We already know that Tarocch had the meaning 'fool' (i.e., same as a blockhead or loggerhead, dunce, fool), what we don't have evidence of is the meaning or usage as 'piece of wood, log, stump, family tree' -- did this come later? (Generally a figurative sense would follow the literal -- but not always.)

According to wiki:

"Western Lombard is a Romance language spoken in Italy, in the Lombard provinces of Milan, Monza, Varese, Como, Lecco, Sondrio, a small part of Cremona (except Crema and its neighbours), Lodi and Pavia, and the Piedmont provinces of Novara, Verbano-Cusio-Ossola and a small part of Vercelli (Valsesia), and Switzerland (the Canton of Ticino and part of the Canton of Graubünden). After the name of the region involved, land of the former Duchy of Milan, this language is often referred to as Insubric (see Insubria and Insubres) or Milanese, or, after Clemente Merlo, Cisabduano (literally "of this side of Adda River").

"In Italian-speaking contexts, Western Lombard is often incorrectly called a dialect of Italian. Western Lombard and Standard Italian are very different.Some speakers of Lombard varieties may have difficulty understanding each other and require a standard to communicate, but all Western Lombard varieties are mutually intelligible."

So if Tarocch was a Milanese word, it is more likely to be found among those regions, rather than the rest of Italy (or as Andrea has done, among other Romance languages, Galician, Catalan, Portuguese).

We'd double posting ... I expanded the article to "Borra" a little bit.

2 posts back.

In Milanese there is the word 'bora' which means a cut trunk, as in the Lombard / Bergamese proverb:

Intréc come oeuna bora
(As naive/innocent/gullible/ignorant as a cut trunk)

Intréch comè oeuna bora (Bergamo).

Intiero (ignorante) come un tronco (o pezzo di legno). La bora o bura in diversi dialetti lombardi è un tronco da segare. In Alta Lombardia si usava dire anche intrech comè 'n gerlo, intiero come una gerla. In realtà questi due modi di dire si possono riferire anche a persone piuttosto semplici e ingenue.

Blameless (ignorant) as a trunk (or piece of wood). Bora or bura in diverse Lombard dialect means a log to be sawn. In high Lombardy they also used to say ignorant as a 'gerlo', blameless as a pannier, In fact these two idioms can also refer to people who are simple or naive.

Another idiomatic epiteth:

Vèss on tarlucch (Milanese).

Essere zuccone, testa di legno. In altri dialetti lombardi si dice anche "tarloch". Questi due epiteti sembra derivino da una parola spagnola "tarugo"(pezzo di legno), che a sua volta avrebbe anche un significato figurato, corrispondente all'Italiano "tanghero". Peraltro nel dialetto di oggi questo modo di dire è praticamente in disuso.

To be a blockhead, a wooden head. In other dialects of Lombard it is also said "tarloch". These two epithets seem to be derived from the Spanish word "tarugo" (a piece of wood), which in turn would also have a figurative meaning, corresponding to English "bumpkin". However, in the dialect of today this saying is virtually obsolete.

SteveM wrote

We already know that Tarocch had the meaning 'fool' (i.e., same as a blockhead or loggerhead, dunce, fool)

We don't know that this word had that meaning by 1500. We know that two other words "tarochus" "taroch" , meant "fool" by that time in Piedmont. The "cch" spelling is suspect, not the usual ending of a word; it looks more like a word formed from dropping the "i" from "tarocchi", as I think it was Ross that pointed out.

In your latest post you do us good service by connecting Andrea's observations about Spain with someone else's (Vèss), connecting Spain with Lombardy. So we have the word "tarloch", supposedly derived from the Spanish "tarugo", where it had the meaning something like "bumpkin". But we don't know when that word appeared in Lombardy, or when it got that meaning. Even if it is obsolete now, the word or meaning may have been introduced after 1500. Andrea's source said the meaning was modern.

Even if these words can be shown to have been used somewhere in Northern Italy around 1500, it still isn't clear that it was this word that produced "tarocchi" and "tarot", the game. Why was the final consonant sound dropped so quickly, July to December of 1505? Are there other words that dropped the hard "c" going from Italian to French at this late date, after the widespread use of printing? Depaulis says it should have been "taroque" or something like that.

On this question, there is still, before 1500, the Arabic "tarah", as what is deducted, the French "taré", clearly meaning "defective" before 1500, and the Provencal "tarou", of an unknown date, pronounced like "tarot". If the Arabic word, with its ambiguous ending, turned into two words, one with and one without the consonant, then we have an explanation. Also, both types of word could have been in use before 1500, one coming from Provence--which Avignon and Lyon are very near--and the other from Piedmont.

There is also the question of the relationship of these words for "piece of wood" and the Arabic "tarah". Andrea observes, in his comments to the quotation from Prof. Santamarina (again http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 09&lng=ENG; I highlight the parts of interest):

It is our opinion that since the meaning of 'taroco' or 'Tarouco' in Galician, namely "piece of wood, piece of hard bread", and is also found in the Castilian term 'tarugo' which also has "person of approximate understanding = one who has a hard head, who is clumsy, like a piece of wood" (in English “blockhead” that is also synonym of fool, idiot, as cited by http://www.thesaurus.com) the term must unquestionably be correlated with the meaning of 'taroco' as a person deducted, who lacks a decent IQ (the dull blockhead [zoquete] quoted by Lemen), to be identified as a crazy person, since hard heads do not reason. See in this respect what we have written in the text about the etymology of 'taroco, tarot, Tarouco'. In addition, if as affirmed by Professor. Santamarina, 'tarugo' comes from the Castilian (term documented in 1386), it is very likely that it is to be derived from 'taroco' which needed to be already present for some time. As the philologists know, words travel and emerge capriciously.

For the word I translated as "deducted", Andrea has in the Italian original "tarata"; that word means "tared"; since "tare" as a verb means, according to my dictionary, "allow for the tare of", i.e. the weight to be deducted, I assumed "deducted". But of course that misses most of the point, the root of the Italian word. "Tarata" also means "calibrated, regulated" and--separate entry--"crazy". Andrea here seems to be suggesting that the Castilian word came from the Arabic. Well, containers tended to be made of wood; weighing the merchandise, its weight would be deducted.

I am not saying that your suggested derivation is wrong. However there remain other etymologies, even ones quite related to yours, that are just as reasonable. We may never know.

I just remind: the whole debate about "Tarocch" started with that, what Stephen (in 2007) found in Florio's work 1611:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1074&p=16518&hilit=tarocch#p16518

Persecuting Tarocch ...

Stephen noted this word for the first time at AT in 2007 ...
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=11 ... tcount=270

Tarocchista. Minchiatista. Joueur de tarots m.
Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.
Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat. Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.

Pedale: a foote, a base, a foundation, the stocke or roote of a tree or any thing else, a foote-stale, a foote-stoole, a supporter, a stake or forke to beare vp any vine, hops, or trees, a prop, or stay. Also the measure or space of a foote. Also a mans stocke, wealth, or substance. Also socks, or thin dancing pumps. Vsed also for a mans off-spring, stocke, lineage, blood, or descent.

Toppo: a counterbuffe, a counter shocke at tilt./ Related to Toppáre ~ to counter-shocke or giue a counter-buffe. Also to finde or meete withall by chance. Also to snatch or take away. Also to set, to cast at, to plaie at or hold the by or vie at any game namely at dice. Also to put to a dore and make it fast with a haspe or latch or wodden locke. / A tóppogiuócare a tóppo, to play at gresco or hazzard, and then to set at euery chance or cast, or to set and cast at the by.

Chantier: m. A Wood-mongers, or Tymber-sellers, yard; also, a Staulder, or Wood-pile; also, a Vine-supporting pole, or stake (whether it stand vpright, or lye, as a crosse barre, ouerthwart; and (hence) also, as Treillis, or a rayle for the same purpose; also, a Stoope, or Pile, vnderpropping the banke of a riuer; also, a Gauntrie, or Stilling, for Hogs heads, &c. to stand on; also, a Tresle to saw Tymber on.

Chicot. A stub, or stumpe; or as Chiquot: m. A scale in the root, or end of a nayle; also, a sprig, or shoot of a tree; also, the stumpe of a tooth

Souche: f. The stock, trunke, or bodie of a tree; a log; also, the maine stock, or direct line of a pedegree, progenie, or familie; also, as Souchet; or, the root of the wild, or English Galingale. Souche commune. The descent of many brothers or cousens, from one father, mother, grandfather, or grandmother. Tant que tige fait souche, elle ne branche iamais.

Stephen had persecuted the explaining words of Florio, leaving Borra aside. The result was, that many words were associated to "WOOD".

Focusing Borra (the first explanation of Florio and for that reason likely the most important explanation) he wrote now:

In Milanese there is the word 'bora' which means a cut trunk, as in the Lombard / Bergamese proverb:

Intréc come oeuna bora
(As naive/innocent/gullible/ignorant as a cut trunk)

Intréch comè oeuna bora (Bergamo).

Intiero (ignorante) come un tronco (o pezzo di legno). La bora o bura in diversi dialetti lombardi è un tronco da segare. In Alta Lombardia si usava dire anche intrech comè 'n gerlo, intiero come una gerla. In realtà questi due modi di dire si possono riferire anche a persone piuttosto semplici e ingenue.

Blameless (ignorant) as a trunk (or piece of wood). Bora or bura in diverse Lombard dialect means a log to be sawn. In high Lombardy they also used to say ignorant as a 'gerlo', blameless as a pannier, In fact these two idioms can also refer to people who are simple or naive.

Stephen's Bora/Borra confirms the basic line of the other explanations, that the first meaning of "tarocch" should be searched in "WOOD" or something "strongly connected to wood". The basic line is NOT "Fool" or "foolish". Naturally a lot of termini (as "Wood" for instance) can be used in mockery context to explain that somebody is an idiot (donkey, asshole, for instance, but naturally a donkey stays an animal and an asshole a part of the body in its basic line of the used language).

Variously genealogical context appears in the other explanations of Steven's older collection.

In the bora/borra context Stephen offers ...

Intréc come oeuna bora
(As naive/innocent/gullible/ignorant as a cut trunk)

"Innocent" is an interesting association in context of the wedding of Alfonso ... a unicorn (symbol of innocence draws a triumphal chariot transporting the trunc of a tree, to which are bound some captives, which are freed and started to dance.

Michael wrote:

We don't know that this word had that meaning by 1500. We know that two other words "tarochus" "taroch" , meant "fool" by that time in Piedmont. The "cch" spelling is suspect, not the usual ending of a word; it looks more like a word formed from dropping the "i" from "tarocchi", as I think it was Ross that pointed out.

No, we don't know what Bassano precisely meant with his Tarocus and we don't know, what Alione meant with Taroch. They are to us simply "unknown words" and the idea, that it meant "Fool" or "foolish" is only interpretation, derived from later persons comments with the interest to give the words Tarochi, Taraux, Tarocchi used for a card deck type an etymology.

Bassano (as a Lombard likely knowing the word Tarocch and its association to wood) for instance might have used in macaronic style ...

Macaronic refers to text using a mixture of languages, particularly bilingual puns or situations in which the languages are otherwise used in the same context (rather than simply discrete segments of a text being in different languages.
...
Macaronic Latin in particular is a jumbled jargon made up of vernacular words given Latin endings, or for Latin words mixed with the vernacular in a pastiche (compare dog Latin).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaronic_language

... the word "Tarocus" for "Tarocch" associating naive behavior of his opponent.
Well, and as in art the use of double meaning (see Umberto Eco and his early work about semiotics; btw. Eco was born as a Piedmontese) is a known feature he might have also associated the battle of the river Taro.

Well, Depaulis argues about the difference between French Taraux (spoken as "Taro" or "Tarot) and the Italian Tarocchi (spoken in singular in French "taroque" or in Milanese "Tarocch").
It's plausible, that Tarocch with its many wood associations is an old word, "before 1494". Now ... if a famous battle took place at the river "Taro" 1495, what happened to the already known term "Tarocch", rather near to Taro? As in other cases it simply got a new field of associations, which finally ended in the strange connection, that a card deck was named "Tarochi" and finally "Tarocch".
If you've a new popular reigning head (for instance "Adolf H.") you get in a nation children with the name Adolf. If this reigning head proves as very bad finally, the name disappears from the popular lists for names of born children. I guess, nobody doubts, that this has a natural context.
Everybody knows "Waterloo", Belgium (30.000 inhabitants).

The case of the event "battle at the river Taro" is rather complex, as the losers (French soldiers) in short time came back successfully and dominated the political life in Lombardy, driven away back after a 12-years period, and returned again for another 10 years. The context "Taro river" lost importance, as other following battles overshadowed the earlier meaning, but the card deck name Tarocchi stayed, recognized in its etymology finally as rather "foolish".

***********

What we would need: A "tarrocch" in a Milanese text before 1495 ... likely rather difficult to find.

--- delete ---

Tarocch

Vocabolario milanese-italiano, Volume 2
Francesco Cherubini
Dalla Stamperia reale, 1814 - Italian language - 351 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=yQMahL ... on&f=false




Google translates:
"il fusto dell' albero, appena reciso, che serve per far fuoco" with "the trunk of the tree, just cut, which serves to fire"


For ... Scarta Bagattella

Vocabolario milanese-italiano, Volume 1
Francesco Cherubini
1839
https://books.google.de/books?id=9n8CAA ... tt&f=false




Google translates the "Scarta Bagatt" associations....

1. Dar sulla voce.
2. Darla a mosca cieca.
3. Abbassa visiera.
4. Dire il fatto suo franchessa, ed anche Rompognare uno senz'alcuno riguardo.
5. Cavar fuori il Limbello.
6. Sciorre i bracchi.
7. sciorre la bocca al sacco.
8. Dare fuoco alla bombarda.
9. Cominciare a dir male di alcuno.

... not very satisfying in all points ...

1. Give the item.
2. Darla blind man's buff.
3. Lowers the visor.
4. It speaks clearly franchessa, and also one Rompognare senz'alcuno about.
5. Tear out the Limbello.
6. Sciorre spaniels.
7. sciorre the mouth of the bag.
8. Set fire to the bombing.
9. Begin to speak ill of anyone.

I keep to "set fire to the bombing" and understand, that the meaning is any case aggressive

mikeh wrote:SteveM wrote

We already know that Tarocch had the meaning 'fool' (i.e., same as a blockhead or loggerhead, dunce, fool)

We don't know that this word had that meaning by 1500. We know that two other words "tarochus" "taroch" , meant "fool" by that time in Piedmont. The "cch" spelling is suspect, not the usual ending of a word; it looks more like a word formed from dropping the "i" from "tarocchi", as I think it was Ross that pointed out.

Loss of final vowel is typical of Milanese/Lombard dialect (which extended quite large area, including some Swiss cantons for example) . See for example the poem ending in ---occh that Huck posted. This is fairly modern (18th century), and spelling, orthagraphy has probably been influenced by standardization of (Tuscany dialect) Italian -- but still you see the typical dropping of final vowel.

In your latest post you do us good service by connecting Andrea's observations about Spain with someone else's (Vèss), connecting Spain with Lombardy.

Sorry I have caused some confusion -- Vèss is not a person, it is the verb to be (essere) in old Milanese dialect, and on is un. The (Milanese) dialect expression Vèss on tarluch is translated into modern standard Italian as Essere zuccone, testa di legno. To be a blockhead, a wooden head. And the word Tarluch, it is suggested, is related to the Spanish Taruga.

There are dictionaries of various Italian dialect words and proverbs online here:
http://www.simonel.com/dizionario/dizionario0.html

Proverbs and words cover dialects of:

Abruzzo
Basilicata
Calabria
Campania
Emilia Romagna
Friuli Venezia Giulia
Lazio
Liguria
Lombardia
Marche
Molise
Piemonte
Puglia
Sardegna
Sicilia
Toscana
Trentino Alto Adige
Umbria
Valle d'Aosta
Veneto
Canton Ticino
Corsica

(Just because it's dialect, doesn't mean it's old! There is a mix of old and modern.)

Vess on tarloch/tarluch:

http://www.dialettando.com/regioni/page ... curpage=43

Milanese - Italian dictionary

TARLUCCH = TAROCCO

http://www.milanofree.it/libri/andeghee.pdf

mikeh wrote:Andrea here seems to be suggesting that the Castilian word came from the Arabic. .

Tarugo m. wooden plug. [Prob. Iber. and akin to Gaul. tarinca: bolt, pin, and celt. taratrum, both from a base *tarucon: peg. see taladro m. drill < Celt. taratrum.

A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Spanish Language with Families of Words based on Indo-European Roots by Edward A. Roberts

The connection with drill reminds me of an old thread over on AT re: hole-maker (an augur):

From French-English dictionary:

Taraire. as Tariere.
Tarault. as Tariere; also as Tarots.
Tariere:f. An augur.
Related words are:
Tarelle: f. An augur.
Tarelet:. m. A little augur.
Tarots:m. A kind of great cards, whereon many several things are
figured, which make them much more intricate than ordinary ones.

From:
A Dictionarie of the French and English Tongues
Compiled by Randle Cotgrave
London
Printed by Adam Islip
Anno 1611

'tariere' a'boiste' means a 'wimble', which is
an 'auger', that is a hand tool for boring holes. So we are looking at a word meaning auger [hole borer - not at 'augur' as in divination]. Tariere/tarots would thus seem to be related to the modern French:

Taraud: n.m - screw tap
Taraudage: n.m - tapping a hole for a screw; threaded hole
Tarauder (v) tap (a hole for a screw); (Literature) torment.