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Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

21 by Huck
The Avignon production ...
- .... 5 molds with "4x4 cards = 16 cards" would make 5x16 cards = 80 and that would be enough for a Taraux deck with 78 normal cards + 2 additional cards with unknown function. Naturally the 5 molds might have had also other function, not related to the Taraux production.

- .... 288 normal decks either made in Lyon or made also in Avignon in Lyonaise style, possibly with molds bought in Lyon

- .... 48 decks of Taraux cards
***********

The 2004 article of Depaulis to the researcher Chobaut (1955) and his errors about Tarot cards in Avignon, which finally led to the recognition of the Avignon document of December 1505 (Chobaut had given it to 1507).

Image


Chobaut had identified the production of cards with Italians suits in Avignon as production of "Tarot cards". At least we know from this, that cards with Italian style occasionally were produced in Avignon (since 1492) ... rather precisely the time, when cardinal Guiliano de Rovere (later pope Julius II) preferred to take his place in France, cause he feared the mighty hands of pope Alexander VI.

Once we had this funny thread about Chobaut ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&p=11543#p11543

The Chobaut text is online, but only as snippets ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=Tn4SAA ... edir_esc=y

Ross once gave some summaries of the Chobaut text at the begin of the following thread ...
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... ignon+1505
From Hyacinthe Chobaut, "Les maîtres-cartiers d'Avignon" (Provence Historique, t. VI (1955), pp. 5-84).

Earliest mention of cards is 15 January, 1431.

Bernard de Guillermont, papermaker, agrees to sell all of his paper for the upcoming year at a fixed price to two Italians established at Avignon (Nicolas de Ambrosiis and Odet Bouscarle), all kinds of paper including paper for making playing cards - "pro qualibet rayma papiri ad faciendum cartas pro ludendo, viginti unius grossorum" - for any ream of paper for making playing cards, twenty-one gross.

14 October, 1437. A certain Jaco Sextorii, papermaker, sells his production of paper for one year to the Italian Odet Bouscarle - all types of paper including paper "pro rayma papiri dupli pro cartis, viginti grossorum" - for a ream of double paper for cards, twenty gross. (the name is shorter (cartis) and the price is going down!)

Chobaut notes that paper-making in the Comtat-Venaissin (Avignon region) begins in the second half of the 14th century. He says that while some of this paper might have been made for export to towns like Lyon, it is highly probable that there were already card-makers in Avignon.

1441 - card playing prohibited in the Statutes of Avignon for religious and clerics. - "... statuimus et ordinamus, quod si quis clericus vel ecclesiastica persona ad ludos taxillorum, alearum vel cartarum publice vel occulte ... ludere praesumbit".

1441, 8 May. Etienne Mouret or Moret, named "factor cardarum (=cartarum)" - cardmaker. He is the earliest known cardmaker in Avignon. He is known to have lived in Avignon since 12 March, 1419 to around 1435, when he had moved 24km from the town (from 1419-1437, he is called "mercier" (haberdasher) in various documents; he is called "painter" in a document of 1437, and then in 1439 he moved to Avignon again, where he is called "mercier" in two documents of 1439 and 1440. In 1441 he is called "cardmaker" for the first time).

1442, 30 April. Mouret again named "factor cartarum".

1443, 15 June. Mouret again named "factor cartarum".

1443, 4 December. Mouret called "factor cartarum et pictor" (cardmaker and painter). This is the last time he is named in Avignon. Chobaut writes that "I believe that Mouret was a mercier, painter and cardmaker at the same time. These three professions were related in the 15th century (...). It must not be forgotten that at this time merciers sold playing cards, and that they were often painted by hand." (Marchione Burdochio (Bolognese) in Ferrara at the same time was a mercier (merzaro), and sold triumph cards to the Este family). Chobaut continues - "Even though we do not find him called specifically a cardmaker until 1441-1442, nothing prevents thinking he exercised this profession beforehand."

1444-1448. Mouret lives in Montpellier. In 1447 a certain Pierre Mouret, perhaps Etienne's son, is described as "fazedor de cartas, alias de ybys, que demora sota 'Sant Nicolau'" - cardmaker, also called 'ybys' (=naybes?), who lives under 'Saint Nicholas'". In 1448 Etienne Mouret is described as someone "que fa las cartas ho lo ybes per joguar" - who makes cards or 'ybes' for playing.

1441-1448. Gillet Curier is the second known cardmaker in Avignon. He is alternately called mercier and cardmaker in the documents; the earliest time he is called "factor cartarum" is 5 January, 1445. He also made images of Saint Peter of Luxemburg for the Celestine monastery of Avignon, perhaps for sale to pilgrims.

1448. Jean Benoît (from Bourges) is called "mercier".

1450. Jean Benoît is called "factor cartarum" (third known cardmaker in Avignon).

1451. Jean Benoît is called "factor cartularum".

1451. Jacques Monteil (from du Puy) "factor cartarum".

1456-1480. Raynaud Silvi (from Orpierre in diocese of Gap), named "factor cartarum" in various documents (fourth known cardmaker in Avignon).

1459-1472. Antoine Biolet, (originally from Lyon), named "carterius", "factor cartarum", or "factor quartarum" in various documents (fifth known cardmaker in Avignon).

1463. A certain "Labe" and Richard Rétif, named "factores cartarum" (sixth and seventh known cardmakers in Avignon).

1464-1487. Guillaume Veron (from Poitiers), named "factor cartarum" (eighth known cardmaker in Avignon).

1469. Guillaume Trentesous, named painter and "faciens cartas ad ludendum" (ninth known cardmaker in Avignon).

Chobaut continues - "Around 1475-1480... the number of master cardmakers multiplies in Avignon. Some learned their craft here, while others came from all over: Jean Barat, from the diocese of Ivrea (1473-1481); Guillaume Bal or Bar, from the diocese of Tarantaise (1485-1502); Jean Janin, from the diocese of Besançon (1477-1485); Antoine Deleuze (de Illiceto), painter and cardmaker, from Fontarèche in the diocese of Uzès (1473-1520), and even a woman, Catherine Auribeau, 'carteria', widow of the master Raynaud Silvi (1480-1510), etc...

"The most important producers of this epoch are : Pierre Perouset, painter decorator, cardmaker and merchant furrier, from Vienne (1481-1506), and Jean Fort or Le Fort (1488-1510), originally from the diocese of Paris, or perhaps earlier from Bernay in the diocese of Lisieux, who each had numerous apprentices. One finds beside them Jean Chaudet, from the diocese of Vienne (1483-1497); Jean Brunet, merchant mercier and cardmaker, from the diocese of Geneva (1481-1498), then his son Jean (1517-1521); Charles Charvin, from the same diocese (1497-1517); Antoine Filhat, originally from the diocese of Belley (1497-1520); Léonard Nicolay, from the diocese of Limoges (1500-1515), etc...

"Many of these specialists probably came from the Lyonnais center, very important for the fabrication of cards in the 15th century. The documents will show us that the production of cards was very abundant in Avignon between 1480 and 1515, even if, - to my knowledge at least, - no playing card preserved today in either public or private collections today is witness of it."
(pp. 9-10).

1505. December. The first known reference anywhere to cards called "taraux" (a little earlier in the year, in Ferrara, "tarocchi" are mentioned for the first time). Cardmaker Jean Fort (mentioned above), in Avignon, agrees to send various items to Pinerolo (in Savoy/Piedmont, near Turin), including 48 packs of cards "commonly called taraux".

Chobaut - "This period of prosperity (for the Avignonnais cardmakers) ceased between 1510 and 1520. Already in 1506, Pierre Perouset had gone bankrupt, his possessions were sold; beginning in 1510 Jean Fort abandonned the profession of cardmaker to devote himself entirely to haberdashery; some masters equally gave themselves over to other activities; many left Avignon, which they abandonned no doubt to find their fortune in other towns."

This abrupt decline was no doubt due to the massive production in Lyon.
Interestingly Italians are noted at the begin of the development, not as cardmakers, but possibly as business men interested to establish also a card production.

The name "Fort" (the producer of 1505) appears variously. The last passage (by Ross) describes the decline of card production in Avignon ... which - according my suspicion in contrast to the interpretation of Ross ("This abrupt decline was no doubt due to the massive production in Lyon.") - has something to do with the condition, that pope Julius had left Avignon and in the following years the relation between France and Julius declined, too.

On archbishop in Avignon Giuliano de Rovere (= Pope Julius II) followed ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cat ... of_Avignon
1474–1503: Giuliano della Rovere (Archbishop from 1475)
1504–1512: Antoine Florès
(rather unknown)
1512–1517: Orlando Carretto della Rovere (Orland de Roure) ... parallel to pope Julius II (died 1513), also Rovere
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/brovo.html
1517–1535: Hippolyte de' Medici ... parallel to the both Medici popes, himself the illegitimate son of Clemems VII
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ippolito_de%27_Medici
1535–1551: Alessandro Farnese the Younger ... parallel to the Farnese pope Paul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandr ... (cardinal)
The 3 last of these surely weren't much in Avignon.

****************

Reading the Depaulis article again, I'm puzzled about a "9" as the difference between "34" and "45" (likely a typo or I don't understand something ... it should be 11).
A paper merchant (Chistoforus Galea) and a card producer (Bernardin Truque) are at the habitation of Joanni Fortis in Avignon and trade paper in the value of 45 Florins of Avignon currency to 34 Florins of Avignon currency and the mentioned items (5 moles, 288 decks from Lyon, 48 Taraux card decks and 3 books of special quality). Galea and Truque are both from the discussed location Pinerolo. The action needs a notary and a witness.

No word, what motifs were on the "moles" or moulds (Tarot or other playing cards; I can't imagine,that they were empty).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

22 by Huck
"cartarum de Lugdono"
"quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux"

... the both expressions appear together in one sentence in the document of December 1505, written by the notary Andrea de Villa, who is just a notary and likely not an expert for playing card production.

But card production experts are present: Jean Fort or Joanni Fortis, mainly a paper trader, Bernardinus Truque, cardmaker in Pinorola and a Hostelleto de Costa ["factore cartarum diocesis Viennensis", translated by Depaulis as fabricante de cards from the Diocese Vienne (30 km close to Lyon); Chobaut proposes a known cardmaker "Ancelot de Lacos" or "Otellet de Couls, de Losco, de Costis" at Vienne, active 1483-1506], who is possibly only a witness as the also mentioned Poncio Chaberni "funerio" (likely "baker").

I could imagine, that notary Andrea de Villa wouldn't have written "quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux", if he had known the card deck type "Taraux" before. ... then he would have written "Taraux cards" or similar. I think, that "quartarum vulgo appelatarum taraux" sounds, as if he had asked the present card experts, what this object is, and that he got too much explanations, which he finally reduced to "cards usually addressed as Taraux" as the most easy way to describe the object ("Taraux cards" would have been shorter, but he wanted to avoid any possible error about the addressed object).

It's strange, that he writes once cartarum de Lugdono and then quartarum in the Taraux context, it looks, as if the interruption by his request "What is this?" caused this "error" (an error, if it wasn't his intention to use a code to differ cartarum from quartarum with some logical reason).
A logical reason might be, that cartarum indeed means only a special sort of paper, and quartarum means "playing cards" ... but this naturally would confuse the complete interpretation of the document, and one better leaves this possibility aside. Just a "writing error" keep life easier.

Well, our question is, if the word Taraux was well known or not ... in December 1505 in Avignon, so it's of some importance, what the notary understood of the word.

The presence of a second fabricante de carte (Hostelleto de Costa) plausibly explains as a witness of the contract.
Image
Nonetheless his presence might be of hidden meaning. The business partner of the men of Pinerolo is John Fort, who paid 34 Florins (of totally 45), but who delivered the other material? John Fort, so I read once in the earlier discussions (at least I remember his and forgot my precise source), had been more a paper trader, not a producer of playing cards.
Hostelleto might be his source for it: 5 moles, 288 playing cards deck from Lyon, 48 Tarot decks and 3 curious books. Naturally this might come ALSO from somebody else, but Hostelleto is one mentioned in the document and so "somehow present".
We have this curious "typo" (already mentioned before) in the Depaulis text ... Depaulis speaks in his summary of "9 Florin" as the value of all this added material, however, I researched the Latin text for a "9", as far the text is given by Depaulis (it's not totally complete), but didn't find it.
Image


Image
"34" is mentioned, the sum "45" and the difference between 34 and 45 is "11", not "9". The "typo" would make sense, if Hostelleto (or somebody else) sold the material for "9 Florin" and Fort sold the same material to the men of Pinerolo for 11 Florin.

Then we have the curious note of Chobaut, that Hostelleto worked from 1483-1506.
Image
December 1505 is a short time before 1506, Hostelleto might have been already on his way "out of business". In such cases one usually makes low prices and attempts to get all material away.
Hypothetically big man Jean Fort might have arranged, that the cardmaker in Pinerolo knew about "cheap card printing material on the market" and a meeting was arranged in the house of John Fort. The cardmaker of Pinerolo traveled with his local paper trader to keep costs low and Fort arranged, that Hostelleto was in Avignon at the right time. Fort got his provision, Hostelleto liquidated some of his material and the cardmaker from Pinerolo had a good price.

***********

This is naturally only insecure speculation. Hostelleto might be just a natural accidental witness, and the "9" or "11" might be a typo or just my error.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

24 by mikeh
Huck wrote,
It's strange, that he writes once cartarum de Lugdono and then quartarum in the Taraux context, it looks, as if the interruption by his request "What is this?" caused this "error" (an error, if it wasn't his intention to use a code to differ cartarum from quartarum with some logical reason).
A logical reason might be, that cartarum indeed means only a special sort of paper, and quartarum means "playing cards" ... but this naturally would confuse the complete interpretation of the document, and one better leaves this possibility aside. Just a "writing error" keep life easier.
They didn't have cards in ancient Rome, so it's a matter of what cards were called in Latin documents of 1400-1500. My impression is "charta", of which "carta" would be a variant. "Quarta" is a variant of "quadra", meaning "quadrangle", i.e. the same thing. It seems to me that Depaulis's translation of both as "cartes"--French for "cards"--is correct. While "cartes" (French) can mean other things than cards, a special type of paper is not one of them.

Huck wrote
Well, our question is, if the word Taraux was well known or not ... in December 1505 in Avignon, so it's of some importance, what the notary understood of the word.

Depaulis makes the point that the spelling of "taraux" does not correspond to the spelling conventions of either Latin or Provencale, which is what was spoken in Avignon. It is French. The notary may or may not have been familiar with a word spelled "taraux". Since he is in a Provencale-speaking area, perhaps not; even if he is, he cannot assume that a judge or anyone else connected with enforcing contracts would know the word as part of the ordinary language of the town or ordinary legal Latin. So he is in a sense excusing himself for introducing a foreign word, perhaps as adopted by a local subculture. That is Depaulis's main argument for thinking that these cards were used in France, namely, the notary's spelling of the word. The word is of French origin. Since the main card producing place in the vicinity is Lyon, then probably that is where the word comes from, Depaulis reasons, to designate a particular type of playing card pack. What the cards actually looked like, and what games they were used for, requires a separate argument.

Actually, we know something else: that whatever they are, these cards are different from the ones associated with Lyon. Presumably these are ordinary French-suited 52 card decks. If the word "taraux" does come from Lyon, then it is probably more recently from there than the type of deck called "de Lyon", whenever that was. But the word "taraux" might not have come to Avignon from Lyon at all.

It seems to me, against Depaulis, that we cannot assume that an area that commonly speaks Provencale or even mixed French-Dutch would not have introduced the word "taraux" which then spreads to Avignon. If French rather than Provencale, etc., was spoken in the courts and by the nobility, and the game was first introduced to the area by French-speaking nobility, then the word "taraux" could easily be attached to them even by ordinary people. It is snob-appeal. "Taraux" is a high-class game, even if the cards are rough, stenciled affairs, far removed from the hand-painted elegance of the courtiers' cards.

I would assume that the Papal Court in Avignon spoke neither French nor Provencale, but rather Latin, which is higher class than either. So in Avignon, anything in either of the former languages would have a "vulgar" name.

The question is then, where else, besides Lyon and other places properly in France, would the nobility be speaking French? In Savoy? In Provence? In Lorraine? In Brussels? I mention these places because tarot might have been played there early on. I don't know the answers, but I suspect that some of them would have, because their rulers preferred French and even often, like Rene of Anjou, were French. And there is the saying attributed to Emperor Charles V, probably wrongly: "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to my Horse." Well, he had it in for the Lutherans, even if he could never defeat them.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

25 by Huck
French words ...
taraux, tarau, tarault, tarots, tarot, tarotz, taros, tharauts ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=754&p=11489&hilit=taraux#p11488

Taraux appears not so often (once even in Oxford, one a "?", and a 3rd in Avignon 1505), I'm not sure, how one will make it to a French word spoken in Lyon. Lyon seems to have had a preference for Tarots or Tarotz.

As Taraux is the "first use" in Avignon, it's rather difficult to say, if the first use on Provencale dialect (or Occitan or "Rodanenc") ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proven%C3%A7al_dialect
... was different. Is there a modern Rodanenc word for Tarot, different to all those shown?

If "Tarochi" or "Taraux" developed from "Taro", an Italian name for a specific river .... ? In any case no problem.

If "Tarochi" or "Taraux" developed from "Tarocus", then we haven't a French origin of the word, but a Milanese macaroni text stands for the idea.

**********

Recently I wrote ...
At least we know from this, that cards with Italian style occasionally were produced in Avignon (since 1492) ... rather precisely the time, when cardinal Guiliano de Rovere (later pope Julius II) preferred to take his place in France, cause he feared the mighty hands of pope Alexander VI.
I checked the date of Guiliano de Rovere .... he went to France in April 1494, so not so close to 1492. Before he had taken shelter in Ostia to be save against any attack of the side of Borgia.
The deciding signal to leave Italy was the death of king Ferrante in Naples (25th of January 1494), which opened the chance of a French attack on Naples.
https://books.google.de/books?id=mBrKBw ... navlinks_s

The deciding signal to leave Italy was the death of Ferrante in Naples, 25th of January 1494.
Last edited by Huck on 14 Oct 2015, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

26 by mikeh
Huck wrote,
If "Tarochi" or "Taraux" developed from "Tarocus", then we haven't a French origin of the word, but a Milanese macaroni text stands for the idea.
The issue is not the ultimate origin of the word "taraux", but the particular spelling ("orthographe") "taraux", which Depaulis says is French rather than Provençale. Since he did not explicitly justify his reasoning, based on known similar Provençale words, that point might need looking into.

I need to correct something I wrote in my previous post. I wrote:
My impression is "charta", of which "carta" would be a variant. "Quarta" is a variant of "quadra", meaning "quadrangle", i.e. the same thing. It seems to me that Depaulis's translation of both as "cartes"--French for "cards"--is correct.
They may not be quite the same thing. "Quarta", like "quadra", seems more general than "carta", a word that would apply to any quadrilateral shaped thing--for example a painting, as in the modern Italian "quadro". Perhaps the notary was not sure that taraux were called cartes.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

27 by Huck
:-o
mikeh wrote: They may not be quite the same thing. "Quarta", like "quadra", seems more general than "carta", a word that would apply to any quadrilateral shaped thing--for example a painting, as in the modern Italian "quadro". Perhaps the notary was not sure that taraux were called cartes.
"cart-..." and "quart-..." are occasionally used for playing cards, no doubt. It's just curious, that both variants appear in one sentence.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

28 by mikeh
As a follow up on the previous: There are French-Provencale dictionaries online.

http://www.freelang.com/enligne/provenc ... .php?lg=fr

According to http://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices ... -94426.php
words ending in -aux in French are words whose singular forms end in -al. There is no French word "taral". However when I look up "général" (as an example) in the French-Provencale dictionary above, it comes out "generau". The dictionary doesn't say how the plural is formed, but at least I can hypothesize where the "au" in the French plurals comes from: a spelling and pronunciation shift that did not happen in Provencale. Now, if only I could think of other nouns in French ending in "-al" other than foreign imports that are exceptions to the rule!
(Added an hour later: another I just thought of is "cheval", meaning "horse". In Provencale it is "chivau" or "cavau". Another is "Provencal" itself, plural "Provencaux". There seems to be a trend. But these are singular. What are the corresponding Provencale plurals? )

On a side note: I noticed (while searching for a translation of "tarot" from French to Provencale), at http://lexiqueprovencal.com/index.php5?page=lexique

taré (fou) adj/particip = tarous

That is, a word for "crazy" is "taré" in French and "tarous" in Provencale. Interesting. I wonder what the plural form of "tarous" would be.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

29 by mikeh
Another follow up. I wrote,
What are the corresponding Provencale plurals?
At https://www2.bc.edu/~shepardl/rl572/provencal.html I read:
Like Old French, Old Provencal had a system of two noun classes, the nominative and the oblique, as well as the singular and plural numbers. "s", deriving from the Latin masculine singular —US, is the mark of the masculine nominative singular as well as the oblique plural. The nominative plural and the oblique singular lack the "s". Feminine nouns do not distinguish between the nominative and oblique cases, and bear the "s" in the plural only.
In modern Provencale there seems to be two ways of making plurals. In some places, the words are the same, singular and plural, and plurals are indicated by a change in the adjectives modifying them (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Occita ... itime.html). In other places, there is a change, by adding "s" to the word, unless the singular ends in -s -ç -tz -x or -z, in which case it remains the same (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Occita ... encal.html). In neither case does a plural end in -x, as in "taraux". Perhaps that is why Depaulis says that "taraux" is a French spelling. It would be nice to see that confirmed by actual practice in Avignon of c. 1500; I expect that Depaulis has done that.

Re: Germini - Florentine-French Trionfi 1506

30 by Huck
On a side note: I noticed (while searching for a translation of "tarot" from French to Provencale), at http://lexiqueprovencal.com/index.php5?page=lexique

taré (fou) adj/particip = tarous

That is, a word for "crazy" is "taré" in French and "tarous" in Provencale. Interesting. I wonder what the plural form of "tarous" would be.
hm ... then the question is, what's first, the hen or the egg.

Is there evidence for the use of "taré" or "tarous" before 1495?

*************

I think, we have had the meaning "Fool, foolish" already before, maybe not from Provencale dictionaries, but from others. Interesting would be real documents, which use these words with the same meaning before the "Tarocus" of Bassano Mantovano.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
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