Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#11
Huck wrote,
Yes I'd changed mind ...
I'm sorry for misunderstanding; it's good to get that point cleared up. I had thought, on the other thread, that you were just presenting the 1510 idea as another possibility. I didn't realize you'd abandoned the 1461 idea, since you had argued so strongly for it before.

Huck wrote
The research about the dolphin gave the result, that the Dauphine dolphin looked similar to the Goldschmidt dolphin, but the dolphin of the Conte de Desana looked more similar (a clear "crowned dolphin").
I think you make too much of this. If the Goldschmidt pattern was still around, the Conte de Desana could just as well have gotten his emblem from the card as the other way around. Anyway, it is easy to put a crown on a dolphin. The similarity to the card is just one point among many, the others pointing to an earlier date.

Huck wrote,
Rene II had been in Italy himself at the begin of the 1480s, as leader in a military Venetian campaign (against Ferrara). It's more plausible, that he learned then about the game.
How secure is that? On the one hand, Wikipedia says of Rene II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9 ... f_Lorraine):
He moved to Italy and defeated the Duke of Ferrara in the Battle of Adria as an ally of the Republic of Venice.
In 1480 René succeeded his grandfather as Duke of Bar while his mother was still living. In 1482 he conquered the prévôté of Virton, a part of the Duchy of Luxembourg, and annexed it to Bar.
.
On the other hand, Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Ferrara says, speaking of the Battle of Adria, which it says was in 1482:
Venetian troops led by the condottiero Roberto Sanseverino[3] attacked Ferrarese territory from the north, brutally sacking Adria, quickly overrunning Comacchio, attacking Argenta at the edge of the saltmarshes and besieging Ficarolo in May (capitulated 29 June) and Rovigo (capitulated 17 August).
No mention of Rene.

But somebody posting on another site (no references) says, writing about Alfonso II of Naples (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in ... rs.113428/):
After Campo Morte he marched on Ferrara where the Venetian army under Sanseverino is under the walls. Alfonso is joined by Pitigliano leading the Florentine army and V Orsini leading the Papal army (the Pope has by now switched sides). Sanseverino abandons Ferrara and invaded Lombardy in order to support Bona of Savoy’s claims to the regency of Milan against Ludovico il Moro. Alfonso evades the Venetian army under Rene of Lorraine and ultimately invades Brescia, Bergamo and Verona forcing Sanseverino to pull back from Milan and Venice to make peace.
The Battle of Campo Morte ended August 21, 1482. If Rene was also conquering part of Luxembourg that same year, he was pretty busy. And generally, wars need some preparation, usually by the person leading it.

However another site, whose sketchiness does not inspire confidence, says Rene became Duke of Bar in 1483, not 1480 (http://www.hawaiilibrary.net/article/wh ... 20lorraine). The source given is "World Heritage Encyclopedia", no date. That seems to be an on-line encyclopedia of some sort, but I haven't figured out how to access it.

It might be that Rene I died in 1480, passing on Lorraine to his grandson then, but perhaps Rene didn't get Bar until his mother died in 1483. I can't figure it out, or find anything reliable about whether Rene was actually in Italy. We also do not know whether Venetians played tarot then.

Anyway, if Rene brought Triumphs to Bar by 1480-83, it seems plausible to me that they would have crossed the border into France, which wasn't far and spoke the same language. Bar was half French and half Imperial. Its Duke, e.g. Rene I or Rene II, was a "peer of France", according to Wikipedia.

I notice that Bar also has a dolphin on its coat of arms, less similar to the one on the Goldschmidt than either of the two: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_ ... r_Arms.svg. It would be of interest to know how far back that dates.

Huck wrote,
The source says "Trionfi decks", not "Tarot decks", btw. And "alla franciosa" could mean a lot of things, for instance court cards with banderoles a la "Lancelot" or "Jeanne d'Arc", either something, which we already know from other old cards or something, what we never have seen and never would think of.
"trionfi alla franciosa" suggests, at least as a strong possibility, that the triumphs were in the French style. It could mean the court cards and number cards, I suppose, but "trionfi" suggests mor naturally triumphs.

Huck wrote,
Julius still was a foe of Alfonso and likely prepared already to attack Bologna (which he actually did in 1506). The production of Taraux in Avignon might have been a counter attack on Alfonso's production (Julius should have been still mighty enough in Avignon to cause that; just a sort of counter propaganda).
This is not a strong argument. Alfonso wasn't trying to make money from tarot-production, so there is no reason for competition in that sense. As far as ideological warfare, much of the Church was against cards in general. To have produced the new deck, increasingly popular, would not have strengthened Julius's position, in fact the contrary. Part of Julius's defamation of his predecessor was against his immorality. Cards for many in the Church, at least the Franciscans and Dominicans, were a form of immorality.

Huck wrote,
Somehow you're fixed on the idea, that already a high number of French Trionfi existed before 1506.
I have no idea how many. It just seems likely that there were some, at least among the nobility, and maybe a mass production after around 1500 or earlier. It depends on what "trionfi alla franciosa" were, among other things.

Huck wrote,
We've the French opinion in c. 1650, that Tarot had its origin in Germany. Where does this error come from? I guess, they looked at the cards, detected the emperor and concluded, that this must have been a German production. Who else should have made such cards? Well, we know, that the cards were made in Italy.
We have no idea why some French scholars thought that in c. 1650. It might well have been that the tarot had, owing to the vagaries of royal taste, been more popular in the non-French border areas of France, such as Lorraine, than in France proper. Lorraine was part of the Holy Roman Empire and was in part German speaking. So German. There are also the German-speaking cantons of Switzerland. These are two places that had both French speakers and German speakers; so it was easy for news to come to Paris about card playing there. And if they weren't French, the next most likely possibility, based on language, was Germany.

Anyway, we are talking about the early 16th century. In 1519, when Maximilian died, the French king even tried to become Emperor (I gave the reference earlier).

Another example: we have Emperor cards in the non-Imperial, even anti-imperial "Charles VI" deck, Florentine. There is nothing objectionable in having Emperor cards in non-imperial places. In the United States we still have Kings and Queens on our playing cards, even though we don't have kings and queens. We don't call them "British" decks, and have no inclination to make decks without Kings and Queens (some did, I suppose, after the Revolutionary War, but they weren't popular.)

There is absolutely no reason to assume that the French in the early 16th century had removed the Emperor card from their triumph decks, and every reason to think the contrary.

At the end of your post you quote 18th century figures about Minchiate and generalize to 15th-16th century production about triumphs. That seems to me an unwarranted generalization. Minchiate, at least the Italian kind, was not popular in France in the 18th century, but so what? It says nothing about the popularity and local production of tarot, then or at any other time.

It still seems to me that when Marcello wrote to Isabelle, he was assuming she already knew about regular triumphs and hence there was no need for explanation. Otherwise he would have said something like, have my messenger (whoever it was), explain the game to you. And if he talks of the Michelino deck as a "new kind of triumphs", that implies that the other was the "old", which she already knew about, from somewhere--if not Naples, although that is possible, then from people associated with courts elsewhere, such as Savoy or Provence. These nobles, and their ladies in waiting, did get around. For the 15th century, I repeat, I am only talking about the high nobility, the courts of dukes and kings in French-speaking places with some relationship to the French crown. I see no reason why this nobility's interest, probably not great, in a foreign card game should have survived in documents from that period, other than the two we have.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#12
Franco's essay quotes from Thierry Depaulis's Le Tarot Révélé, 2013, to justify the hypothesis that there was by 1506 a definite French style of triumphs or tarots. I have managed to acquire Depaulis's book, and here is the whole paragraph, on p. 36, of which Franco quoted the last two sentences:
La plus ancienne mention connue du tarot en français date de décembre 1505: Elle se lit dans un acte notarié d'Avignon; par lequel le cartier Jean Fort s'engage à livrer à unpapetier de Pignerol et à un cartier local "quinque peciis modulorum sive moles artis cartarum, duabus grossis cartarum de Lugduno et quotuor duodenis quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" (cinque pièces de moules du métier de cartier [bois gravés pour l'impression], deux grosses [soit 2 x 144 jeux] de cartes de Lyon et quartre douzaines de [jeux de] cartes communément appelées taraux) (20). Certes Avignon n'était pas en France - c'était une cité pontificale - et la language de l'acte est le latin. Mais, de toute évidence, le mot tauraux n'est ici ni du latin ni du provençal. C'est du français. Rabelais et d'autres sources l'écrivent ainsi, première orthographe du jeu. La référence à des cartes "de Lyon" dit assez d'où vient le mot. Les cartiers d'Avignon étaient en relation étroite avec Lyon, d'où venaient leur savoir-faire et leurs modèles. Il est donc permis de penser que le mot s'entendait à Lyon aussi et que le jeu y était à Lyon aussi et que le jeu y était connu autour de 1500.
_________________
20. Thierry Depaulis, "Des 'cartes communément appelés taraux'", The Playing Card Vol. 32, no. 5, mars-avril 2004, p. 199-205; no. 6, mai-juin 2004, p. 244-249.
My translation, indicating also alternative readings in English of the French words:
The earliest mention of tarot known in French dates from December 1505: It reads in a notarized contract [act, deed] of Avignon; whereby the card-maker [or card-seller] Jean Fort undertakes to deliver to a paper-maker [or stationer] of Pignerol and a local card-maker [or seller] "quinque peciis modulorum sive moles artis cartarum, duabus magnified cartarum of Lugduno and quotuor duodenis quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" (five molds of the trade of card-maker [woodcuts for printing], two gross [i.e. 2 x 144 decks] of cards of Lyons and four dozen [decks] of cards commonly called taraux) (20). Certainly Avignon was not in France - it was a papal city - and the language of the act is Latin. But, obviously, the word tauraux is here neither Latin nor Provencal. It is French. Rabelais and other sources write thus, the first orthography of the game [or deck]. The reference to cards "of Lyons" says enough of where the word comes. The card-makers [or sellers] of Avignon were in close contact with Lyons, from where they got their know-how and their models. It is therefore arguable that the word was heard also in Lyons and the also the pack [or game] was in Lyons also and that the game [or pack] was known there around 1500.
___________
20. Thierry Depaulis, "Of the cards commonly called 'taraux'", The Playing Card Vol. 32, no. 5, March-April 2004, p. 199-205; No. 6, May-June 2004, p. 244-249.
The use of the French term in a contract otherwise in Latin would seem to imply that the term "taraux" was one commonly used in French. Against Depaulis, I would not think we can infer that the reference to "Lugduno" implies that the term "tarraux" is only from there, however. The notary makes a distinction between the cards "of Lyons" and the cards "commonly called taraux". I would think that the term "tarraux" was one used more generally than just Lyons. It was one already commonly used in the French language generally in that region. If they were only identified as Italian cards, and not a pack already with a French name from French use of the word in game-playing and deck-buying, he would have said "tarocchi", as notaries make it their business to be clear and precise.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#13
"Pignerol" is interesting. That is a town in Piedmont, about 25 miles southwest of Turino, close to the border with Savoy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinerolo). The Desana of Conte Ludovico II Tizzone, your candidate for the Goldschmidt commissioner, is about 37 miles northeast of Turino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desana). So possibly the taraux of Avignon were destined for export to Pignerol, in a region whose elite already played the game.

Depaulis says more about Pignarole on p. 34, in his section on Piedmont-Savoy:
Le tarot n'y est pas inconnu, mais c'est un cartier d'Avignon qui livre à Pignerol quatre douzaine de jeus de "cartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" en 1505 (voir plus loin). Faute de pouvoir fabriquer des cartes à jouer, l'espace savoisien s'est longtemps contenté de les importer: D'Avignon, mais plus probablement de Lyon et sans doute aussi de Milan.

(The tarot is not unknown there, but it is a card maker of Avignon who delivers to Pignerol [Italian: Pinerolo] four dozen packs of "cartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" in 1505 (see below). Unable to produce playing cards, the Savoyard area is long contented to import them: From Avignon, but more probably from Lyons and without doubt also from Milan.)
Murkier and murkier! Could it be that while the wood-blocks in Avignon were destined for a local card-maker, the cards themselves, at least the "taraux", were destined for Pignerol? Both the Goldschmidt and the 1505 Avignon note now point to Piedmont at least as much as to France. They at least know the word "taraux" in Avignon, but perhaps it is only among card-makers. On the other hand, Pignerol was controlled by the dukes of Savoy, Wikipedia tells us (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinerolo), and was a crossroads, from Piedmont to Savoy and then France. At that time, 1505, there was much traffic both ways. But again, that only speaks to France from 1505, as opposed to Savoy and Piedmont, where it seems likely to me that tarot was played before then, if only at the court where Marie of Savoy returned in 1447.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#14
Well, we had the same idea to look for Pignerol ...
mikeh wrote: My translation, indicating also alternative readings in English of the French words:
The earliest mention of tarot known in French dates from December 1505: It reads in a notarized contract [act, deed] of Avignon; whereby the card-maker [or card-seller] Jean Fort undertakes to deliver to a paper-maker [or stationer] of Pignerol and a local card-maker [or seller] "quinque peciis modulorum sive moles artis cartarum, duabus magnified cartarum of Lugduno and quotuor duodenis quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" (five molds of the trade of card-maker [woodcuts for printing], two gross [i.e. 2 x 144 decks] of cards of Lyons and four dozen [decks] of cards commonly called taraux) (20). Certainly Avignon was not in France - it was a papal city - and the language of the act is Latin. But, obviously, the word tauraux is here neither Latin nor Provencal. It is French. Rabelais and other sources write thus, the first orthography of the game [or deck]. The reference to cards "of Lyons" says enough of where the word comes. The card-makers [or sellers] of Avignon were in close contact with Lyons, from where they got their know-how and their models. It is therefore arguable that the word was heard also in Lyons and the also the pack [or game] was in Lyons also and that the game [or pack] was known there around 1500.
The use of the French term in a contract otherwise in Latin would seem to imply that the term "tarraux" was one commonly used in French. Against Depaulis, I would not think we can infer that the reference to "Lugduno" implies that the term "tarraux" is only from there, however. The notary makes a distinction between the cards "of Lyons" and the cards "commonly called taraux". I would think that the term "tarraux" was one used more generally than just Lyons. It was one already commonly used in the French language generally in that region. If they were only identified as Italian cards, and not a pack already with a French name from French use of the word in game-playing and deck-buying, he would have said "tarocchi", as notaries make it their business to be clear and precise.
Well ...

- .... 5 molds with "4x4 cards = 16 cards" would make 5x16 cards = 80 and that would be enough for a Taraux deck with 78 normal cards + 2 additional cards with unknown function. Naturally the 5 molds might have had also other function, not related to the Taraux production.

- .... 288 normal decks either made in Lyon or made also in Avignon in Lyonaise style, possibly with molds bought in Lyon

- .... 48 decks of Taraux cards

The whole went to Pignerol ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinerolo
... which plausibly belonged to Savoy in this time.

So let's look, what happened in Savoy in the late year 1505.

Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (till 10 September 1504, died),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philibert ... e_of_Savoy
was married to ...
Margareta of Austria (daughter of emperor Maximilian, earlier married to the Spanish successor; no children)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_ ... s_of_Savoy
followed by ...
Charles III, Duke of Savoy since 1504, half-brother of Philibert II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I ... e_of_Savoy
also part of the game ...
Louise of Savoy, elder sister of Philibert II and mother of Francois I (later king)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_of_Savoy

Well, that's a very complicated political situation 1504/1506. A lot of important persons died then, skipping the parties from one side to the other.

Isabella of Castile, 26th of November 1504
Philip I of Castile the handsome, son of emperor Maximilian, 25 September 1506
Frederick IV, last Aragon king of Naples (1496-1501), November 9, 1504
Ercole d'Este, January 1505.

It's a longer time ago, that I studied that ... a lot is forgotten on my side and I'm not interested to go in details in the moment. The treaty of Blois (22 September 1504) ...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait%C3%A9_de_Blois
... happened 12 days after 10 September, death of Margarete's husband (see above). So ... likely they knew about that, when making the treaty. Already in 1501 (after Louis had taken Milan) the idea was born, that the later emperor Charles V (then Charles of Luxembourg and just born) should marry in some future Claude, daughter of Louis XII, then 1 year old.
According the treaty of Blois (1504) the pair should get ... "les duchés de Milan, de Bourgogne, de Gênes et de Bretagne, ainsi que les comtés de Bourgogne, d'Asti et de Blois" ... so all that, what had caused trouble in the recent past between Habsburg and France.
Then ...
wiki
In 1505, Louis XII, very sick, fearing for his life and not wishing to threaten the reign of his only heir, cancelled the engagement in the Estates Generals of Tours, in favor of the young Duke of Valois, the future Francis I. Indeed, previously Louise of Savoy obtained from the king a secret promise that Claude could be married to her son.[5] Anne of Brittany, furious to see the triumph of Marshal of Gié, exerted all her influence to obtain his conviction for treason before the Parliament of Paris.[6]
I don't get the date for this decision in the moment. Klaus Schelle speaks of a "half year later" (after April 1505 ? ... when Milan became a kaiserliches Lehen for France) for the publication of the betrothal.

From wiki about Anne of Brittany, wife of Louis XII, I get this ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Brittany
As Duchess, Anne fiercely defended the independence of her Duchy. She arranged the marriage of her daughter, Claude, heiress of the Duchy, to Charles of Austria, to reinforce the Franco-Spanish alliance and ensure French success in the Italian Wars. The marriage contract was signed on 10 August 1501 in Lyon by François de Busleyden, Archbshop of Besançon, William de Croÿ, Nicolas de Rutter and Pierre Lesseman, all ambassadors of Duke Philip of Burgundy, Charles' father. However, the engagement was cancelled by Louis XII when it became likely that Anne would not produce a male heir. Instead, Louis XII arranged a marriage between Claude and the heir to the French throne, Francis of Angoulême. Anne, determined to maintain Breton independence, refused until death to sanction the marriage, pushing instead for Claude to marry Charles, or for her other daughter, Renée, to inherit the Duchy. It is at this point that she took the opportunity to tour the Duchy, visiting many places she had never been able to see as a child. Officially it was a pilgrimage to the Breton shrines, but in reality it was a political journey and an act of independence that sought to assert her sovereignty over the Duchy. From June to September 1505, she made triumphal entries into the cities of the Duchy, where her vassals received her sumptuously. In addition, she ensured the proper collection of taxes.[31]
Habsburg didn't react on the break of the marriage treaty, perhaps cause they had own problems enough. The second son-in-law died (1504), Isabella in Spain died (1504), the son died (1506), the daughter-in-law became sick (crazy) about it, the twice widowed daughter refused to marry for a 3rd time with 24 years ... from the perspective of Maximilian. The 3 grand-children made melancholic impressions, the 2nd wife didn't produce children (he wasn't totally lonesome then, I've read, that he had 9 illegitimate children, 5 alone from Margareta Von Edelsheim).

Well, it's strange, that this relative lonesome region of Savoy with its many mountains had so much importance just in the moment, when the 4 dozen Taraux decks and the other cards were send from Avignon to the relative small location Pignerol (5000 inhabitants at begin of 17th century), around 400 meters above sea level, with the only qualification, that it guards a long lonesome way (about 70 km) through a valley "Valle del Chisone" to reach the pass Sestriere (about 2000 meters high) and having then reached France and a long way down. Pignerol has 40 km to Turin. Turin has another valley "Valle di Susa" with much more traffic and much more population and less landscape difficulties running parallel in the same Western direction. The connected pass has only 1850 meters. It was already used by Pompey and Julius Caesar.

**********

It would be interesting to know, how pope Julius commented the political situation.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#15
It seems to me of interest to know which was used more by the French in 1505, the Susa Valley pass or the one through Pignerol, where there was a Savoy fortress. If it was the Pignerol one, that could explain the shipment of decks to that town, to sell to troops and other travelers.

Your material about the issue of Brittany's independence coming to a head at that time was interesting. Anne of Brittany, wife of first Charles VIII (married to her from 1491 until his death in 1498) and then Louis XII (married to him 1499), is one possibility for the lady with the castle on the Goldschmidt, seen in that case as representing different members or friends of the royal family. What Brittany has to do with Pignerol I do not quite see. Louise of Savoy, although very active then in royal intrigue (for her son Francis), was nowhere near Savoy then. I notice with interest that Anne of Brittany stayed part of the time in Lyons when her husband Charles VIII was in Italy. Anne of Brittany is also said by Wikipedia to have promoted Italian culture.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#16
It might be, that France gathered troops in the Western regions of Savoy. They indeed attacked Genova, which had rebelled ... for the moment I don't have the precise dates. But it seems, that the rebellion took place in early 1507, so was not really known in late 1505.

Genova is rather easy reachable from Pignarol. Ferrara and Alfonso participated in the fights.
Generally France needed a safe way to lead troops from France quickly to Milan and other Italian regions.

http://www.rome2rio.com/s/Pinerolo/Avignon-TGV
It seems to me of interest to know which was used more by the French in 1505, the Susa Valley pass or the one through Pignerol, where there was a Savoy fortress. If it was the Pignerol one, that could explain the shipment of decks to that town, to sell to troops and other travelers.
It seems, that the Susa valley was more used (but better protected). The advantage of the Pignarol way was, that France could easier take it, if necessary. And they took it finally, and made a big prison out of Pignarol.
What Brittany has to do with Pignerol I do not quite see. Louise of Savoy, although very active then in royal intrigue (for her son Francis), was nowhere near Savoy then.
It seems, that the suggestion to a marriage between Charles and Claude included a passage, according which her second daughter Renee would get Brittany (and so Brittany would have stayed independent. There were two important men in France 1504 and before, cardinal Amboise ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_d%27Amboise
... and Mareschal Gie alias Pierre de Rohan
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_de_Rohan-Gi%C3%A9
... with different political opinions.
Amboise preferred the Charles-Claude solution, Gie went to prison. Amboise nearly became pope, instead Julius II became it.
Although Amboise stayed successful against Gie, nonetheless later the plans were changed.

Louise was sister and half-sister to the both rulers in Savoy and sister-in-law to Margareta. That's a sort of being present, even when she didn't go to Savoy. And she got, what she wanted. Somehow she was in a position, that this worked. The result were 50 years of war between France and Habsburg.
And Anne didn't get, what she wanted.

Milan was parted from France by Savoy. So France had to deal with Savoy
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#17
On Google Maps, Pinerolo today looks like the middle of nowhere. To get to it from France, there is only a minor road that winds through various valleys. And while it seems to be flat east of Pinerolo, there are no major roads southeast, toward Genoa, at least now. Perhaps not then.

But I am not convinced that it was easier to get to Turino by way of the Susa Valley. Today it is, but that's because of the 13 km Frejus tunnel. What was there before that? Just a high footpath, popular with pilgrims but dubious for cannons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Cenis). And one other pass, lower but with no historic use listed on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_de_l%27%C3%89chelle). (I am using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal ... f_the_Alps as my source for mountain passes.)

Ah, now I see. Charles VIII, Wikipedia says, used the Montgenevre Pass, which becomes the road from Savoy to Pinerolo, if you are going southeast and want to avoid Turino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_de_Montgen%C3%A8vre). It also goes to Susa, but that way was easier for Italians to get to, so probably well defended. The Savoyards protected the route to Pinerolo, with a good fortress near the town; and French troops would have been allowed to move freely to there by their Savoyard allies. If Charles went via Pinerolo with his cannons, probably he made road improvements useful for future incursions.

I notice on Wikipedia that there was a major military school in Pinerolo that still is in business. Could the order have been for the cadets? But somehow I can't imagine a military school promoting card playing.

It seems to me that the cards had to be either for the French troops or the cadets. The court of Savoy was in Chambery, which is only around 60-70 miles east of Lyons, and a world away from Pinerolo.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#18
mikeh wrote: I'm sorry for misunderstanding; it's good to get that point cleared up. I had thought, on the other thread, that you were just presenting the 1510 idea as another possibility. I didn't realize you'd abandoned the 1461 idea, since you had argued so strongly for it before.
I don't have abondoned the 1461 idea, I just see that the Desana context is a serious competition in the question , which perhaps has some slight advantages against the 1461 hypothesis.
Huck wrote
The research about the dolphin gave the result, that the Dauphine dolphin looked similar to the Goldschmidt dolphin, but the dolphin of the Conte de Desana looked more similar (a clear "crowned dolphin").
I think you make too much of this. If the Goldschmidt pattern was still around, the Conte de Desana could just as well have gotten his emblem from the card as the other way around. Anyway, it is easy to put a crown on a dolphin. The similarity to the card is just one point among many, the others pointing to an earlier date.
I'd the Desana context earlier, long years ago, but, what I hadn't was the context, that emperor Maximilian gave the right to mint to the related Tizzone family just 1510. This created a reason to develop "family heraldry".
Le droit de battre monnaie a été accordé à Louis II Tizzone(1510-1525)par Maximilien d'Autriche(1493-1519).Les comtes de Desana monnayèrent jusqu'en 1683,date à laquelle l'atelier fut cédé au Duc de Savoie qui le ferma. Agostino(1559-1582) et Dauphin(1583-1598) imitèrent les Louis II de Montpensier et les Liards royaux français
http://www.la-detection.com/dp/message-16889.htm

1510 is close to 1512, when Isabella d'Este and cardinal Gurk likely (at least in my opinion) arranged a VS-deck for the Sforza return to Milan ... also with influence of emperor Maximilian.
In this situation somebody else might have had the idea to create a deck with heraldry ideas, independently. Perhaps for heraldry in the Piedmont/Savoy context, not easy to decipher.

Louis II Tizzone participated in the humanistic development of the time, and he had only 5 years (1510-1515) for this development.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#19
One more thing, having to do with the words "taraux" and "tarocchi". Ross and Andrea have noted the occurrence of "tarocchi" cognates in macaronic verses from Piedmont in the 1490s. The verse by Alione referenced by Andrea was in a frottola, a particular kind of song. Piedmont/Savoy is sort of bilingual, so perhaps both words were used. Perhaps the words were applied to the deck there first, before either Avignon or Ferrara, and then caught on, first in Ferrara, to distinguish it from the Spanish game that used regular cards and was called "trionfi".

I see that I once wrote (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=503&p=13864&hilit= ... zia#p13864) that in William F. Prizer's "Music in Ferrara and Mantua at the Time of Dosso Dossi", (in Dosso's Fate, ed. Ciammitti et al, pp. 295f), it says that Alfonso was in Savoy in 1502, where he hired his principal music copyist. He adds that 1502 is when Alfonso married Lucrezia Borgia. Lucrezia enjoyed frattole, hiring from Mantua at least three composers in that genre; Alfonso preferred French music. (I am not sure if I was quoting Prizer or paraphrasing him.)

So what were Alfonso's movements in late 1504-early 1505? Did he go through Savoy/Piedmont again? I know he had to return quickly from somewhere to be at Ercole's bedside when he died (and so he could secure his rulership).

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

#20
mikeh wrote:One more thing, having to do with the words "taraux" and "tarocchi". Ross and Andrea have noted the occurrence of "tarocchi" cognates in macaronic verses from Piedmont in the 1490s. The verse by Alione referenced by Andrea was in a frottola, a particular kind of song. Piedmont/Savoy is sort of bilingual, so perhaps both words were used. Perhaps the words were applied to the deck there first, before either Avignon or Ferrara, and then caught on, first in Ferrara, to distinguish it from the Spanish game that used regular cards and was called "trionfi".

I see that I once wrote (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=503&p=13864&hilit= ... zia#p13864) that in William F. Prizer's "Music in Ferrara and Mantua at the Time of Dosso Dossi", (in Dosso's Fate, ed. Ciammitti et al, pp. 295f), it says that Alfonso was in Savoy in 1502, where he hired his principal music copyist. He adds that 1502 is when Alfonso married Lucrezia Borgia. Lucrezia enjoyed frattole, hiring from Mantua at least three composers in that genre; Alfonso preferred French music. (I am not sure if I was quoting Prizer or paraphrasing him.)

So what were Alfonso's movements in late 1504-early 1505? Did he go through Savoy/Piedmont again? I know he had to return quickly from somewhere to be at Ercole's bedside when he died (and so he could secure his rulership).
Alfonso was in France and in England. Likely I've written here somewhere minor details about the journey, which I don't remember now.
Not "Tarocchi", but "Tarocus" appeared in the macaroni literature. In my opinion the first story referred to a scene in September 1495 and the peace negotiations between France and Milan, and when some French soldiers were still suffering in Novara. Some died cause of hunger.
The battle of Fornovo in July 1495 (at the river "Taro") had been then just 2 months ago.

The meaning of the word is then clearly negative. Ross, Andrea and others relate it to "Idiot, Fool" and from this later "Game of the Fool = Tarocchi" or "Taraux".
I think, that it was used as mockery word for the French soldiers and other persons from their side, referring to losers of this battle at the river "Taro". The relevant poet was on the Milanese side.

The second poem was from a poet at the French side, and likely a foe of the other macaroni poet. The meaning of his word is less clear.

I think, that the meaning of the word on the French side was mutated. As far I remember, Alfonso fought on the French side 1495, his brother Ferrante on the other side. If some French speakers turned the word to a positive meaning after the French turned back victorious in 1499 and 1500 the word might have taken the meaning "French triumph". This might have been Alfonso's interpretation, when he named his new Trionfi deck in 1505 "Tarochi".

He expressed his own friendly relation to France.

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Huck
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