Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#181
mikeh wrote:
Jacob is also mentioned. Isaac, on the left, gets that of judgment, but I don't know what planet that would be. "The other prophets" get the "two below";
According to kabbalistic tradition Jacob and Joseph are taken as representing Tiphareth and Yesod; Isaac is Geburah and Abraham Chesed; Moses and Aaron with Netzach and Hod ("After he had anointed Saul and David as kings, which made him the equal of Moses and Aaron who rejoiced, the one in Netzach, the other in Hod.")
So you see that much is obscure.
V.True. The planets, or some of them, are associated with the sephiroth in the Zohar, but I don't claim it is easy to follow which goes with which, or if any is followed consistently. A clearer relationship is found in the Tikkunei Zohar, but that has post-Lurianic interpolations, but I am guessing that is the one the Gra redaction is based on.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#182
mikeh wrote: The Valentinian system of Ptolemaeus is in Irenaeus's Against Heresies (http://www.gnosis.org/library/psoph.htm. There are 30 Aeons to start with. (According to Irenaeus this "30" was chosen because of how old Jesus was when he began preaching; or by adding other significant numbers in the life of Jesus (e.g. 12 disciples plus 18 months between the resurrection and the ascension).) After Sophia begets her Desire, Limit (Horos) is begotten from the Father to separate her from her Desire, which apparently is in two parts, her Desire and her passion. Monogenes (Only-begotten) emits Christ and the Holy Spirit. These "completed the number of the Aeons" (not counting Limit), which therefore stops at 32, in this version of Valentinianism.
Your link to Irenaeus is wrong. It's ...
http://gnosis.org/library/advh1.htm

I've opened an own thread for this:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1057
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#183
From what I understand the 32 is a misunderstanding/mistranslation -- there are a couple of versions of Valentiniamism - each include a pair the other doesn't, but each remain at 30.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#184
SteveM wrote:From what I understand the 32 is a misunderstanding/mistranslation -- there are a couple of versions of Valentiniamism - each include a pair the other doesn't, but each remain at 30.
The version of Origines has 30 Aeons + 2 additional figures, Christus + Horus. The 30th aeon "Sophia" = Wisdom plays a very specific role with some bride function. The binary code is used in the construction.

The SY connects the "32" with wisdom in its first sentence. The binary code is used in its construction. The Bahir notes a bride-function, which in later Kabbala is used for Malkuth.

I think, the similarities are strong enough to postulate a connection between both.

The "Song of the bride" in the acts of Thomas is not so intensive "similar". Nonetheless it was clear enough, that Scholem suspected there a correlation to the SY and to the Bahir.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#185
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote: Well, back at home tomorrow night, so I can check myself.
Back home (yeah) -- look on the bookshelf - Peter Hayman, Leonard Glotzer -- no Kaplan:(

Either lost it or left it back in friends attic in UK (sure I have referred to it while being here, but hey, old age).

So, no I can't check it myself:(
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#187
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote: Well, back at home tomorrow night, so I can check myself.
Back home (yeah) -- look on the bookshelf - Peter Hayman, Leonard Glotzer -- no Kaplan:(

Either lost it or left it back in friends attic in UK (sure I have referred to it while being here, but hey, old age).

So, no I can't check it myself:(
But I have been able to find a reference in Glotzer (p.139):

He [Gra] says as follows:

The moon in the physical world represents kindness; therefore it is white, since White is Kindness. This is the same order as in their creation, as it is stated in the Tikunei Zohar*, White is associated with the Moon, red with Mars, yellow-green with the Sun, black with Saturn, and blue with Jupiter. These are the colours of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet, Yesod and Malkuth. Netzach and Hod are associated with Venus and Mercury."**

So at least I can confirm, as I suspected, the Gra's authority/source was the Tikunei.

SteveM

* Tikunei Zohar, Tikun 70
** The Gra's commentary on the SY, ch. 5 MIshnah 8

edited to add:

Friend checked for me, she reports back, p.184:

Although most versions of Sefer Yetzirah set the planets in the order in which they were created, the Gra version, which we are using, follows a different system. It is based on the ordering of the planets as found in the Zohar.[n.52]. There, we find the following relationship between the planets, Sefirot and colors:

Moon Mars Sun Saturn Jupiter Venus Mercury
White Red Yellow Black Blue upper lower
Chesed Gevurah Tiferet Yesod Malkhut Netzach Hod
Sun. Mon. Tues. Fri. Sal. Wed. Thurs.

When the Sefirot and days are placed in their usual order, the planets appear in the order given in our version of Sefer Yeuirah, This version therefore is that which fits most closely to the teachings of the Zohar.

n. 52 (p.371) says:

52. Tikuney Zohar 70 (128b), Kiseh Melekh, ad loc. (58a, No. 18). Also see Gra here. For a different ordering of Sefirot and days, see Maarakhet Elohut 183a.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#188
SteveM wrote,
From what I understand the 32 is a misunderstanding/mistranslation -- there are a couple of versions of Valentiniamism - each include a pair the other doesn't, but each remain at 30.
I checked another translation. Robert Grant's translation, in The Other Bible, has "by these the the Aeons were made perfect." In Greek and Latin the word for "perfect" also means "complete".

Bentley Layton's translation (The Gnostic Scriptures[/io], p. 285) states that "the only-begotten emitted another pair ... This consisted of the anointed (Christ) and the holy spirit; by them the aeons were set in order". They set the aeons in order by teaching them to stick to their place and not try to know the Father, who is unknowable by all except only-begotten.

The quote does not deny that there were 30 aeons originally. It's just that the addition of Christ and Holy Spirit makes the 30 "complete" or "perfect". I see your point about the "mistranslation", if Layton is correct. But is the other version wrong? Aren't the pair Christ-Holy Spirit also aeons? Just not original aeons, but ones added later, to keep there from being more erring Sophias. One was just right, as foreseen by the Father. So the salvific Christ and Holy Spirit--saving not only the Desire of Sophia later, but also the other aeons--couldn't be emitted until later, in this eternal but apparently not timeless realm.

SteveM wrote,
Although most versions of Sefer Yetzirah set the planets in the order in which they were created, the Gra version, which we are using, follows a different system. It is based on the ordering of the planets as found in the Zohar.[n.52]. There, we find the following relationship between the planets, Sefirot and colors:

Moon Mars Sun Saturn Jupiter Venus Mercury
White Red Yellow Black Blue upper lower
Chesed Gevurah Tiferet Yesod Malkhut Netzach Hod
Sun. Mon. Tues. Fri. Sal. Wed. Thurs.

When the Sefirot and days are placed in their usual order, the planets appear in the order given in our version of Sefer Yeuirah, This version therefore is that which fits most closely to the teachings of the Zohar.

n. 52 (p.371) says:

52. Tikuney Zohar 70 (128b), Kiseh Melekh, ad loc. (58a, No. 18). Also see Gra here. For a different ordering of Sefirot and days, see Maarakhet Elohut 183a.

Yes, I see. When I wrote "283" earlier, that was a typo for "183". And I didn't notice the reference to the Zohar on p. 184. You're right. But as you also say, post-Lurianic Zohar. Another reason for questioning the authenticity of the Gra version as reflecting the oldest account.

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#189
Just to beat the dead horse one more time: either the cube or the octohedron model will work for the SY. Both have exactly 12 edges, the required number. But the cube requires seeing yourself as viewing a cube that is tilted, due to your position on a sphere in between the north pole and the equator. And to that extent, it is not very natural.

For the Gra and Long versions, the octohedron model is much more natural than the cube. Not only can the vertices be sefirot, but the directional assignments to the diagonals are naturally grouped in the way that they are, first east, then south, then west, then north. This follows the course of the sun through the ecliptic. Just before the summer solstice, the three "spring" constellations are in the east at dawn, when the sun is rising. When the sun is at midheaven, in the southern sky in the northern hemisphere, the three "summer" constellations are in the east (even though we can't see them). When the sun is setting in the west, the three "autumn" constellations are in the east. When the sun is directly below us (and to the north, although we can't see it), the three "winter" constellations are in the east. And that is what the Gra "tree" shows us.

For the short version, the progression is different: it goes first east (4 lines), then north (2 lines), then west (4 lines), then south (2 lines). That makes no sense on the octohedron model (which has triangular faces), but good and natural sense on the cube model: first the east square, then two of the lines--the north ones--that connect it to the west square, then the west square, and then the two lines--now in the south--that connect it to the east square again. For the lines to be diagonal, the squares have to be tilted, even if that is less natural than the octohedron as-is. And then the constellations are in order from Aries to Pisces, but you have to follow the rule of going to the opposite side of the square first.

However I still see two disadvantages to the octohedron model. One is that they didn't think of the universe as cubical or octohedral, but as spherical. And when you project the diagonal lines of the octohedron onto a sphere, either inside it or outside it, they end up being the equator plus four longitude lines, in other words, a sphere's equivalent of verticals and horizontals. In order to make them diagonal, you have to either tilt the sphere or the viewer inside the sphere. We are in the same situation as in the cube model. However they may not have been thinking about the shape of the universe when they wrote the SY.

The big advantage of the cube model is that it allows for a natural transition from 3d to the 2d "tree" model (as I think SteveM agrees somewhere). There are two tilted squares (east and west) connected by a third square formed by the 2 north and 2 south lines. And from that it is easy to get to the usual "tree" by moving Malkhut from the 2nd position to the 10th. It was that transition, from the 3 dimensional SY to the 2 dimensional "tree", that I was trying to get in the first place. It is the only one that makes sense of later developments. Otherwise, the Long and Gra versions, with an octohedron, make more sense than the Short and the cube, and have the added advantage of separating out cardinal, fixed, and mutable signs. But from the Short, and only the short, can you get the "tree". unless someone has an explanation that hasn't been mentioned. That's all that makes it historically more primitive than the Long and Gra, as in fact the early commentators regarded it, but it is enough.

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#190
mikeh wrote:Just to beat the dead horse one more time: either the cube or the octohedron model will work for the SY. Both have exactly 12 edges, the required number. But the cube requires seeing yourself as viewing a cube that is tilted, due to your position on a sphere in between the north pole and the equator. And to that extent, it is not very natural.
Well, it's not a dead horse from my perspective, but it splits to different topics. The deciding progress in this exciting short-time-exchange (thanks to all, though we we were only few) was, that one has to look for earlier "32s" than the "32 ways of wisdom" and this, well, it leads to gnosticism. And there are a lot of things to learn, at least for me.

So I started "Origines and the Valentianer"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1057

Otherwise we had ...

1. November 27
"Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500"
... this was the title and we kept on it for some time
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049

2. December 4
... shift to Yohanan Alemanno, first together with Pulci
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&start=10#p15804

3. a pause occurred between Christmas and January 24
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... =40#p15948
Alemanno's system in "The Song of Solomon's Ascents"

4. January 30
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... =50#p15972
The system of Alemanno breaks through to the conditions of SY ... and then it comes to I-Ching and Dualism. Also the Bahir appears soon. Scholem and the Ijjun kabbalists, not to forget.

5. February 2
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... =60#p15989
Steve enters. "Cube or diamond", later octahedron for diamond, starts, but also the "5 pairs".

6. February 16
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... =90#p16066
4 different versions of zodiac
Image


7. February 19 /(a lot of posts later)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... 130#p16113
" But possibly we have to leave the horizon of SY for this."
Image

Somehow it turns clear (at least to me), that the different versions of SY in the cube or octohedron question are not important, important is, what's in the unknown background of SY.

8. February 22
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... 150#p16139
Scholem points to the Bride's song.

9. February 22
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... 150#p16141
Model of the Valentinians

10. February 22
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1049&hilit=alemann ... 160#p16142
"32 carnal desires" or "32 demons"

******************

I think I should learn something about gnosticism.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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