Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#21
Thanks for reminding us about St. Bernardino, Ross. When I worked on that piece for Andrea, I didn't pay any attention, because it seemed perfectly natural that a deck would have Queens. Then I read Dummett's FMR article, which says that Queens are an indication that a deck is a tarot. Well, a little knowledge, as they say...

Phaeded wrote:
But there is a problem in proposing any date after the 1454 Peace of Lodi for the PMB – why is the King of Swords holding (ironically, IMO) the coat of arms of Venice on his shield and why is the Fortitude card likewise showing the symbol of Venice, arguably the lion of St. Mark (given the circumstances), prostrate before an impending blow from a conquering imperator? Neither would fit the hypothetical circumstances of the PMB issued to commemorate the peace between Milan and Venice. The King of Swords is especially a problem – why would Sforza be portrayed as Venice’s protector (i.e., the shield) when Colleoni held that position now (and Colleoni had been leaning in that direction for some time)?
I don't see the problem. Part of the terms of the Peace of Lodi was that each signatory power would protect the other against threats from without. Wikipedia says:
A principle of a balance of power in Northern Italy was established, one that excluded ambitions of smaller states: the republic of Genoa, the house of Savoy, the Gonzaga and the Este.
So in a sense Sforza is the protector of Venice, and vice versa. Sforza was that once, in a different capacity, and now he is again. Anyway, he gave up being protector of Venice, in the sense of a condottiere, long before 1454.

The Lion on the PMB Fortitude card is being attacked by the man; if the Lion were Venice, that would not be a very diplomatic message to send. In fact the lion was traditionally associated with the virtue of fortitude. It had been a lady with a lion in the CY. For the person to be with the lion represents their bravery, whether it is St. Mark taking a thorn out, Hercules or Samson killing it, or the lady doing whatever she is doing.

Phaeded wrote,
7 EXEMPLARY THEMES (key Paradiso canto in corresponding planetary sphere)
Empress (III.109f), Emperor (VI.1.27f), Love (VIII.2f), Chariot (XII.106f), Wheel of Fortune (XVI.82f), Judgement (XVIII.91f), Death (XXI:4f)
I think more is required than a word or concept simply occurring in a particular canto or group of cantos. These words occur in several cantos. It is a matter of the theme being emphasized in a particular group of cantos, more than in others.

On that score, Empress, Emperor, and Love work well with Dante's canto-groups. Empress Constance is a major figure associated with the Moon, as is Emperor Justinian with the sphere of Mercury, and Cupid, i.e. Love, with Venus. On the other hand, Emperors are also mentioned in canto XX in connection with their want of justice; and the only time the word "empress" is used is at the end, I think referring to the crowned Virgin.

After that the Chariot of the Sun is a possibility. It's the only place where a chariot is mentioned that I can find. And the Sun is the planet most often associated with a chariot, viz. the Phaeton myth. The main theme of the canto is St. Dminic and St. Francis, the two wheels of the chariot, dispelling heresy, in other words bringing light to darkness. It could have been a theme of some hypothetical tarot card. And the golden coin on the CY card does associate the card to the Sun. A woman, Aurora, did ride the solar chariot at dawn. As I recall, she had an older male lover, who could be envisioned as stopping the horses so she could get off. It also, I still maintain, could be a Phaedrean Chariot with its ruly and unruly horses. That fits a Petrarchan interpretation of the card.

In the type A cities (Florence, Bologna), the Chariot card as it appeared later seems more connected with Mars and the triumphal warrior than anything else. Especially after a victory like that of Anghiari that would be the case.

In the circle of Mars, Dante features Death at least as much as Fortune, and much more than in the cantos you associate Death to. The circle of Saturn is that of contemplatives, not death. It is true that there is a brief mention of of death at the place you cite, that of Semele when she beheld Jupiter in all his splendor. But the point is not about death, it is about contemplation of the divine, which for mortal eyes must be tempered.

The circle of Jupiter is about justice, in relation to earthly judgment, more than the Last Judgment. The latter is only brought in as a model for earthly rulers (mentioning several emperors). Anyway, the early name for the card was the Angel. The Angels were in the ninth sphere, an appropriate place for the Angel card from a Dantean perspective (and cosmographic presentations generally).

After that, the type A World card does fit, and the PMB World, but not the CY card with the castles. I am at a loss to know how that card fits any Dantean theme, as opposed to Petrachan Fame.

And surely Death would be before the Last Judgment in the sequence. I could see Hope, Faith, and Charity coming after Death, as the keys to immortality, but not Judgment. (However these virtues figure into several cantos of the Paradiso, faith throughout, hope and charity especially in 2-3 and from 20 on.) Since the circle of Saturn is for contemplatives, an old man with an hour glass would be appropriate, reminding us of Death's approach, or with a lantern, as in the image of Saturn done during the 14th century and preserved in Milan with the Song of the Virtues and Vices.

You insist that there wasn't time between whenever it was in 1440 and October 1441 for a deck with different subjects from Milan. I don't see that at all. Many of the CY cards are unlike anything in the type A cards. If they can design different scenes, they can add a couple of subjects as well, especially if they have increased the number of suit cards. Filippo would have wanted his deck to be an improvement on anything Florence could muster. And Dante, unlike Petrarch, has no particular relationship to Milan. That Petrarch preferred Milan to Florence would have been a nice thing for Filippo to flaunt.

Also, it remains a very big assumption that there were no trionfi decks before 1440 and Anghiari. The diary entry uses the word "tronfi" as though it were a name already established for decks of a certain sort. Just because surviving documents first mention a certain date, that doesn't mean it didn't exist before that date. There are counter-examples from near that time and place (the first surviving mentions of eyeglasses, stating they existed 20 years earlier), and and a vast quantity of records has been lost over time: in Milan by 1450, in Bologna in 1506-7. In this situation, it would be a great coincidence if the first surviving mention was also the first ever example.

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#22
mikeh wrote:Thanks for reminding us about St. Bernardino, Ross. When I worked on that piece for Andrea, I didn't pay any attention, because it seemed perfectly natural that a deck would have Queens. Then I read Dummett's FMR article, which says that Queens are an indication that a deck is a tarot. Well, a little knowledge, as they say...
Dummett's statement is made under limited conditions (not much extant "normal cards"). Actually we don't know ...

Franco Pratesi's recent article about the 1477 document of Bologna ...
http://naibi.net/A/323-BONOZZI-Z.pdf
... comes to the conclusion, that the card relation of normal decks to Trionfi decks in this complex commission is

4 : 5

... which means either 64 : 80 (which would be that, which is suspected for the Cary-Yale Tarocchi) or 60 : 75 or 56 : 70 (which leads to the 5x14 theory) or 52 : 65 (which is suspected for the 13 cards commission of 1422 in Ferrara) or 48 : 60 or 44 : 55 or 40 : 50 with further possibilities above 80 or below 50 cards totally for Trionfi decks.

From these the assumption of a 5x14 deck looks most plausible (56 : 70). In this case there would be 4x14 cards for "normal cards" and it likely would include Queens. So Dummett's remark is not reliable. It might have been as in Germany, where most decks had no queens, but enough had queens, especially in decks with some luxury.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#23
Mikeh wrote:
Part of the terms of the Peace of Lodi was that each signatory power would protect the other against threats from without…So in a sense Sforza is the protector of Venice, and vice versa. The Lion on the PMB Fortitude card is being attacked by the man; if the Lion were Venice, that would not be a very diplomatic message to send. In fact the lion was traditionally associated with the virtue of fortitude. It had been a lady with a lion in the CY. For the person to be with the lion represents their bravery, whether it is St. Mark taking a thorn out, Hercules or Samson killing it, or the lady doing whatever she is doing.
A mutual defense treaty does not make Sforza Venice’s shield-bearer – that was clearly intended to be Colleoni at the time of Lodi and ceremonially confirmed the following year.

More importantly: We know of Sforzan trionfi being produced in Cremona by at least 1452 (when Malatesta is requesting a deck) and that was at the renewal of hostilities with Venice, officially declared 31 Octiber 1452, although aggression was being prepared for on both sides well before that (King, 1994: 284). So are you now proposing differently themed Milanese trumps from pre-Lodi and PMB trumps that are post-Lodi?

But the internal evidence of the PMB points to pre-Lodi. Ross has already demonstrated that the Fortitude card is derived from Petrus de Abano’s description of the 26th degree of Libra decan as Victor Belli: “The Victor in War” (not the “let’s all be friends” decan). Most importantly, the principal figure in the PMB Fortitude is not some long-gowned female Virtue, but a conquering Roman imperator – quite an odd way to celebrate peace (the unoffensive traditional column being broken, such as in the CVI, could have been used here if Lodi was being celebrated).

At all events, I’ve already addressed this issue back in 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=13211&hilit= ... rai#p13211
That the lion without a book could represent Venice is demonstrated by the Venetians themselves in the greatest place of honor in the Doge's palace (and note the Visconti snake of Milan on the shield on Europa's bull representing the defeated League of Cambrai) - the lion with tail curled under almost looks as if the Venetians were belatedly answering the PMB image:
Image
That Venetian painting says "Victor in War" even moreso than the PMB trump, with the victor's laurel wreath held directly above the lion's head.
mikeh wrote:
Phaeded wrote,
7 EXEMPLARY THEMES (key Paradiso canto in corresponding planetary sphere)
Empress (III.109f), Emperor (VI.1.27f), Love (VIII.2f), Chariot (XII.106f), Wheel of Fortune (XVI.82f), Judgement (XVIII.91f), Death (XXI:4f)
I think more is required than a word or concept simply occurring in a particular canto or group of cantos. These words occur in several cantos. It is a matter of the theme being emphasized in a particular group of cantos, more than in others.
I was not looking for individual words, as you and Huck seem to be doing, but extended themes within that plantary sphere’s cantos – the cited lines just being highlights of sorts. Case in point: the Wheel of Fortune is clearly alluded to in the metaphor in the cited canto XVI.82f “turning of the lunar sphere” - but the rise and fall of families is the “leitmotif” throughout the canto. Right at the beginning “insignificant nobility of blood” (l.1) is “emphemeral” (l.3) and then Dante gives us a litany of formerly prominent families that are no more: “if you consider Luni, Urbisaglia / how they’ve ceased to be – and how Chusi / and Senigallia soon will join them.” Etc. Nothing could more perfectly fit the PMB Wheel trump’s circular inscriptions of “I shall reign”, “I am reigning”, “I have reigned”, “I am without reign.”

The only theme that especially bothered me as less than explicit was Death in Temperance/Saturn; but again, the of seven ages of man associated with the planets has Saturn as the last, old age, which is of course associated with death as the inevitable end of old age. But also consider Dante’s source for this planetary scheme – Macrobius’ Commentary on the Somnium Scipionis in which the well-known Neoplatonic belief that the soul took on the influences of the planets as it descended through them (Somn. Scip., I, 12, 13-14) and is necessarily purged as it rises back up to heaven. Dante is thus compelled to compare himself to the immolation of Semele in his final ascent from the planets proper. His celestial rebirth is explicit as he revisits Gemini, his horoscope’s birth sign, and in the same Semele canto we read thus: “Divine light focuses on me, piercing / the radiance that holds me in its womb” (XXI:83-84).
Mikeh wrote
After that, the type A World card does fit, and the PMB World, but not the CY card with the castles. I am at a loss to know how that card fits any Dantean theme, as opposed to Petrachan Fame.
As I explained at length in my original post, Prudence’s elevation as the director of the other virtues and the supreme guide for the “World” of the Church Militant (aspiring to Church Triumphant), came about with Bruni, not Dante. So will you be looking in vain for that connection in the Paradiso. It is one of those "ad hoc rules" that affects the sequence of the trumps, as I discuss in my other Dante main board post on "sequence", here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1063

The CY vignette is a Visconti adaptation (Sforza heading from the Marche to Bianca/Cremona with Ravenna(?) in the background, as I’ve argued eslewhere) of whatever the Anghiari World would have been (perhaps a version of the CVI, although the triumphal arch shape on the CY might have alluded to the recently completed Brunenelleschi dome with Florence’s patroness, Santa Maria del Fiore, atop it, instead of the female [Bianca?] holding the Visconti ducal-crown in the CY).
Mikeh wrote
Also, it remains a very big assumption that there were no trionfi decks before 1440 and Angieri. The diary entry uses the word "tronfi" as though it were a name already established for decks of a certain sort.
When there is a complete lack of evidence of any kind for trumps before 1440, I would not call that a “very big assumption”. All we know is that at that time Giusti knew that "naibi a trionfi" were being produced in Florence. As Ross has also pointed out, that term is so far completely unique, a hapax….in my opinion, because it is describing something new without a commonly known name: a new suit of trumps added to the existing suits of cards.

Unless earlier evidence crops up, I’m content to propose the production of trionfi in Florence in connection with the triumph at Anghiari as the ur-tarot.

Phaeded

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#25
Huck wrote:Another question: Is there any other older document, in which allegory figures - best 7 virtues - are associated to the 7 planets as used in the Chaldean row?
I’ll do you one better – a comparative example explicitly using Dante’s virtue/planets and exempli that just preceded the PMB: Juan de Mena’s Laberinto de Fortuna, written in 1444.

Moreover Mena was in Florence, c. 1442-1443, before releasing his work back in his native Castile. Its possible Filelfo knew of Mena from contacts still in Florence. It is also possible that Filelfo knew of Mena’s work through his friend Íñigo d’Avalos, since Mena was critical of King Alfonso of Naples, while praising his patron King Juan II of Castile (the work could have made its way to Naples from Spain). Filelfo became friends with both Alfonso V of Aragon (pre-conquest of Naples) and his counselor/general d’Avalos via Visconti as they were captured at the naval battle of Ponza in 1435 and then held in Milan as Visconti’s royal captives; when they were released they began anew their the conquest of Naples. A Dutch scholar is supposed to publishing a critical edition of Filelfo’s voluminous correspondence – perhaps there will be mention of Mena in the correspondence between d’Avalos and Filelfo. At this point, all one can safely say is that Mena’s Laberinto de Fortuna is a comparative example of Dante used in a propaganda sense (which is what I argue for the PMB), conceived independently of one another.

Mena’s twist is that instead of traveling through each planetary sphere and encountering exempli in each from the past, present and future (Dante set his poem some 20 years before he wrote parts of it thereby he could describe the future acts of some persons prophetically), in Mena the virtues and planets are theoretically experienced three times each, once each time in his reconstruction of the three Wheels of Fortune (past, present and future), in which historical personages, from classical or Castilian history, who either exemplify or lack the given virtue/planet. Mena essentially takes a 7X3 structure and turns it into a 3X7 (an emphasis on time - three tenses - over space and its 7 planetary levels)

Despite the structural innovation, there is no scholarly debate that this is clearly a Dante-inspired vision; see for instance: Daniel Hartnett, “Biographical Emulation of Dante in Mena's Laberinto de Fortuna and Coplas de los siete pecados mortals”, Hispanic Review, Volume 79, Number 3, Summer 2011; and Street, Florence. "The Allegory of Fortune and the Imitation of Dante in the Laberinto and Coronación of Juan de Mena." Hispanic Review 23 (1955): 1-11.

Like the PMB, Mena’s project likewise has a general/condottiere at its heart, Álvaro de Luna, on whom he places Juan II of Castile’s hope in unifying Spain against his Aragonese enemies (such as Alphonso) and conquering the Andalusian Moors being fought in the Reconquista. Scholars generally accept that Mena delivered the poem to Juan II in person in 1444.

As far as the planetary nature of Mena’s work, I paid way too much for this little book (impossible to find in libraries), Astrology and Juan de Mena's Laberinto de fortuna (Papers of the Medieval Hispanic Research Seminar, Sue Lewis, 1999), and I can only recommend it with reservations as she is a believer in astrology and that clouds her statements about what was influencing Mena and the other historical figures he mentions in his poem.

I can recommend this work without reservation: Luis Beltrán, “The Poet, the King and the Cardinal Virtues in Juan de Mena's Laberinto”, Speculum, Vol. 46, No. 2, Apr., 1971: 318-332.

At all events, the once famous Mena is now an obscure author, even for Spanish speakers today. Nevertheless, and to reiterate, he does provide a very apt comparable for my Dante theory and the PMB.

Phaeded

PS And don’t forget the S. Maria Novella “Spanish Chapel” example of the planets on the back of the thrones of the seven liberal arts (perhaps taken from Dante’s Convivio), with seven exempli of Pythagoras, Euclid, Ptolemy, Tubalcain, Aristotle, Cicero, Donatus below.
Image

All in a Dominican framework relying heavily on Aquinas, but there’s your pictorial example of planets and exempli. Of course Dante’s Commedia was illustrated many times over by the advent of the PMB.

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#26
Phaeded wrote,
So are you now proposing differently themed Milanese trumps from pre-Lodi and PMB trumps that are post-Lodi?
I wasn't talking about a trump. I was talking about the King of Swords. It is not very difficult to add something to a shield. I don't see the PMB lion trump as having anything to do with Venice, pre- or post-Lodi. It's not good diplomacy, unless maybe you're licking your wounds. Peter Albano's "Victory in War" for the PMB Fortitude/Sforza card is probably just a memorial to Francesco, famous for his victories in war. (I am referring to your discussion at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=13210&hilit= ... PMB#p13211).

Actually, looking into it further, I am not convinced that the PMB King of Swords' shield has anything to do with Venice either, even if it is copied from Giotto's "Fortitudo". The Lion is associated with Fortitude, a virtue the warrior must have. A similar lion (albeit with a quince added) was a Sforza stemma, as you showed at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=13210&hilit= ... PMB#p13210.

I wrote:
I think more is required than a word or concept simply occurring in a particular canto or group of cantos. These words occur in several cantos. It is a matter of the theme being emphasized in a particular group of cantos, more than in others.
To which Phaeded replied:
I was not looking for individual words, as you and Huck seem to be doing, but extended themes within that plantary sphere’s cantos – the cited lines just being highlights of sorts. Case in point: the Wheel of Fortune is clearly alluded to in the metaphor in the cited canto XVI.82f “turning of the lunar sphere” -
Good. Since you only gave one-line citations, I thought maybe that's what you were doing, basing your interpretation on one occurrence of the word or concept in a particular stanza. As I said myself in the line from my post that you quoted, it is that a concept is emphasized in a canto or set of cantos that is important, and how it is a main theme of that sphere. I don't deny that Fortune is a main theme of the Mars cantos, and I am glad you gave more justification than just one line. I just think Death is also emphasized.

Your placement of Death is in fact not in accord with anything. In no tarot order is it after the Last Judgment. It makes no sense for it to be after Last Judgment It seems to me that your theory is more acceptable if Death is placed before Judgment, e.g. with Mars, if necessary together with Fortune. Then Judgment, the Angel, can be put with the 9th sphere.

Phaeded wrote,
The only theme that especially bothered me as less than explicit was Death in Temperance/Saturn; but again, the of seven ages of man associated with the planets has Saturn as the last, old age, which is of course associated with death as the inevitable end of old age. But also consider Dante’s source for this planetary scheme – Macrobius’ Commentary on the Somnium Scipionis in which the well-known Neoplatonic belief that the soul took on the influences of the planets as it descended through them (Somn. Scip., I, 12, 13-14) and is necessarily purged as it rises back up to heaven. Dante is thus compelled to compare himself to the immolation of Semele in his final ascent from the planets proper. His celestial rebirth is explicit as he revisits Gemini, his horoscope’s birth sign, and in the same Semele canto we read thus: “Divine light focuses on me, piercing / the radiance that holds me in its womb” (XXI:83-84).
The purgation of the soul ascending through the planets does not result in its death at Saturn. Any death involved, in Macrobius's picture, is before it even gets to the Moon. It descends at birth and ascends at death, through all the spheres. And Dante is not comparing himself to Semele being immolated; it's Beatrice's image comparing herself to Jupiter and explaining that her true light is brighter than what he sees, so she and the other spirits shield it from him for his protection. Looking at XXI:82ff I see nothing about any rebirth. The "me" in your quote is a voice within a light speaking to Dante.

Phaeded wrote,
Mikeh wrote
After that, the type A World card does fit, and the PMB World, but not the CY card with the castles. I am at a loss to know how that card fits any Dantean theme, as opposed to Petrachan Fame.
As I explained at length in my original post, Prudence’s elevation as the director of the other virtues and the supreme guide for the “World” of the Church Militant (aspiring to Church Triumphant), came about with Bruni, not Dante. So will you be looking in vain for that connection in the Paradiso. It is one of those "ad hoc rules" that affects the sequence of the trumps, as I discuss in my other Dante main board post on "sequence", here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1063

The CY vignette is a Visconti adaptation (Sforza heading from the Marche to Bianca/Cremona with Ravenna(?) in the background, as I’ve argued eslewhere) of whatever the Anghiari World would have been (perhaps a version of the CVI, although the triumphal arch shape on the CY might have alluded to the recently completed Brunenelleschi dome with Florence’s patroness, Santa Maria del Fiore, atop it, instead of the female [Bianca?] holding the Visconti ducal-crown in the CY).
Well, Bruni is even worse for you than Dante. Dante was at least on the same side, the Ghibbeline "party of the emperor" as opposed to the Guelfs, that of the pope. Florence was Guelf, that's how they got their money. Bruni was the prime minister, or at least secretary of foreign affairs, for Filippo's arch-enemy. Anyway, the elevation of Prudence to director of the virtues is not Bruni's invention. It is already in Plato's Republic, where Wisdom is the virtue of the rulers, i.e. directors. They are the ones who administer justice, which is the regulation of the virtues among the three classes of the citizens. The Republic, you will recall, was first translated into Latin in Milan, crudely at first but more acceptably just before 1440, preceded by other Republic-inspired writing by the Decembrios. As director of the virtues, it makes just as much sense to have it before the other virtues as after, e.g. as the prototype for the Popess, who still has Prudence's attributes of book and cross-staff.

I remain at a loss to see how a smiling lady with two trumpets and a scene with knights, castles, and a rowboat count as "the church militant". The trumpets suggest Fame. I suppose it could be Prudence, but we really don't have much to go on. I can't see Filippo celebrating a Florentine architectural achievement. That it celebrates Francesco coming to Cremona is possible, but I doubt that the scene was designed with only that purpose, as there are too many odd details in center stage, like the lake and the rowboat. It looks like a Grail Castle visit to me (to which Bianca might be compared). But it would be a rather odd way to represent Prudence. There are no conventional attributes of Prudence anywhere. I expect that this design was one already used in a Milanese deck. There is no reason to suppose that the Cary-Yale was the first in Lombardy, just because it was the first that survived to this day. That would be quite a coincidence. Dummett, after all, speculated that the time of invention was 1410-1430 (Il Mondo e l'Angelo p. 219, posted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1019&p=15162&hilit=1428#p15162, under "Bologna"). Earlier he had said c. 1428 for Milan (p. 106, same post, under "Milan"), back when the first known deck was 1442. But on p. 95 he had used the principle of the 20 year lag to give the time of invention at 1430, based on Pratesi's discovery of a 1450 tarot note in Florence (p. 95, above post, under "Florence"). By p. 219 he seems to have realized his error (he should have subtracted 20 from 1442) and even allowed a little extra. Since Dummett wrote, I think we have understood better how fast inventions could travel via condottiere, from one to another, or by young noble ladies visiting other cities. So I would not put the upper limit on the invention of tarot at 1430, but close to 1440. The lower limit remains the same, because we cannot assume that the invention did in fact travel so quickly at every stage, so that it came to be reported in Florence in 1440 and Ferrara in 1442, and to actually have surviving cards from Milan c. 1442.

Phaeded wrote,
Ross has also pointed out, that term is so far completely unique, a hapax….in my opinion, because it is describing something new without a commonly known name: a new suit of trumps added to the existing suits of cards.
Well, I read him as saying the opposite, at least for that time and place (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=773&p=11107&hilit= ... ibi#p11106; and remember that he is meaning to agree with Zorli's post earlier). But Ross did add that confusing bit at the end, about the hapax. So as long as we are quoting Ross, here's something else he wrote a little later (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=868&p=12849&hilit= ... ibi#p12849):
It seems to me that when Giusti writes "naibi a trionfi", he knows, and expects anyone reading to know, what "naibi" and the accompanying "trionfi" are. So the simplest explanation is that they were already a standard item. The only thing he notes that is unusual is that he had Sigismondo's arms added to them.

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#27
Phaeded,
I don't find a confirmation, that the 14 pictures above "sacred Sciences" (left) and artes (right) in Santa Maria Novella, Spanish chapel, include planets. Are you sure about it? And what shall the other 7 be?

I've for the lower parts ..

Arithmetik Geometrie Astronomie Musik Dialektik Rhetorik Grammatik
Pythagoras Euklid Claudius Ptolemäus Tubal-cain Aristoteles Cicero Priscianus

and

Zivilrecht Kirchenrecht Philosophie Dogmatik Scholastik Mystische Verteidigende
Theologie Theologie
Justinian Junozenz IV/ Pietro Lambardi/ Dionysius Boethius Johannes Augustinus
Clemens V. Aristoteles Areopagite von Damaskus

from http://www.ulrich-menzel.de/odw/1400.html

The 3 men above these 14 unknown objects are according ...
http://counterlightsrantsandblather1.bl ... n-art.html
"the arch-heretics, Averroes, Arius, and Nestor (or Sabellius)" at the feet of Aquinas.
In this context the 14 figures below the 3 heretics might be meant negative, too, though the place looks strange for it?



Anyway, the whole stands in a larger context of the complete chapel.

Just for Dante ... is it probable, that Dante was perceived in Florence around 1366 already positive?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#28
Huck wrote:Phaeded,
I don't find a confirmation, that the 14 pictures above "sacred Sciences" (left) and artes (right) in Santa Maria Novella, Spanish chapel, include planets. Are you sure about it? And what shall the other 7 be?
The roundels on the thrones of the sacred sciences represent the 7 gifts of the holy spirit; those on the thrones of the 7 liberal arts the planets (as pagan deities).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Literary source for the trumps: Dante’s Paradiso

#30
Huck wrote: Thanks.
Do you have a precise relation between "7 gifts" and "7 sacred sciences" and "7 planets" and "7 artes"?
What's your source?
Dante's Convivio for the latter. But note that associatons between the planets in Convivio differs somewhat from that of the Paradiso. But what's the point of a precedent? Exempli are in the virtue/planetary spheres in the Paradiso.

And the fact that you could not identify the planets on the throne backs goes to my point that the planets were often unrecognizable as such...even in the PMB (especially if in the "children" guise of the planets).

Phaeded

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