## Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#131
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote:Huck, I think I see. Picturing SY chapter one's 6 directional sefirot as points in the middle of a cube comes to the same thing as picturing chapter one's 6 directional sefirot as the vertices of an octohedron.
The SY clearly says diagonal boundaries ( the hebrew words used in fact, as I posted previously, were usually used in context of the diagonal lines of a triangle) . Does a cube model give you diagonal boundaries? I know the octohedron does... but when I imagine myself in a cube I don't see diagonal boundaries -- say for example facing east I see a square and I see horizontal top and bottom, vertical side/middle pillars-- maybe it's a lack of imagination.visualization skills, though while I can see it with the octohedron I can't with the cube...? As I visualize it cube horizontal and vertical boundaries (i.e. NO diagonals), octohedron 12 diagonals... the octohedron thus seems most natural to me.
Kaplan gives two cube pictures at p. 205, one for Gra and one for the short version. The pictures say, that the 12 lines of the cube are the (diagonal) boundaries, in the short version called arms.

As far I understand the word "diagonal" (I'm not English), these are just boundaries, not diagonal boundaries.

The lines of an octahedron inside a cube,however, might easier meet the category "diagonal".

These A-C connections are defined as diagonal by English wiki. That would they be also in the German interpretation.

So possibly one may conclude, that Kaplan didn't understand the "diagonal boundaries" and Steve got it right with the octahedron, but it must be an octahedron inside a cube. Or a sphere or a Globe. Or the word diagonal has mutated with the time and the word is just the rest of an unsolved translation difficulty.

Perhaps the short version sees the arms of the cube? Could this be possible?

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#132
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote: I will assume it's from the south, as the normal orientation these days is north up, south down. But then how could all the versions of the SY have Taurus and Aries (and Gemini) in the east?
Aries is the east sign, and those that follow it '(taursu.Gemini) easterly'. The wheel of the zodiac can appear odd to those unfamiliar with astrology/astronomy. On a zodiacal wheel Aries the east sign is on the left opposite libra )(west) on the right. Cancer (North) at the bottom opposite Capricorn (South) at the top...

ps: I was confused by your reference to Bahir/ Gikatillai tree of seven verticals 3 horizontals and 12 diagonals - unaware there were such? Have you reference?
The Chinese (and possibly others) had South at the top, East at the left, West at the right, North at the bottom. Just following the run of the sun (and the clock) with morning (East), noon (South), evening (West) and midnight (North).
Also natural for spring-summer-autumn-winter.

http://donlehmanjr.com/China/china%20ch ... ina32B.htm

Different to our landmap view.
Aries (Spring) should be correct in the East.

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#133
mikeh wrote: I have re-read all the places I would expect that to be said, and I can't find it. I did a word-search for "sefir" in the various online versions and couldn't find anything about sefiroth connecting to diagonals. The word only occurs in chapter 1, which pertains to the "3d" model. I did a word-search for "diagonals" and only found it in chapters 5 and 6, which pertain to the "2d" model.
How is ABOVE EAST EAST NORTH etc '2d' ? It is a spatial model - that is, 3d? The SY clearly identifies its sefiroth -- what do you think the path of Heh = UPPER EAST diagonal boundary most likely connects to? Beginning and Evil? Or ABOVE and EAST?

Who says ch.1 is 3d and the rest 2? How are 3d dimensial spatial directions that form a 3d model ( whether octohedron. cube, globe. whatever) 2d?

Geometric symbolism emanates from abstract to concrete - point to tetractys forms a tree -- the SY from breath of the Divine to six depths of space. Do you think the 3d directional diagonals are most likely to go to the sephirah of the dimensionless breath of God and Fire from Water or Beginning, end,, good, evil, et a., or to two of the sefiroth identified with space?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#134
Do you have the passage? Or the link? Is it in this "Gate of lights?

I would have to get 22 passages, as the paths for each one appear in each of the 10 chapters of the book. And thsese 22 might not make sense out of context, given the visionary language, I don't know. They are in the Gates of Light, but not much of this book is online.

Will you accept a scan of the English translation's frontispiece? Whoever chose this, perhaps the translator himself, did read the book. It is on page 1 of the book, right after xxxiv. I hoped it would be online somewhere, but I don't see anything exactly reproducing it (the closest is one on a Scientologist's website that has white lines and black background).

Since you haven't given me an alternative name, I will stipulate that the above is a "Gikatilla Tree" but implying nothing about the tree other than its shape and the Hebrew words for the sefirot. I do not even want to be held to the translator's translation of the Hebrew words.

Huck wrote,
Not limited possibilities. But if you make a decision, you can declare the point as North and then at least South is also fixed. And the other six corners can't be on the middle line. 3 are above, and 3 are below.
The corners of the cube I decide on are in the middle of the eight faces of your octohedron, where one point of the octohedron is at the North Pole and another at the South Pole. None of this cube's corners is on the middle line, and none is at a pole.

The sefirot (in chapter 1) are not corners, on my hypothesis. Where does it say the sefirot are corners? As far as I can tell, they can't be corners (in chapter 1), because then they would be in space, like the zodiacal constellations of chapter 5. They are higher (and lower) than that, in "depth of above", etc., not just "above". They are in "nothingness" (with a covenant in the middle of that Nothingness). The Kabbalists recognized that being higher than the constellations had to mean being higher than space--not a fourth or fifth dimension of space, but outside of space completely. They are on the other side of the Fixed Stars, the same place Ezekiel saw his chariot. To help you imagine it, here is a nice 19th century image of someone looking at the sefirot: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/O5491wA9xZo/maxresdefault.jpg. (Ignore the book title, which seems to indicate a subject-matter that has nothing directly to do with what the picture is representing.)

Huck wrote,
As far I understand the word "diagonal" (I'm not English), these are just boundaries, not diagonal boundaries.
When I do a word-search of the SY (at http://hermetic.com/caduceus/qabalah/sefer.html, for example), the word "diagonal" is always with "boundaries". In English "diagonal boundaries" means diagonal boundaries (although I'm not English either). Perhaps I did not understand your point.

In response to your comment about Chinese maps: Huck, I know that there are various ways of representing directions. For example, the Kabbalists often put South on the right and North on the left. I just want to know if someone can tell me, from looking at how the zodiac in Hebrew is superimposed on the globe, what the directions are and where the zodiacal signs are in particular places, so I don't have to learn Hebrew to follow what is being represented.

SteveM wrote
How is ABOVE EAST EAST NORTH etc '2d' ? It is a spatial model - that is, 3d?
I interpret that, in Chapter 5, as descriptions of diagonal lines in a 2-dimensional projection of a 3-dimensional cube. Otherwise its lines wouldn't be diagonal (as Huck notices, the lines in a cube aren't diagonal in 3 dimensions. However the four lines connecting A to C in the 2 dimensional representation of a cube, forming a rhombus, are in fact diagonals, at least on my computer screen.

In a two dimensional projection of that cube's projection onto a sphere, I think it would be closer to a square than a rhombus, but I'm not sure (it doesn't actually matter which it is).

Steve M wrote,
Who says ch.1 is 3d and the rest 2?
That is my hypothesis, which [rest if sentence added next day:] explains "12 diagonal boundaries" better than any other, and also explains how the later diagrams can be related to the SY depiction [delete: seems to account for more than any other, as well as being simpler]. I have read somewhere that some people have wondered whether ch. 1-2 were written at the same time as the rest, but I can't find that at the moment (some Wikipedia article, I think). That of course is not the same thing as my hypothesis. I see no reason why they couldn't have been written at the same time.There is simply a shift in perspective.

SteveM wrote
How are 3d dimensional spatial directions that form a 3d model ( whether octohedron. cube, globe. whatever) 2d?
By projection onto a 2d surface, but in a way in which you can still see what 3 dimensional figure is meant. Then the 2 dimensional figure so obtained can then be rearranged in such a way that its origin is not immediately recognizable.

Steve M wrote
Geometric symbolism emanates from abstract to concrete - point to tetractys forms a tree -- the SY from breath of the Divine to six depths of space. Do you think the 3d directional diagonals go to the sephirah of the dimensionless breath of God and Fire from Water or Beginning, end,, good, evil, et a., or to two of the the sefiroth of space?
If emanation goes from abstract to concrete, then the 6 directional sefiroth emanate the six directions. It is not said how the 6 directional sefiroth were emanated. Perhaps from the same Nothingness that "breath of the Eternal God" was emanated. It would seem that if breath, water, and fire are created, the six dimensions would have to be created along with them, at the same time, to put the three elements into.

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#135
MikeH wrote:
The sefirot (in chapter 1) are not corners, on my hypothesis. Where does it say the sefirot are corners? As far as I can tell, they can't be corners (in chapter 1), because then they would be in space, like the zodiacal constellations of chapter 5. They are higher (and lower) than that, in "depth of above", etc., not just "above". They are in "nothingness" (with a covenant in the middle of that Nothingness). The Kabbalists recognized that being higher than the constellations had to mean being higher than space--not a fourth or fifth dimension of space, but outside of space completely. They are on the other side of the Fixed Stars, the same place Ezekiel saw his chariot. To help you imagine it, here is a nice 19th century image of someone looking at the sefirot: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/O5491wA9xZo/maxresdefault.jpg. (Ignore the book title, which seems to indicate a subject-matter that has nothing directly to do with what the picture is representing.)
... :-) ... the sephiroth are also corners. But possibly we have to leave the horizon of SY for this.

A deeper look at the heart of Greek mythology:
Titan fight part 2 - Kronos is beaten, but Atlas takes the command.
Atlas is beaten. His brother Menoitios crashed in the Tartaros. Brother Prometheus (clever)doesn't fight, but gets later also trouble. Epimetheus marries Pandora and has other problems.

The Olympian 6 (3 female, 3 male) are the winners.

*******************************************************

1 Atlas - carries heaven
2 - wise Prometheus
3 - stupid Epimetheus
----------------------------
4 Zeus - male - marries 7 Hera
5 Hades - male - gets no children
6 Poseiden - male - rapes 9 Demeter
7 Hera - female - marries Zeus
8 Hestia - female - gets no children
9 Demeter - female - raped by Poseidon
-----------------------------
10 Menotios - fallen down to Tartaros

The fight between children of Iapetos against children of Kronos. 10 characters with similarities to Sephiroth definitions, formulated long before SY.

****************************************************

A second tree - 8 other Titan children:

1-3: one 3-dimensional Helios

4-6: the 3 sons of Krios - naturally male - one marries 9 Eos, another Asterie, the 3rd marries Styx, the river of the underworld

7 Leto, daughter of Koios - gets children of Zeus, Apollo + Artemis
8 Asterie, daughter of Koios - gets a daughter of her husband, Hekate - escapes Zeus, becomes island Delos
9 Eos, leaves her husband, mates with mortal man.

10 Selene, Moon

**************************************************************

Before: Uranos + Gaia.
Children:

1-3: groups of 3
3 men with one eye - Kentaurs
3 men with 100 arms - Hekatoncheiren
when castrated by Kronos - 3 Erinyen

4-9: 6 pairs of Titans
Kronos - Rhea
Hyperion - Theia
Krios - Themis
Iapetos - Mnemosyne
Koios - Phoibe
Oceanos - Thetis

10 Aphrodite, when castrated by Kronos

3x3 + 2x6 + 1 = 22

As I said:
... :-) ... the sephiroth are also corners. But possibly we have to leave the horizon of SY for this.

There are 8 trigrams in I-Ching, but you can also interpret them as 10 and also as 6. You can interpret them also a cube with 8 corners, a lot of people have done so.

http://moderniching.com/building-the-cube/

You find more with "I-Ching cube" at google-images.

And the material for the 8 trigrams are also the 10 Sephiroth. They're are naturally differences in the interpretations of SY author and the I-Ching authors. The SY author had a preference for the 10 and the Chinese I-Ching-context is mostly satisfied with 8.
The I-Ching uses just the binary system and that is a universal sorting system good for many practical considerations.
Even good for philosophies or religions and for people, who want to explain, how the world came to existence and how it will be finished.

"Die Weisheit, woher aber kommt sie? Sie kommt aus dem Nichts, das ist das Nichts der Gedanken."
Isaak der Blinde, Kabbalist

The binary code is rather empty.

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#136
mikeh wrote:Huck wrote, about Gikatilla's "tree":
Do you have the passage? Or the link? Is it in this "Gate of lights?

Huck wrote,
As far I understand the word "diagonal" (I'm not English), these are just boundaries, not diagonal boundaries.
When I do a word-search of the SY (at http://hermetic.com/caduceus/qabalah/sefer.html, for example), the word "diagonal" is always with "boundaries". In English "diagonal boundaries" means diagonal boundaries (although I'm not English either). Perhaps I did not understand your point.
The point I made, and that Huck seems to agree with, is that the edges of a cube are not diagonal, and as you note the term diagonal is always used with diagonal/borderline/boundary in the SY -- those of the octohedron however are diagonal. The hebrew word means diagonal, sloping -- in geometry it refers to the diagonal lines of polygons/polygrams, or to the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle, that is for example a (border) line drawn between a point North to a point East would be the hypotenuse/diagonal NE of the triangle thus formed. It is a common term meaning hypotenuse in the Talmud and various midrash.
I interpret that, in Chapter 5, as descriptions of diagonal lines in a 2-dimensional projection of a 3-dimensional cube. Otherwise its lines wouldn't be diagonal (as Huck notices, the lines in a cube aren't diagonal in 3 dimensions. However the four lines connecting A to C in the 2 dimensional representation of a cube, forming a rhombus, are in fact diagonals, at least on my computer screen.

In a two dimensional projection of that cube's projection onto a sphere, I think it would be closer to a square than a rhombus, but I'm not sure (it doesn't actually matter which it is).
The SY is describing a 3d space, not a 2d projection of such. Aslo, in Hebrew geometry the word used here for diagonal refers to the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle - a rhombus doesn't have right angle triangles (otherwise it would be a square).

One way of considering the edges of the cube as diagonal might be to draw/imagine lines from the middle of the cube to the corners, creating a right angle of which the line is then the hypotenuse of the right angle lines drawn from middle to points/corners of the edge/line. But that seems a confusing and unnecessary way of describing it, when a simple unqualifed 'edge' or border would suffice.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#137
I have made one correction to my previous post, changing my claim that my hypothesis, that the SY has 2 pictures, is "simpler and explains more", to "explains ". I don't actually accept "simpler and explains more" as a valid reason for accepting a hypothesis in this line of research, and I can't believe I actually said it. I didn't have a lot of time to re-read and evaluate what I wrote before posting.

I also didn't have time to finish commenting on Huck's and Steve's recent posts, which came fast and furious while I was sleeping.
Wiki states ...
Gikatilla at times criticizes the Sefer Yeẓirah and the Pirḳe Hekalot. The seven heavens (Ḥag. 12a) are identified by him with the seven planets. He holds Maimonides in great esteem even when he opposes him, and quotes him very often. Other authorities quoted by him are Ibn Gabirol, Samuel ibn Naghrela, and Abraham ibn Ezra. Isaac ben Samuel of Acre in his Me'irat 'Enayyim severely criticizes Gikatilla for too free usage of the Holy Name.
Is the attribution of the 7 planets really invented by him? Or were there somebody earlier with it?

In Gates of Light Gikatilla does indeed talk about planets. He says there are 12 of them, 3 for each of the 4 seasons, named the lamb, the bull, the twins, the crab, the lion, the virgin, the scales, the scorpion, the archer, the goat, the bucket, and the fish. Otherwise I can find no mention of planets, or of the particular planets by name, in Gates of Light (Sha'are Orah).

SteveM wrote,
It's a pretty standard representation, nothing you can't find in English -- try a search on 'zodiac globe' or 'astrological globe'
Thanks. I hadn't thought of those keywords as pairs. Looking in Google images for "zodiac globe" I found 3 pictures, all quite different in the aspects of relevance. One had Capricorn at the equator and no indication of directions (but I could guess), one had what I think is Gemini at the Tropic of Cancer (directions unclear, except that the up-down axis seems to be north), and one had all the signs on the same level, with no indications of directions. The last obviously is not like the Hebrew one. None had any text to go with the picture: they were merchandisers. I would have guessed that the one with Gemini at the Tropic of Cancer and the marginally clearer directions is the closest, but that it really should be Gemini on one side and Cancer on the other side of the Tropic of Cancer.

Is that right, with my modification? If so, I can proceed. But I won't until I hear from somebody.[/quote]

Later you write:
Aries is the east sign, and those that follow it '(taursu.Gemini) easterly'. The wheel of the zodiac can appear odd to those unfamiliar with astrology/astronomy. On a zodiacal wheel Aries the east sign is on the left opposite libra )(west) on the right. Cancer (North) at the bottom opposite Capricorn (South) at the top...
I couldn't find that one at all. Cancer at the bottom? Libra at the west? By "west" you have to mean the middle,either facing us or away from us, because the picture has Capricorn and Cancer at the top left and bottom right (whichever is which). I can accept that Cancer is sort of north (along with Gemini) and Capricorn sort of south (Along with Sagittarius), as I think you are close to saying, and the above picture sort of confirms, in an upside down way. But I can't find any picture such as you describe; I don't even see how would one be possible.

SteveM wrote,
The SY clearly identifies its sefiroth -- what do you think the path of Heh = UPPER EAST diagonal boundary most likely connects to? Beginning and Evil? Or ABOVE and EAST?
Good question. In Ch. 1, the sefiroth are not described as connecting to anything. In Ch. 5, there is no mention of sefiroth, so we have to make inferences. First, the sefiroth aren't called "Above" and East". They are called "depth of Above" and "depth of East". I would guess that the combination of those two produced "upper east", On the schematic diagram of ch. 5 (first version, for the Short, at http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k0UiLX-LojY/V ... quare9.JPG), there are 4 possible places for "depth of East", 4 for "depth of Above", and so on. There are also four others, which have to fit into places where "breath of God"/beginning and "breath of breath"/end are opposite and "water of breath"/good" and "fire of water"/evil are opposite. I don't know how many possible combinations fit all these conditions. Maybe more than one. If so, any will do. If none, then those names won't work any more, and others have to be invented. But not names that would imply that only the lower 6 sefirot had zodical constellations produced by them. Perhaps they would be named "1", "2", "3", etc.

In later allegorical writings they didn't bother seeing if the old names would work in the new diagram. The sefirot got renamed in an allegorical way. But the Gra version, at least if Kaplan has correctly pictured it, retained the tradition of giving the mother letters to the horizontals, the doubles to the verticals, and the singles to the diagonals: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KHR6l9reXYM/V ... age-39.JPG, although the diagonals aren't assigned letters the way they would be in mine. If these letters, in the context of the SY, don't stand for astrological entities among other things (units of time, body parts, etc), what do they stand for?

Do you have the passage? Or the link? Is it in this "Gate of lights?
And I replied:
I would have to get 22 passages, as the paths for each one appear in each of the 10 chapters of the book. And these 22 might not make sense out of context, given the visionary language, I don't know.
Actually, I only have to deal with the 5 that are missing from the Portae Lucis frontispiece. First, it has no line between Hod and Netzach. Here is a passage about their connection:
...these two names are defined in the light of each other. For when one is defined the other has to be brought in; thus they end up being defined as one, for they are united together as one.
And here is one about Chesed and Din (5) (p. 254)
The attribute Chesed, with the merit of Creation, is continually reversing harsh judgments when they stand before Elohim in judgment.
Here is one about Binah and Chesed (and also Netzach and Hod) to explain the connection of Binah to Yesod (p. 285):
For the essence of the connection of the nine upper Spheres begins when we count from the Sphere Binah: Binah, Gedullah, Gevurah, Tiferet, Netzach, Hod, Yesod.
For Keter to Tiferet, he says of Tiferet (which he calls YHVH) (p. 147):
This is the name which is likened to the trunk of a tree and all the other Holy Names are like its branches; all are attached to each other from above, below, and all sides.
And (p. 231):
..Jacob, who is in the middle, ascends alone to Keter...
I am still looking for an example between Hochma to Din. But surely if Love (Chesed) can cancel harsh judgments, Wisdom can, too. Who would stop at 21?

Admittedly these connections, except the one from Chesed to Din, are not emphasized as much as the others.

Steve M wrote
Does a cube model give you diagonal boundaries? I know the octohedron does... but when I imagine myself in a cube I don't see diagonal boundaries -- say for example facing east I see a square and I see horizontal top and bottom {EU EB}, vertical side pillars -- maybe it's a lack of imagination.visualization skills, though while I can see it with the octohedron easily I can't with the cube...?
It's not hard; all you have to do is tilt the cube a bit. The Creator's "up" does not have to be the same as ours. In fact, everyone knew that the earth was a sphere; in that case anyone looking "up" would actually be tilted on a slant, most of the time. Only the creator knows which way is "up". The cube tilts between ch. 1 and ch. 3. In ch. 3, we've entered the cosmos as we know it.

By ch. 5 we have a schematic representation of a cube, also tilted, as in http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k0UiLX-LojY/V ... quare9.JPG.

The octohedron needs to be tilted, too. Otherwise only 8 of its edges are diagonal. The others are vertical or horizontal. When the 12 lines are arranged in a circular pattern, only 8 are diagonal, too. The top one is horizontal, and so is the bottom one. The ones on the left and right are vertical. Maybe in your version, in the "diamond", they are all diagonal, I don't know. That was a few pages back.

Huck wrote,
.. ... the sephiroth are also corners
.
I see three spheres in the picture, outside the fixed stars. Two aren't in the corner. Anyway, just because an artist ends a painting with a right and top edge, that doesn't mean that reality stops there; a landscape painter, for example, doesn't mean to be showing the sky ending in a corner just because he ends the painting there. Also, this artist is trying to depict what one sees when one goes outside space, which ends at the fixed stars. Naturally it isan analogical painting, not anything drawn to scale.

Steve's last post seems to me to ignore an important part of what I said, namely, my stipulation that there are two pictures, one for chapter 1 and one for 3 on. If that is denied, then I admit I don't have much of a case, at least for the Sefer Yetzirah. I see no a priori reason to reject it. If by some chance there is, I simply make the cube, etc., the transition to the other trees. Surely it isn't just coincidence that all the "trees" have 3 horizontals, 7 verticals, and 12 diagonals. And there is also the Gra version's diagram, which clearly has the zodiac constellations in order on all the diagonal lines (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rv8bExRR1rc/V ... ge-39a.jpg), the planets in order on the verticals, and the three elements in just the way the SY has them (air in the middle) in chapter 3.

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#138
mikeh wrote: The octohedron needs to be tilted, too. Otherwise only 8 of its edges are diagonal. The others are vertical or horizontal. When the 12 lines are arranged in a circular pattern, only 8 are diagonal, too. The top one is horizontal, and so is the bottom one. The ones on the left and right are vertical.
Only in a 2d projection of 3d space. I do not consider that the SY is describing a 2d projection, but 3d space, in which all 12 lines of the octohedron are diagonal, and in which none of the edges of a cube are. That doesn't mean to say however that later commentators did not use a 2d projection to arrive at the tree(s)... ones which tried to reflect the division of 3, 7, 12 -- possible they used the cube as you say in the transition to get there, but in doing so connect paths to sephiroth that are not so connected in the SY's 3d model.

Good question. In Ch. 1, the sefiroth are not described as connecting to anything.
They are connected as 10 of the 32 paths of Wisdom, 10 sephirah and 22 letters.
In Ch. 5, there is no mention of sefiroth, so we have to make inferences. First, the sefiroth aren't called "Above" and East". They are called "depth of Above" and "depth of East".
Which are 'sealed' by the six rings with the permutations of YHV. From which we also might infer some relationship to the 12 diagonals and the 12 permutations of JHVH attributed to them and also identified with spatial directions.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#139
mikeh wrote: Later you write:
Aries is the east sign, and those that follow it '(taursu.Gemini) easterly'. The wheel of the zodiac can appear odd to those unfamiliar with astrology/astronomy. On a zodiacal wheel Aries the east sign is on the left opposite libra )(west) on the right. Cancer (North) at the bottom opposite Capricorn (South) at the top...
I couldn't find that one at all. Cancer at the bottom? Libra at the west? By "west" you have to mean the middle,either facing us or away from us, because the picture has Capricorn and Cancer at the top left and bottom right (whichever is which). I can accept that Cancer is sort of north (along with Gemini) and Capricorn sort of south (Along with Sagittarius), as I think you are close to saying, and the above picture sort of confirms, in an upside down way. But I can't find any picture such as you describe; I don't even see how would one be possible.
A standard astrological wheel is oriented with East to left, South to the top, West to the right and North to the bottom.

The cardinal signs and associated directions are Aries East, Capricorn South, Libra West and Cancer North.

In the Northern hemisphere, at the Spring Equinox which defines the beginning of Aries in Tropical astrology, the sun rises in Aries in the east, with Capricorn midheaven/South, Libra the opposite sign of Aries descending in the West and Cancer the opposite sign of Capricorn at the Nadir /North. At the Summer solstice when the Sun is at its most Northerly marks the beginning of the Sign Cancer, at the Winter solstice when at its most southerly inclination marks the beginning of Capricorn.

Your image of the 'celestial globe' (a better search term) looks right -- confused about your comment gemini one side cancer other - they are in the right order. Tropic of cancer represents the Sun's most northerly inclination at the Summer Solstice, which defines the beginning of the sign Cancer -- so end of Gemini, beginning of Cancer. As markers they are associated symbolically by association with particular directions but they cycle through them all through their diurnal and annual motions, to a lesser or greater extent within the limits of the ecliptic.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

### Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#140
mikeh wrote: Is the attribution of the 7 planets really invented by him? Or were there somebody earlier with it?

In Gates of Light Gikatilla does indeed talk about planets. He says there are 12 of them, 3 for each of the 4 seasons, named the lamb, the bull, the twins, the crab, the lion, the virgin, the scales, the scorpion, the archer, the goat, the bucket, and the fish. Otherwise I can find no mention of planets, or of the particular planets by name, in Gates of Light (Sha'are Orah).
These are not 7 planets, but the zodiac signs. Actually I meant the attribution of planets to Sephiroth. The planets are already in the SY with the double letters.
Huck wrote,
.. :-) ... the sephiroth are also corners
.
I see three spheres in the picture, outside the fixed stars. Two aren't in the corner. Anyway, just because an artist ends a painting with a right and top edge, that doesn't mean that reality stops there; a landscape painter, for example, doesn't mean to be showing the sky ending in a corner just because he ends the painting there. Also, this artist is trying to depict what one sees when one goes outside space, which ends at the fixed stars. Naturally it isan analogical painting, not anything drawn to scale.
My note wasn't directed to this picture ...

(which got the note: "But possibly we have to leave the horizon of SY for this")

... but to ...

Here each corner of the cube refers to a trigram. And the trigrams are Sephiroth according ...

The trigrams are even in language construction ...

Personal pronouns:
(I, You, it) ... 3, singular
(we, You, they) ... 3, plural
(he, she) ... 2, genus

Grammatical tense:

I was
Imperfect (praeteritum imperfectum)
Pluperfect (plus quam perfectum)

I am
Present (praesens)
Perfect (praeteritum perfectum)

I will be
Future (futurus)
Future perfect (anterior futurus)

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