden ist das Wappen des Erzherzogs Ferdinand, im Holzschnitt, aufgeklebt. Die vier Farben repräsentieren verschiedene Fruchtbäume, die Figuren sind Affen.

http://trionfi.com/0/p/42/
https://books.google.de/books?id=Qq4AAA ... n.&f=false

That's from a description in the Ambras collection in 1855, as far I remember. "1 Fuß, 9 Zoll" these shall have been in their height (with the values for Fuss and Zoll of that time), likely more than 50 cm, so about 6 times the size of PMB.

What shall these have been good for? Perhaps for a theater play, in which cards were played and the onlookers should recognize, which sort of cards were played.

If you only just would READ what I posted all along here and there Huck - such question would be considered as RIDICULOUS - even by yourself. But you seem to be fine with "condensing" information that "doesn't interest" you even BEFORE READING such despicable issues. So: what can "I" do? Seems that is NOT the correct question! It's your turn if you want to KNOW dearly WHAT this is about. I won't write it again - as you can possibly imagine. Maybe you should try READING this time before asking the same tiering questions all over and again and again with such few and scarce words that it frightens me sometimes to see what you have written now and HOW will I cope with such ignorance (I beg your forgiveness here - but I couldn't think of another word that would probably fit the bill my brain presents me with every time I open the horror of your bygone reply). Why don't you work with me? I'm really at a loss here my researching and interested and well meaning and well informed friend Huck who cares for all matters Tarot deeply - but not when a new (true) paradigm arrives? WHY?

Adrian

I will leave now and not come back here until it REALLY matters.

P.S. I must add this obviously because it could be (from your post I take that) that it escaped your attention that the topic of THIS thread are ONLY the PMB "cards" - no matter what atrocities there might have probably been elsewhere "created" around The WORLD in the chambers of dimwits or whatever YOU may call them "creators". So stick with the TOPIC PLEASE! HUCK!!

At the risk of receiving a torrent of verbal abuse, I enter the discussion to ask a question. If it was answered already on the thread, I apologize for not seeing it. Why is it that you insist that only the PMB is at issue here? I can concede that these cards might not have been made for use in playing card games, but were special objects for display and admiration. But it would seem that this is even more true for other luxury packs from that time that show less damage than the first-artist (or artists) cards of the PMB, including packs done by the same Cremona workshop. Both the Cary-Yale and the Brera-Brambilla show less wear than the PMB.

I ask this for two reasons. First, the curators of these other packs may be more understanding of your request than the one of the Pierpont Morgan Library. In particular you might try the Beinecke Library at Yale. Also, some closer to where you live may even allow you to examine some actual cards of that period. I see no reason why luxury non-tarot packs should have been constructed any differently than tarot cards, especially the suit cards.

Second, there is currently an exhibition sponsored by the Metropolitan Museum in New York of luxury decks from the 15th and 16th centuries. The web-page for the PMB is at http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/li ... orza-tarot, with links to other pages about other decks. While I am sure the cards are under glass, by looking at them at an angle might clarify something. Unfortunately I am a continent away from New York. I have ordered the catalog. If it says anything of interest I will report it.

Thank you for posting and asking mikeh!

>> Why is it that you insist that only the PMB is at issue here? <<

Because as you can see the evidential data are not publicly availabe and very specific for every sole deck.
The caliper of the PMB "cards" (who were obviously none because they were not made for a card play at the TABLE.) was not known to anyone because nobody measured it!

The caliper alone (not only my assumption but the real measured and confirmed caliper) would have made it impossible to use them in any regular "card play fashion".

The caliper wasn't at ANY time questioned and all people who care about Tarot hear/read everywhere that the PMB "cards" were handmade and used for gaming at a table (like I hear even Mr. Voelkle assuming that the people at the fresco in the Palazzo Borromeo do just that: PLAY with those treasures in a game with cards AT a table).

I did point out in the other thread (the exact place I don't know at the moment - but I can look!) that those persons are OBSERVING the "cards" and the WALL to find the right "card" for the next correct place in the already achieved pattern on the WALL on the thereat painted kilim structure with the Tarotée-Crossings - the net of lines who are regarded the playground of the 16 gods.

They were made ONLY for ONE specific "game" at the WALL of a room that had to have AT LEAST 10 feet high walls - what could be found only in the house of a very rich person.
To get this "game" on a regular big table - say in a tavern - the Tarot de Marseille (for instance) was invented. It got evolved and the nails were not needed anymore (because of the structure of Tarot de Marseille card 1/3 - the ladder).

I tried to make some readers familiar with the IDEA that decoding today is a scientific thing with certain requirements that can be taught and studied to an end. This code we are talking about here (with the caliper too) was known originally only to the Visconti family (and later the Sforza) who were in partly posession of a "dead" fragment since Ottone declared to have captured a "beast" and swore >> I will not violate the Snake's uses << when he was Archbishop of Milan.

Most of those things I've written already and much more. It seems to be my fault though to have not made myself clear enough. Please ask some specific questions!

I explained already that to my knowledge only the handmade Visconti-Sforza "cards" bear that kilim structure that is mirrored in the Tarotée - THAT was the whole point of the Tarotée-Thread were we both met the first time and you did inform me after my astounded reply that you didn't care to read before posting and asking a specific non-substantiated question about them Tarotée.

I hope that I did answer your questions in your 2nd paragraph too with the above reply - and thank you for the info on the exibition. I'm looking foreward to your review too.
So I hope you understand that I really do not mean to be rude here - but what is the point of posting pictures and words when they are not used for following posts and/or replys.

I think I explained it here now in a sufficient way that and why the 74 survivors are the only possible subject for THIS topic. When they would be understood completely - and only then - it would be possible to COMPARE them with other "luxury cards (who - by the way LACK the substantial pattern to be READ - as an unbound book)". That was one of the premises of the Tarotée-Thread were we met and THIS thread (I hope that I did not forget that!) was announced as a prequel to that former thread.

Sorry to be late

Adrian

Adrian wrote

I explained already that to my knowledge only the handmade Visconti-Sforza "cards" bear that kilim structure that is mirrored in the Tarotée - THAT was the whole point of the Tarotée-Thread were we both met the first time and you did inform me after my astounded reply that you didn't care to read before posting and asking a specific non-substantiated question about them Tarotée.

Then according to you the Brera-Brambilla, the Cary-Yale, and the other decks made by the Bembo workshopwhose cards are based on the PMB should have the same attributes, i.e. thickness, necessitating a game where cards are pinned to a wall, because they were all made by the same workshop, that of Bonifacio Bembo, and probably most of them for the same extended family. Is that right? If so, you might ask the curators of those cards the same question you are asking the curator at the Morgan library.

p. s. That was an interesting story, about Ottone and the "beast".

This code we are talking about here (with the caliper too) was known originally only to the Visconti family (and later the Sforza) who were in partly posession of a "dead" fragment since Ottone declared to have captured a "beast" and swore >> I will not violate the Snake's uses << when he was Archbishop of Milan.

Where can I read more about this event, including the part about the "dead" fragment and its relation to the art of making cards? Perhaps you have already said; if so, then just give me a link to the posts, and if I have more questions I will just ask.