Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#1
I detected this ...
Rime Toscane, e Milanesi (1779)
dedicated to Anton-Luigi Recalcati
https://books.google.de/books?id=xf9jAA ... 22&f=false

This is from a poetical dialog between Simon and Valeria, by which Simon gets one page and Valeria the next, each with 24 lines poetry. At this page (94) Simon starts with Tarocch as the last word in the first line, and has then 21 times the ending "-occh" (so totally 22 "-occhs)", adding the last two lines not with "-occh" at the end, but with "-ari".
Valeria at page 93 before had 22 "-ell" endings plus 2 others (-ari), and at page 95 with 22 ending with "-ee", and Simon answers also with "-ee" (page 96; 22 times of course).

What this is good for, I don't know, I found it just amusing to note it. Not all pages of the dialog follow this scheme.

Image


... .-) ... ell - occh - ee - ee ... sounds like an intensive love affair

It seems, that the texts are from Domenico Balestrieri (1714-1780)
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Balestrieri
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#2
Huck wrote: ... .-) ... ell - occh - ee - ee ... sounds like an intensive love affair
Each page of the dialogue (24 lines per page) ends with the same refrain (24th line):

El mond l' è bell perchè l' è vari .

(The world is so beautiful because it is varied / so various?)

Valeria and Simone, p.90 to 106
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#3
Thanks, I overlooked that.

I felt remembered by the double "-ari" to the German word "larifari", which is based on Italian musical notes ...
" La, re, fa bezeichnet hier die Töne a, d und f, die zusammen den d-moll-Dreiklang bilden."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larifari
... which made me think, that it possibly isn't a poem, but a song. With a final refrain, as you said.

The poem has a title:

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#4
I don't follow it well enough* to tell if the trumps are alluded too; but I do recognise there are lines about St. Roch, who as a beggar/pilgrim with dog could have been suggested by the fool?

Chi tu sù , chi dà di gnocch,
E a chi , en tocca , ajutt san Rocch

I am making guesses here, but something along the lines of:

who lifts you up, giver of dumplings,* (gnocch == gnocchi)
he who, with a touch, St. Roch helps. (reading ajutt as ajutto == aid/help)

or helps St. Roch (Roch was cured by a dog who brought him bread and licked his wounds).

(????)

*potato dumplings (gnocchi) were traditionally prepared at court and in ordinary households in celebration of St. Roch festival.

The next two lines say something about toys/playthings, so maybe related to bagatelle?

SteveM

*It is in Milanese dialect, and difficult not only because of the dialect, but because of the idiomatic expressions. For example, "Col giontagh i penn coi occhi" means something like "who splices feathers with eyes", an idiomatic expression whose meaning is somewhat allusive! The comparable Italian expression is "rimetterci il mosto e l' acquerello" (something along the lines of "to lose the juice and the watercolor"), another difficult to understand idiomatic expression if taken literally, which means to ruin everything, lose everything in search of gain (being unable to distinguish between juice (grape wort/must) and colored water). The expression 'feathers with eyes' in context of tarot might make one wonder if it has been suggested by a tarot pack with Juno...
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#5
You get my admiration, that you at least understand something ... :-)

The poet hadn't it easy: First he had to find 21 words with occh-ending. ... then finding a way to make some senseful line between the different words. Counting the syllables for each line. And then - possibly - creating a connection to background (Tarot) pictures, best in a known Tarocchi card row, which should be recognizable by a reader. This might have been too much.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#6
SteveM wrote:I don't follow it well enough* to tell if the trumps are alluded too; but I do recognise there are lines about St. Roch, who as a beggar/pilgrim with dog could have been suggested by the fool?

Chi tu sù , chi dà di gnocch,
E a chi , en tocca , ajutt san Rocch

I am making guesses here, but something along the lines of:

who lifts you up, giver of dumplings,* (gnocch == gnocchi)
he who, with a touch, St. Roch helps. (reading ajutt as ajutto == aid/help)

or helps St. Roch (Roch was cured by a dog who brought him bread and licked his wounds).

(????)

*potato dumplings (gnocchi) were traditionally prepared at court and in ordinary households in celebration of St. Roch festival.
In Milanese/Lombard dialect gnocch means both dumpling (gnocco/gnochi) and fool (sciocco). At least one other (food) word in the poem (boiocch - turnip/swede) is also used figuratively for a fool.

re: gnocch / gnocchi, tarocch / tarocchi -- loss of final vowels was common in Milanese dialect -- as was a+l becoming o+l.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#7
Guardee el des in di tarocch,
La sort gira appress a pocch
Come i asp, come i biccocch,
In sto mond tutt pien de scocch.


In modern Italian:

Guarda il dieci nei tarocchi,
la sorte gira appresso a pochi
come gli aspi, come le bicocche,
in questo mondo tutto pieno di scocche.

English:

Look at Ten in Tarot,
fortune goes around few people,
as the spinners, as the reels,
in this world full of ups and downs.

I think the reference is only to the Wheel of Fortune (X).

Aspi “spinners” from the German:
http://www.etimo.it/?term=aspo&find=Cerca
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haspel

[Corrected on the basis of Steve's suggestions below]

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#8
marco wrote:Guardee el des in di tarocch,
La sort gira appress a pocch
Come i asp, come i biccocch,
In sto mond tutt pien de scocch.


In modern Italian:

Guarda il dieci nei tarocchi,
la sorte gira appresso a pochi
come gli aspi, come i bicocchi,
in questo mondo tutto pieno di sciocchi.

English:

Look at Ten in Tarot,
fortune goes around few people,
as the spinners, as the drunkards(?),
in this world that is full of idiots.

I think the reference is only to the Wheel of Fortune (X). “Biccocch” possibly means “stumbling people”, Here it could refer to drunkards.

Aspi “spinners” from the German:
http://www.etimo.it/?term=aspo&find=Cerca
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haspel

Bicoccare “to fall”:
https://books.google.it/books?id=nmxEAQ ... 22&f=false
Following your suggestion, I get that "falling" might be Tower (not drunkards). Then we have Fortune (sorte), World (mond) and Fool (sciocch) and "Falling" as recognized Tarot cards (with some suspicion, that "asp" might be also something).
Following the finishing points, I get this view of the poem:

Image


It's remarkable, that the only one-line-sentence (4th line) contains World and Fool, the last and the first of the Tarocchi row (somehow similar to Boiardo in the first of his 22 triumph poem parts).

World appears also in the repeating last 24th line.

Looking for the rhythm of the sentences we get ...
3 lines - 1 line - 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 3x2 - 2 - (line 23 + 24 repeating line)

Somehow 10+10+2 + (line 23 + 24 repeating line) ... I'm inspired by the first line with Tarocch ("observe the 10"; "Guardee el des ... ")

(3 + 1 + 3 + 3) + ( 2 + 2 + 3x2) + 2 + (line 23 + 24 repeating line)
Alternative possibility:
10+2+10+2
=
(3 + 1 + 3 + 3) + 2 + (2 + 3x2 + 2) + (line 23 + 24 repeating line)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Poem with ...-occh (1779 - Domenico Balestrieri)

#9
SteveM wrote:For example, "Col giontagh i penn coi occhi" means something like "who splices feathers with eyes", an idiomatic expression whose meaning is somewhat allusive! The comparable Italian expression is "rimetterci il mosto e l' acquerello" (something along the lines of "to lose the juice and the watercolor"), another difficult to understand idiomatic expression if taken literally, which means to ruin everything, lose everything in search of gain (being unable to distinguish between juice (grape wort/must) and colored water). The expression 'feathers with eyes' in context of tarot might make one wonder if it has been suggested by a tarot pack with Juno...

Another Milanese proverb is Viscor come on pèss - lively as a fish (said of someone in robust health).
(Vispo come un pesce.)

The comparison of something being lively like the fish is used in the two lines:

Quest l' è visquer, quell scimbiocch ; Come ' el pess ch' abbia avuu el cocch .

Scimbiocch is used figuratively here for 'foolish and worthless man', an inept person, a nothing, a futile man (lavaveci).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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