Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#91
The diagonal order differs from the SY - but there again they all differ to each other (as well as the Bahir) - closest fit is to the long version - blue background indicates matches:
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#92
mikeh wrote: Huck wrote
These SY versions seem to relate to the zodiac Aries-Pisces
Yes, that was the main thing I was trying to understand, how the zodiac worked in these three presentations. In the Long Version, the order of directions doesn't preserve the order of the zodiac. In the Short Version it works well.

Huck wrote
From the Bahir version it's not clear, if it relates to the zodiac. The row contradicts the both other versions.
True. I was assuming that it did relate to the zodiac, since all the others do, and in exactly the same way, but somehow that part got omitted from what we have of the Bahir. Yes, this sequence of directions contradicts the others. Each contradicts the other two. The Bahir version, assuming it doesn't change the zodiac assignments from the others (which are all the same, Aries to Pisces), is intermediary between the Short and the Long. That's what I was trying to say, anyway. I see it as a transition from a visual and architecture-making culture, with words as records of pictures, to a verbal culture whose architecture is formed from words (as in that "wall"), just the reverse of the preceding, losing the idea that letters are abbreviations for things in space. I tend to think of the SY as a set of architectural drawings put into words, and overlaid onto it architectural drawings made from words. I wonder if there are any architectural drawings of the Jerusalem Temple. Or maybe I should visit a synagogue.
Well, I agree, that we have 3 different versions.
Huck wrote,
The zodiac of I-Ching should look like ...

2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6, 5-1, 6-1, 6-2, 1-2, 1-3

Naturally it depends now on the own definitions, which numbers should mean the directions east, south, west, north, upper and lower.
Independent from this definition each of the directions direction should have in the zodiac sequence ...
And that's the 4th (from the SY-I-Ching-relationship).
Is the Chinese zodiac the same as the Western? Is this a problem for comparing the two systems? Also, I don't understand much of what I just quoted from you.
It's as I wrote before ...
The Chinese made their own ways with with their own astrologies. These methods have (as far I know them) nothing with that to do, how the zodiac was used in the "32 ways of wisdom" context.

The 12 Chinese months (hex. 19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23-2-24, comparable to Aquarius 15° till Capricorn and Aquarius 15 ° again, solar cycle), starts at 4/5th of February. The cycle just tells, that Yang energy increases at summer and it falls down in winter. This method is rather common in China, but it's not the only astrology. The solar year is different to the lunar year, which works with 12-13 months for each year, bound in a cycle of 19 years (like the Meton cycle).
These are naturally only the best known astrologies. There are more. And (likely) not all are reported in Western sources. And the reports, that I''ve seen, contradict each other occasionally, or tell different things.

The chapter "Astrologies related to the I-Ching" (106 pages) of "An Anthology of I-Ching" of W.A. Sherrill and W.K.Chu (1977) mentions 5 astrologies related to the I-Ching:
1. Astrology of I-Ching (anther book, that I also have), 516 pages
2. Nine House astrology
3. Astrology of Tzu Wei
4. Astrology of Tzu-Pin
5. Astrology of Tai-I
... and likely there had been much more.

China had 3000 years with the I-Ching. The cultural space in China and the number of once living persons are likely at least comparable to Europe, and Europe had in its culture also a lot about different astrologies, especially if we expand in the details of history.
China had a difficult time in 19/20th century and history didn't work well. Likely a lot of things were lost. China did burn its books with the first emperor (210 BC). Only few books survived then.
It's difficult to say, what China hadn't.

Between this stuff, what I've read earlier, I didn't see an astrology, as I postulate it for SY.

The I-Ching had 6 lines and the Chinese combined each single line with each other line. This makes 5+4+3+2+1=15 combinations, which form 15 hexagrams at each side (yang- and yin-side) and logically 15 complementary hexagram pairs. 3 of the 15 pairs became "mothers" in the SY-world and 12 of the 15 pairs became zodiac signs in the SY-world. The "mothers" are in the I-Ching the line combinations 1-4, 2-5 and 3-6. If one would put the six lines in a cycle (as in the I-Ching globe picture), then 1-4, 2-5 and 3-6 would be "oppositions". If one would put the lines on the 6 side of a cube (as it is done in SY), then they would be also "oppositions".

None of the 5 above given sources of SY (inclusive the Bahir source and my suggestion) uses an opposition (North-South, East-West, Upper-Lower) to define a zodiac sign.
This is logical, cause these are the "mothers". So far they have it understood it correctly. Then the SY-presentations produce contradictions with the 12 other pairs. Either 2,3 or 4 of the presentations must be "wrong" (if one assumes, that only one version could be correct).
I think, that all 4 are wrong or persecute just other ideas.

I have my own idea and this says ...
2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6, 5-1, 6-1, 6-2, 1-2, 1-3 [is correct, as this would make a sort of zodiac in the I-Ching system; the start at "2-3" is Aries]

Naturally it depends now on the own definitions, which numbers should mean the directions east, south, west, north, upper and lower.

As I've used this picture, to show the SY-zodiac in I-Ching-style (starting with Aquarius) I've marked Aries (2-3), which would be the Western Aries-start.

Image


I didn't define the lines. Let's assume:

6 = West
5 = Upper
4 = South
3 = East
2 = Lower
1 = North

Then we have ....

1 North (implies Winter)
3 East (implies Spring)
4 South (implies Summer)
6 West (implies Autumn)

2 Lower implies then the time between Winter and Spring (which is relative cold)
5 Upper implies then the time between Summer and Autumn (which is relative warm)

110000 NORTH LOWER ----- .... Aquarius
101000 NORTH -------- EAST .... Pisces
011000 -------- LOWER EAST .... Aries
010100 SOUTH LOWER ----- .... Taurus
001100 SOUTH -------- EAST .... Gemini
001010 -------- UPPER EAST .... Cancer
000110 SOUTH UPPER ------ .... Leo
000101 SOUTH -------- WEST .... Virgo
000011 -------- UPPER WEST .... Libra
100010 NORTH UPPER ------ .... Scorpio
100001 NORTH -------- WEST .... Sagittarius
010001 -------- LOWER WEST .... Capricorn

This looks like a plausible system.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#95
[quote="Huck"]
Image


Steve, there are errors in Gra and long version.
Kaplan page 204 gives Gra and long as identical and short as different ... so I also saw it in my counting.

***********


Thanks Huck

I am dog/house sitting at the moment, not with my books and going from memory and previous posts, which in this case has let me down - thanks for the correction. But one of the points is, although I got it wrong, is that something like a continuous line/pattern with a sequence is a typical memory device - the fact I cocked it up this time doesn't make the principle wrong...?

Just in my case unreliable!

And perhaps as an astrologer, and someone trying to learn guitar and keyboard for the last few years, I am inclined to see the pythagorean circle everywhere...

edited to add: ah, I see where I went wrong, I put SE/ES down twice in the Gra column, which put the rest out by one (and missed one out completely!) I have correct it.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#96
Attempting to understand, how the other SY presentations worked their order, I feel remembered at one standard arrangement in the I-Ching patterns.



... which in SY is then filled with the names of the 6 directions:



In the ideas of Schau Yung (so written by Diana ffarngton Hook in "I-Ging für Fortgeschrittene" 1975/1983) this principle was expanded to this or a similar order ...

Image

... found at http://www.resistance2010.com/forum/top ... 167&page=2

... a figure, in which from the inner rings is ascended to the outside (from 1/2 units to 1/4 to 1/8 to 1/16 to 1/32 to 1/64 units).

This system is said to have been developed by Schau Yung, but somehow it is as old as the eye of the Horus, which was used to measure volume by "hekats" and the values 1/2, 1/4/, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 and 1/64 of a hekat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekat_%28unit%29


... according Georges Ifrah, Universalgeschichte der Zahlen (1981/1986)

In all the offered SY-orders it's aimed to present East and West in big blocks, whereby upper and lower values tend to alternate.
The Gra and the long version tend to distribute even to East and West and North and South .. this looks most elegant of the used orders, but nonetheless it doesn't work out the zodiac.

Well, as I earlier already stated, one should be sceptical about the truth of the SY text. The author might have gotten the 32 ways by oral traditions or fragmented texts and possibly didn't understand all details. Or he wanted to keep a few things confused.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#97
Huck wrote, about Steve's table presented first
Image


Steve, there are errors in Gra and long version.
Kaplan page 204 gives Gra and long as identical and short as different ... so I also saw it in my counting.
These errors only affect the last 3 of the assignments. The "unicursal diamond" sequence still has the closest matches with the SY, at least to the Gra and Long Versions. I don't doubt that the "unicursal diamond" was made with the Gra and Long Versions in mind. However what is important is the principle on which the assignments are made. The Long Version principle is that of assigning 3 letters to each of the 4 directions. The "unicursal diamond" has the system of proceeding according to the member of the preceding pair not used in the one before that. It's a totally different principle.

It seems to me that the "short version" also uses a circular pattern, based on dissecting the cube according to the SY's instructions, that is, going in the order: west square, north transition to other side, east square, south transition to other side.

Image


If you bend the squares plus "tails" around, you get a circle. This comes, following the assignments of letters to directions, to:

Left (North)_____________________Right (South)
UE = Z = Gemini__________________SE = V = Taurus
NE = H = Aries____________________LE = Ch = Cancer

UN = T = Leo
LN = Y = Virgo

NW = N = Scorpio_________________UW = S = Sagittarius
LW = O = Capricorn_______________SW = L = Libra

________________________________US = Tz = Aquarius
________________________________LS = Q = Pisces

This is then exactly in order, if you follow the principle of advancing diagonally rather than straight across.

There is then a more compact version, bringing the South up to be with the North:

Left (North)_____________________Right (South)
UE = Z = Gemini__________________SE = V = Taurus
NE = H = Aries____________________LE = Ch = Cancer

UN = T = Leo_____________________US = Tz = Aquarius
LN = Y = Virgo____________________LS = Q = Pisces

NW = N = Scorpio_________________UW = S = Sagittarius
LW = O = Capricorn_______________SW = L = Libra

which forms a figure 8 pattern. This is very close to what the Bahir version does. However it doesn't seem to have understood that respecting the order of the zodiac is important, so it puts the north and south group last instead of in the middle. And the corresponding picture is (where the east square is ABCJ, the north/south square is AJDI, but not including J and I, and the west square is GIEF), adding the horizontals and verticals:
Image


The squares derive from the cube according to the following assignments, color coded the same as when I separated the squares:
Image


However after reading the page you linked to, Steve, I have to say that this version is not the most basic. It is a simplification of something that fits the text better but is harder to draw. I did a rough sketch. It is the universe, as a finite sphere with the sefirot as smaller spheres outside it. But if you are in the center of the cosmos and look in each of the 6 directions, 6 of them are there, invisible, just beyond the sphere of the fixed stars. The other 4 are in the 4th and 5th dimensions, which I conceive as a plane surface to be superimposed on the drawing of the cosmos. I put it below the cosmos just to show what it looks like. The earlier drawing (above) made one vertical and the other horizontal. That is a mistake: they are in the same "plane", or whatever the 4th and 5th dimensions are called. It is just the cosmos over time, from the beginning of the universe until its destruction, of variable value throughout (evolution, entropy, or whatever).

Image

The lines are meant to mark off the areas on the surface of the sphere corresponding to the 12 sectors. The lines are meant to be "straight", i.e. "great circle" lines on the sphere. Half of them are on one side of the sphere, in solid lines, and half on the other side, including the 4 half-lines that are on both sides. Each line is associated with a zodiacal constellation. They are at different heights, depending on the sign. Capricorn is the lowest, on the universe's Tropic of Capricorn, and Cancer the highest, on the universe's Tropic of Capricorn. I drew in the universe's arctic and antarctic circles just to show the orientation. The Tropics of course are closer to the equator. It all slants, so as to produce diagonal lines.

AAs for the time and value axes, the line BJ doubles as time (so it's both "Saturn" and "beginning-end"), and AC as value (so both "fire" and "good-evil"). And the sefirot are now points 1-J. That's the easy way to represent 5 dimensions in 2.

Note: An hour after first posting, I added a few things, mainly the drawing with points A-J, which I had inadvertently left out, and the comments about it,

Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#98
Ah -- the error was I put Es/Se in the Gra column twice and it went awry from there -- though the unicursal matches closest the Long version I can't say I had it in mind -- I was trying to see what could be done if one broke away from the imposition of the cube model, and too concentrated on working out how to draw the lines in a continuous sequence (which took me an embarrasing amount of time to work out) - the matches were accidental. The principle is simply to move/trace one continuous line, and to take account of the triangular properties of the letters/name/ numbers of JHV.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: Jewish-Christian interactions in Italy before 1500

#99
... :-) ... I don't understand, what you're doing there. But Steven's product looks similar to mine, but I don't know, why ...

Image


North and South meet perfectly. (Added later: ERROR ... I made myself an error and exchanged two N with two S. The presentation is corrected now).
East and West is moved one step in the sequence, but the row is equal.
U and L have exchanged twice as a group and it also moved one step in the sequence.

***********

The described object might be a cube or an octahedron ....

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octahedron

... one of the platonic bodies, or it might be also 3 lines on a globe, which make the globe look like a round christmas parcel. Like this ...

Image

http://www.polaris.iastate.edu/NorthSta ... ivity1.htm

... made by 3 circle lines, one forming an aequator, the other both connecting North and South and everywhere we've nearly 90 degree at the cutting points. The 6 cutting points (in six directions, seen from the center) cause, that there are 12 direct connection lines. These might be that, what we're talking about.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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