Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#21
The article ....
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=460&p=23519#p23519
... contains a hint to a sort of Karnöffel-version before 1537, which is related to the Tischreden of Martin Luther and possibly also to Melanchthon (?).

Der Nidwaldner Kaiserjass und seine Geschichte (Verbreitung des Kaiserns resp. Karnöffelns)
Autor(en): Leyden, Rudolf von; Zeitschrift: Beiträge zur Geschichte Nidwaldens
Band (Jahr): 37 (1978)
https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/texte/von_leyden.pdf

Die drei ältesten Innerschweizer Kartenspiele und ihre Regeln : Kultur im Kartenspiel (Geschichte des Kaisern)
Autor(en): Kopp, Peter F. Zeitschrift: Der Geschichtsfreund : Mitteilungen des Historischen Vereins Zentralschweiz
Band (Jahr): 139 (1986)
https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/texte/ ... hichte.pdf

Various Links to Karnöffel, Kaisern etc.
https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/geschichte.htm
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#22
Dear Huck, Ross Caldwell, mikeh, and others who are interested,

After having read your latest posts on Karnöffel starting with
Huck wrote:
27 Jul 2014, 20:48
Maybe the theme Karnöffel needs a collection.[...]
and
Huck wrote:
23 Mar 2021, 09:34
Karnöffel was first noted 1427 in Nördlingen. As this is a relative short time before the first note about Trionfi decks (or similar names like ludus triumphorum) the idea of an influence between both games is plausible.
In a later time Karnöffel was also addressed as Kaisern or Kaiserspiel. Franceschini likely found the Imperatori card notes of Ferrara1423.
http://trionfi.com/imperatori-cards-ferrara-1423
"1423, on the day 9 October Giovanni Bianchini to have for one pack of cards of VIII Emperors gilded, which was brought from Florence for Milady Marchesana (Parisina d'Este), which Zoesi * (name of the servant) servant of said Lady had; priced 7 florins, new, and for expenses (of the transport) from Florence to Ferrara 6 Bolognese soldi; in all valued
….. L. XIIII.VI. Bolognese
I Giovanni Bianchini wrote it on the above-written day."
Franco Pratesi once expressed the opinion, that Kaiserspiel and Imperatori game had a relation and were both possibly a similar or the same game.
[...]
A first orientation, what the rules might have been, gives the Mysner poem in the 1450s.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=416&hilit=mysner
[...]
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Mar 2021, 09:43
Recent research by Jonas Richter suggests that the Nördlingen reference to Karnöffel in 1426 is mythical, a conflation of references from secondary sources, which Schreiber brought together.

The next earliest is in 1446. […]
mikeh wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 14:44
That's a lot! Thanks for all of it. I especially liked your link to the Meissner thread, viewtopic.php?f=12&t=416&p=5180&hilit=k ... ffel#p5180
[…]
What does "Karnöffel" mean? Is it "scrotal hernia" as Parlett says, in other words a defect in the genitals? […]
mikeh wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 02:18
It would certainly seem that the Schreiber interpretation of the passage in Müller is the most reasonable. However it is not certain. Richter observes, "The surrounding context shows that Müller often combines details from various sources spanning a century: On a single page he mentions, in order of his text, details from 1442, 1519, 1443, 1419, and 1426. (Müller 1824: 47)." I am not sure that this is a fair comparison, since these latter references are clearly separated from one another. […]
Richter concludes, "It's possible that there actually is a document of that date listing Karnöffeln and other games, but right now, we simply don't have enough to be sure." […]
in the last days (rather: weeks, it took me quite a long time to prepare the material given below, it will be a long read with hopefully very interesting material, including some hypothesis on Imperatori and trionfi at the end. And please forgive if I do not take all of your arguments posted meanwhile the first post quoted above into my reasoning, it would be simply too much..), I want to take up the discussion with my own question
vh0610 wrote:
22 Mar 2021, 21:15
If I may ask: Is that relation between Karnöffel to trionfi/tarocchi already clarified amongst scholars? (If the answer is in your new Karnöffel post, I will find it there).
and with reference to the wonderful website on Karnöffel http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/, there rubrum “Germany” and “The Name Karnöffel” (when in the following http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/ is cited, it includes rubrum “Germany” and “The Name Karnöffel”):

There it is stated
Variously it is suggested, that Karnoeffel might have a relation to the word "Karneval" or "Carneval". The German "Karneval" is given as being in use since 17th century for earlier "Fastnacht", relating back to earlier used forms of French "carnavale" and Italian "carnevale". The origin of that forms is unclear, as probable is given the Latin "carnelevale" ("taking away the meat").(Duden, Etymologie)
[…] I dont know, why these German minors disguised as figures of chess or Karnoeffel and I don't know, where this word carneval comes from ... and I've no intention to follow this line of exploration. Perhaps somebody else is interested. Or?
And yes, I have humbly to admit that I am interested, since I believe that the Carneval-Hypothesis is a strong one when considering Ockham’s Razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

The hypotheses I want to make in the following (denoted with an “H:”) are based on the following assumptions (denoted with an “A:”):

A1: at the invention period, people don’t start playing a new game they don’t understand the name of at the beginning after a short explanation –nowadays and in the last 5000 years (hence, the name should be understandable in their respective time and context more or less straight away)

A2: the name of the game should mark a signifier w.r.t. the gameplay, preferably it should mark a novelty in the gameplay if the game is an evolution of a former game

A3: the name of the game should be formed from the semantic field of the gameplay or from the field of games nearby or known.

A4: the name of the game is first used orally when playing, since it emerges from the gameplay based on A1 to A3, before it is spread and later written down. Hence the written down version can be misspelled or even the first semantic meaning is forgotten when it is written down, if time elapsed enough.

A5: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Simpler said: if you don’t find a proof for something in a certain time –as a written document on the subject--, this does not imply, that it doesn’t exist.

[Sideremark: A5 is only good scientific practice, I somehow want to repeat it to stand on solid ground]
[Sideremark: On A1 – A5, I based recently a new version of the etymology of tarocchi = tarh’occhi in this very forum, see viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2091. I wish to pursue this kind of methodology in order to see if it yields new –hopefully: meaningful-- hypotheses also for Karnöffel.]
[Sideremark: Ross Caldwell had a similar remark with respect to a derivation of Karnöffel from an Arab word on http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
Ross Caldwell added the following consideration: "The first cards are known as Naibs (nayb etc.) It refers to a low court card, perhaps like the Unter. The Karnoeffel is the Unter - right? So there is a potential relation. But why would the German game have the "real" Arabic name for cards in general, while the Italians and Spanish made up a name never apparently used by Arabs?"
]

First, I want to proceed on the etymology of carneval: On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival it is stated that
The word is said to come from the Late Latin expression carne levare, which means "remove meat"; a folk etymology derives it from carne vale, "farewell to meat". In either case, this signifies the approaching fast.
The same entry on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival defines carneval as
Carnival is a Western Christian festive season that occurs before the liturgical season of Lent […] Carnival typically involves public celebrations, including events such as parades, public street parties and other entertainments, combining some elements of a circus. Elaborate costumes and masks allow people to set aside their everyday individuality and experience a heightened sense of social unity.Participants often indulge in excessive consumption of alcohol, meat, and other foods that will be forgone during upcoming Lent. […] Other common features of Carnival include mock battles such as food fights; expressions of social satire; mockery of authorities; costumes of the grotesque body that display exaggerated features such as large noses, bellies, mouths, phalli, or elements of animal bodies; abusive language and degrading acts; depictions of disease and gleeful death; and a general reversal of everyday rules and norms
And its history as
The word Carnival is of Christian origin, and in the Middle Ages, it referred to a period following Epiphany season that reached its climax before midnight on Shrove Tuesday.[British historian John Bossy, in writing on the origin of the practices during Carnival, states that "These were, despite some appearances, Christian in character, and they were medieval in origin: although it has been widely supposed that they continued some kind of pre-Christian cult, there is in fact no evidence that they existed much before 1200."[…] Meat was plentiful during this part of the Christian calendar and it was consumed during Carnival as people abstained from meat consumption during the following liturgical season, Lent.[..] From an anthropological point of view, carnival is a reversal ritual, in which social roles are reversed and norms about desired behavior are suspended.
My hypothesis on the connection between Karnöffel and carneval is as follows:

H1: Karnöffel is the direct written-down spelling of the south-west-German dialectal oral pronunciation of the Late-latin “carneval”. Occasionally long before the mentioned 17th century, Karnöffel was used for carneval in south-west Germany –including other Alemannic regions of Switzerland and Alsace; in short: Johannes von Rheinfelden country—even earlier when the name of the game was invented. Reason is geographical proximity and exchange with Italian/French culture, be it trade, be it the regular communication channels of the catholic church, or be it, for instance, some major event as the Council of Constance (1414-1418); for the latter, see the respective argument on http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/. The Council of Constance is one of the very probable events for this, since it imports northern Italian culture including names of holidays as carneval into the south-west of Germany. There the name carneval is foreign and strange, someone writes in down, someone reads it aloud in German etc.. See also the remark on http://trionfi.com/0/c/
Karnöffel and the Council of Constance
In 1426 in Nördlingen in southern Germany the game Karnöffel is mentioned as an allowed game. From later informations we do know, that this game was also called "Kaiserspiel" or Ludus Caesarum, that is Emperors game and just a very similar name as "Imperatori". However, from later informations we also know, that Karnöffel didn' use special cards but just defined normal cards with a special meaning: Pope, Emperor, Devil etc.., that are figures, which also appear in the Trionfi or Tarot game. We assume, that Imperatori cards and Karnöffel were not identical, but had the same origin, that is a game probably played in the free time at the council of Constance. The name Karnöffel is a riddle.
Me being of south-west Germany, I can first affirm (and other Germans can do that also) that an “V” even in actual German can either be pronounced as “F” or as “W” (the latter being pronounced as “V” in English). Hence, the word carneval, when read aloud in German, could easily be read as “carnefal”. Second, a “C” even in today’s German is read as a “K”, leading to “Karnefal”. Pronounce it in a South-Western-German Dialect –for instance Swabian, which is my emotional tongue (that is: the language with which I was raised), or some Alemannic dialect as from South-Baden, where I have friends-- with a strong stress on the first syllable. This induces a closed “e”-vowel sounding like a half-muted “ö”, and it induces a half-muted last vowel “a”, which in turn induces a strong stress on the “f” plus a shift from the half-muted “a” to a quasi-muted “e”, then we are at: “Karnöffel”. This pronounciation was later written down in local spelling.
For supporting hypothesis H1 further, I consider the following observations, step by step: it is quite important that there are many early and later spellings of Karnöffel as “carnöffel” with an initial “c”: see
Huck wrote:
27 Jul 2014, 20:48
[...]
1455
Molitors Würfellosbuch mentions, dass mit "lützel Augen", small cards, im "wildem Carnöffelspyle" a win could be made
[...]
1664
Titel: Carnüffel-Spiel des Teuffels, dadurch er als ein Tausentkünstler, vielen Millionen Menschen, bisshero Himmel, Seel und Seeligkeit abgewonnensichern/hat, der rohen Welt auss christlicher Intention, zur treuhertzigen Warnung beschrieben ...
[...]
Or
https://books.google.de/books?id=GD1qfZ ... el&f=false
or simply google “Carnöffel” as I did: https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... 28&bih=420

It does not at all make sense to derive Karnöffel from a German word as “knüffeln” (as it is put forward in Grimm’s Wörterbuch, see again http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/), since these words start with a “k”. The initial “c” indicates in German an origin from Latin, as most words in German starting with a “c” have a Latin root - sometimes via Italian, French, or English (or a Greek root when starting with “ch”).
[Sideremark: the other way holds also true: in Latin, there are rare words starting with an K instead of a C, an exception is, e.g., kalendae, where the k rechanged in English in a c: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calends -- in German it is still a K: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalenden]

Furthermore, there is evidence that carneval is even spelled as “carnefale” in historic Italian texts:

In the three editions (1551, 1560, 1563) of “Le piacevoli Notti, nelle quali si contengono le favole” by Giovan-Francesco da Caravaggio Straparola:
https://books.google.de/books?id=ashcAA ... le&f=false
https://books.google.de/books?id=RSY8AA ... le&f=false
https://books.google.de/books?id=W6znXI ... le&f=false

or in “Porretane di m. Sabadino bolognese doue si narra nouelle” by Giovanni Sabadino degli Arienti (1540)
https://books.google.de/books?id=q0wULv ... le&f=false

or in “Facetie”by Gian Francesco Poggio Bracciolini (1531)
https://books.google.de/books?id=DRM8AA ... le&f=false

or in “Trattato de la Charita” by Giovanni Domenico da Firenze (1554)
https://books.google.de/books?id=UTA7AA ... le&f=false

The spelling “carnefal” can even be found right away In “Catharini Dvlcis Schola Italica: Innovata In Qva Praecepta Bene Loqvendi” by Catharina Dulcis (1616)
https://books.google.de/books?id=NzJoAA ... 22&f=false

[to be continued in the next post...]

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#23
[continued from the previous post...]

And hence, if you connect the two sets of evidences, the first containing all the starting “c”- Carnöffel with the second containing all the “f”-spelling-Carnefale, then it becomes quite obvious –at least for me—that the melody goes: carneval, carnefal, carnöfal, carnöffel, karnöffel.

If H1 holds, then this would explain the further remarks on http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
Third Note: Karneval
Curiously one can find under the Karnoeffel documents the following, reported by Jürgen Ludwig: Interessant ist Mathesius’ Bericht (1592), dass zur Fastenzeit Bergleute sich beim Mummenschanz als Figuren des Karnoeffelspiels verkleiden konnten. Zu Luther kamen sie allerdings als Schachfiguren verkleidet ..." ( Translated: "Interesting is the report of Mathesius (1592), that minors at the occasion of Fastnacht disguided as figures of the Karnoeffelspiel. At Luther's time they came disguided as Chess figures ...). Jürgen Ludwigs report further proceeds: "Sebastian Frank, dessen erste Sprichwoertersammlung im Jahre 1532 erschien, hat ein Sprichwort über das Karnoeffelspiel. Dies weist wieder auf die Verwurzelung des Spieles im Bewusstsein des Volkes hin." (Translation:"Sebastian Frank, whose proverb collection appeared in the year 1532, knows a proverb about the Karnoeffel game. This points to deep roots of the game within the mind of the people."). I mention this here just as curiosity. Karnoeffel is related to the Emperor's game, the Emperor's game to the Imperatori decks first mentioned in Florence 1423, and there is (my suggestion) from this game a relation to chess, as shown at other places here, and carneval developed it's first well known forms in Florence, where perhaps this Imperatori deck developed and Lorenzo de Medici was an enthusiastic carnevalist ... and carneval has some parallels to the Italian Trionfi development (triumphal processions, not playing cards).
[…]
We've started to research the case (November 2003). Perhaps we'll get some results.
First Result: Some notes appeared, that disguised Karnoeffel figures already appeared around 1460 - 1480 in the southern German - Suisse region. A note from the below mentioned Karnöffelzunft Willisau reported, that this is a still living tradition, demonstrated by an internet page. Further Information: see below, Note 5.
[…]
5th Note: Carnifex, the Hangman
It exists in the Internet a "Karnöffelzunft Willisau" (Willisau is a location near to Lucern), a Fastnacht community bewaring some older traditions.

Also see the supporting remark http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/, this time under the rubrum “Notes to Karnöffel, Keyserspiel”
Würzburg, between 1443 - 1455)
Petrus Wann in his "Tractatus de contractibus" reports about a card game, that was played in the time of Fürstbischof Gottfried IV. (1443 - 55) during the Fasching time an which showed blasphemous tendencies against God and the Holy Virgin: "Et notandum vidi in Herbipoli, cum ibi essem ... Ille tempori Vaschangali (Fasching) unus quidam ibi ludens ad cartas ludum vocatum imperatoris, cum blasmephemaretdeum et beatumvirginem, captus fuit".


[to be continued in the next post...]

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#24
[continued from the previous post...]

And w.r.t.
Huck wrote:
27 Jul 2014, 21:16
1820
A Karnöffelamt in Neumünster

[...]
1235. Das Karnüffelamt zu Neumünster.
[1005] (S. Jahrb. f. Schleswig Bd. VI. S. 398.)

Es ist bekannt, daß unter allen zu Anfang des 16. Jhdts. in Deutschland getriebenen Kartenspielen das sogenannte Karnüffelspiel das beliebteste war. In Holstein scheint es sehr im Schwunge gewesen zu sein, wenigstens bestand noch im Jahre 1820 in Neumünster das sogenannte Karnüffel-Amt, zu dem freilich das Kartenspiel wohl nur zufällig Veranlassung gab.
[...]
it is clear that it is the other way round, not “the card game gave rise to the Karnüffel-function in the Carneval tradition”, but Carneval kept the Karnüffel-function all the way from the beginning of the 16.th century or even earlier.

Now, question is, what we can learn from it for the game, if Karnöffel, “das wilde Spil” stands for carneval (remember the wikipedia-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival definitions above), does this yield new insight?

I do think so and I have a new hypothesis, but for this, we need a definition first:

D1: An event-situation in a game is defined as an event occurring in the gameplay which changes the “normal” situation and creates an “extra-ordinary” situation.

[Sideremark: this definition borrows its time-concepts (“extra-ordinary” events and “normal” continuous time) from the theory of hybrid systems, a theory I am quite familiar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_system ]

With this definition at hand, the following hypothesis can be formulated:

H2: The Karnöffel is not the depiction of a person, it is the introduction of the event-situation of carneval in the game.

And carneval is (quoting Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival again):
Other common features of Carnival include […] a general reversal of everyday rules and norms
and
From an anthropological point of view, carnival is a reversal ritual, in which social roles are reversed and norms about desired behavior are suspended.

That this is true for Karnöffel can be justified by citing https://www.parlettgames.uk/histocs/karnoeffel.html
As to its social significance, it was so clearly an anarchic game that civic and ecclesiastical authorities often objected to it. Bishop Geiler, as we have seen, saw Karnöffel as the embodiment of that medieval nightmare "the world turned upside down". Ordinary card games, whatever their demerits, at least reflect a sensible social order, with the King superior to the Ober, the Ober to the Unter, and so on. "But now", he complains, "we have a game called Karniffelspiel in which everything is turned upside down: the 3s beat an Ober, the 4 beats the Unter, the 2 and the 6 beat a King; and a card is turned over, so that now one is Kaiser, now another becomes Kaiser, as luck will have it." He would like to burn them all, including "the King, the Kaiser, the Ober, the Banner and the Devil". (The Banner, in Swiss cards, is equivalent to our Ten, though its suit symbol is displayed only once.)
Other references to named cards and disturbed ranking include a satirical work of 1546 in the form of a dialogue between the Pope and the Devil, from which, as Dummett puts it (in The Game of Tarot), "We learn that neither of the Devil and the Pope beats the other; that the Pope beats all the cards, including the Kaiser and the Kings, with the exception of the Karnöffel; that the Karnöffel beats the Pope, the Devil and all other cards; that the Karnöffel is an Unter [that is, the highest card is a Jack]... the 2 beats the King, the Obers and the other Kaisers; and that the 5 is beaten by all other Kaisers, and by the King, Ober, Pope and Karnöffel, but beats only the 10, 9, 8, etc." Karnöffel was evidently enjoyed as a substitute for anarchy, and whether it was forbidden or permitted in various fifteenth-century ordinances obviously hinged more on political perceptions than on the ethics of gambling

[Sideremark: in this sense, Karnöffel was, as a game fitting in one pocket, a portable event-situation creation of carnival all year long – this is why it was so attractive since it held the promise of a “la petite fuite” as the French say for a small escape from every day life as a kind of small freedom feeling.]

[to be continued in the next post...]

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#25
[continued from the previous post...]

On the same webpage https://www.parlettgames.uk/histocs/karnoeffel.html, one finds the gameplay after van Leyden & Dummet, therein the value of the cards:

Trump : properties
Karnöffel = J : beats everything
Pope = 6 : trumps plain suits
Kaiser = 2 : trumps plain suits
3 : trumps plain suits but not Kings
4 : trumps plain suits but not K, Q
5 : trumps plain suits but not K, Q, J
K : no trumping power
Q : no trumping power
10 : no trumping power
9 : no trumping power
8 : no trumping power
The Devil = 7 : if led beaten only by Karnöffel, otherwise loses
Trump 7, the Devil, has a special role. If led to a trick it beats everything except Karnöffel, but if played from any other position it always loses. Note: It may not be led as the first card to the first trick.

Hence, playing the Karnöffel-card is playing the carneval: turning the social order of the plain suits up-side down, Kings can be beaten or trumped over. Playing the Karnöffel-card triggers the event-situation: “Hey, its carneval time!”

That social order is important can be derived from the other trump cards, i.e. the 3 cannot beat Kings, the 4 not Kings and Queens/Ober etc.
If H2 holds, then it is clear that

H3: The Karnöffel does not represent a Landsknecht (sturdy and brutal simple soldier-servant on foot) at the origin. This representation was later adopted by misinterpreting an “Unter” as a Landsknecht.

[Sideremark: Regarding the Second Note on Grimm's Wörterbuch in http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/: it is the other way round – first the Name Karnöffel was given to the event-situation in the card game, alluding to quite brutal south-German Carneval-Traditions . Thereafter, the Karnüffel was falsly identified with the respective Unter, who beats all other cards – and this word field created all derivations being found in the Grimms Wörterbuch as given in detail in http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/ .]

W.r.t. “Unter”: the first German cards followed the Mamluk-Naibi Structure with a King and two magistral deputies (deputy and second deputy), of which one is ranked higher than the other; see http://cards.old.no/1500-mamluk/.
My hypothesis is a military interpretation of this structure for the first German cards. This hypothesis is based on
Huck wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 20:13
[...]
Back to JvR and the most common deck with the court cards King, Ober and Unter. We have no examples of these decks, but enough of later times. Ober and Unter have usually a military outfit, occasionally clearly shown as foot- (Unter) and horse-soldier (Ober). "Ober" means "up" or "top" and Unter means "down"or "bottom". The Unter had the suit sign at bottom, the Ober at top and occasionally with a horse to present the idea "high, up, top". So there are optical signs on the cards, which describe the function of them. One of the optical signs is the condition, that the both lower courts are soldiers, [...]

H4: The “Ober” (over) and the “Unter ” (under) represent in the first German cards nothing else than their counterparts in still todays structure of German military ranks of Oberleutnant (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberleutnant) and Unterleutnant (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterleutnant), however in their basic meaning of “lieu tenant”, that is French for one who holds the place for the king.

[Sideremark: that these are the basic meanings you can derive from the fact that later, military structure even needed an Oberstleutnant (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberstleutnant) too –“oberst” meaning most over.]

An evidence for H3 and H4 is when answering the question: where are all the Landsknechte gone? My answer would be: They are assembled under the “Banner” (which is German for flag):

H5: The 10 of the pip cards is called the “Banner” in Karnöffel, see e.g. https://www.parlettgames.uk/histocs/karnoeffel.html, since the 10 represents a multitude, in this case the multitude of the simple soldiers assembled under the respective flag or banner.


[to be continued in the next post...]

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#26
[continued from the previous post...]

By this structure King, Ober, Unter, Banner, Karnöffel represents in each plain suit a strong military and social order in order to represent stability in normal life.

Each king has its kingdom, but as especially these times of the 13th/14th-century tell: normal life can easily be interrupted in stable kingdoms -- if it is carneval time – or if history lets the emperor pass by:

H6: Not only the Karnöffel/carneval is an event-situation in the game, also when playing the Emperor, the Pope and the Devil and event-situation is triggered.

Playing the Emperor is literally making the Emperor passing by in the kingdom of a plain suit – and hence the King is trumped over. For the Pope, same holds as he is the religious more powerful person than a mere King (remember Canossa 1077 and its subsequent effects). And the Devil is rarely seen or the winner in view of the “normal times” in which moral social order is stabilized, but if he enters the stage as a first person, then even Kings fall under his spell.

Now we can also clarify the question of http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
We've to look at the puzzling double naming of Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game)



H7: The double naming Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game) stems from the fact that as well the Karnoeffel/Carneval and the Emperor are both the major event-situations in the game. Since it is all about trumping over kings and hence for the gameplay both are isomorphic, both names were equally assigned.

[Sideremark: H4 seems to be more direct than http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
They said "Emperor's game" and they meant with that "Emperor Sigismund's game", as he was the current emperor at the moment.
]

Perhaps this also could help to solve “The Riddle: Imperatori and Karnöffel” described on http://trionfi.com/0/c/
The riddle is, what was before 1440? And with that problem we've to find an answer to the question: What are Imperatori cards? Did they have a relation to the game of Karnöffel? Were they a special type of Trionfi deck? Did they've special motifs like Trionfi cards? And if - which were these special motifs? […] Of course all our suggestions to this theme "Imperatori" are highly speculative. There is simply the problem, that there are not much documents.
• Before 1420: The council of Constance might have refreshed the Italian interest in playing cards.

H8: “Imperatori” card of Northern Italy were called in plural “Imperatori”, since the denomination is a pars pro toto denomination for all cards trumping over Kings, see H6 & H7 alike for Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game).


Note that in Karnöffel, the event-situation cards are not fixed but assigned at every game played, determined by the trump colour. When considering https://www.parlettgames.uk/histocs/karnoeffel.html :
Because Karnöffel itself is first mentioned at about the same time as the invention of real trumps, in Tarot games, it may be that some of these features go right back to games played when cards first reached Europe around 1360, and that the invention of trumps may have been inspired by the concept of individual cards with special powers. Which of Tarot and Karnöffel influenced the other, or whether both perpetuated an existing practice, remains at present indeterminable. .
it might be daringly suggested when, e.g. accepting the Council of Constance (1414-1418) being the source of Late-latin/Italian “carneval” for Karnöffel , that

H9: Karnöffel/Kayserspiel were first, since their trumps were not fixed. Having the experience of trumping over kings but at the same time wanting to keep social order reflected in the card game (and not anarchy), led later to a fixed suite of trumps: as well in the possible fifth trumping plain suite reported by Johannes von Rheinfelden
Huck wrote:
25 Mar 2021, 20:09
13-13-13-13-13 ....... The JvR-deck with 65 cards ... possibly one suit was defined as a trump suit
, as well in the imperatori decks, as well in the trionfi decks, respectively.

[Sideremark: considering Ross Caldwell’s remark
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Mar 2021, 09:48
My own view is that card games which break the ranking rules of court cards, or pip cards, like making the ace or another number high, are already assumed by Filippo Maria's 1420 decree about the "old and correct way" to play cards, as well as by John of Rheinfelden's statement about how some games make a common person higher than the nobles. […]
is not conflicting with the line of arguments given above: W.r.t. Fillippo Maria’s 1420 decree – it is shortly after the Council of Constance and I see it rather as a support for the theory since the decree implies that the "old and correct way" of playing cards is threatened or disturbed by a “new way” of playing cards, introduced right after the Council of Counstance in Northern Italy due to the contact with Karnöffel, as this very post wants to hypothesize. That Johannes of Rheinfelden already reports on it is also no problem: it can either by in his time that already the Karnöffel way of not fixed event-situations were used – or, less probably already as fixed event-situations, probably then in the 5x13 deck – and, in this less probable case Karnöffel was invented later, before or perhaps at the Council of Constance, just in order to create an “anarchic” way of the game being played.]

This leads to a tentative hypothesis

H10: Following H7 combined with H8 and H9: the double naming Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game) in Germany is transported to a double naming in Northern Italy: “Imperatori” and : “Trionfi”. “Trionfi” is chosen as a name to counterspeak against the “wild” game name “Karnöffel”, in order to clarifiy that even if it is all about trumping over Kings, Trionfi is not an anarchic wild way, it is a way of virtues with higher moral order (and virtues are included in Trionfis Trumps).

[Sideremark: as far as I found in the literature, “Imperatori” and “Trionfi” appear as names mixed timewise more or less all along the 15th centry, see also http://trionfi.com/0/c/. It does not make sense, at least to me, that both forms coexisted so long if they are not more or less identical. As in viruses –sorry for the comparison—there is high probability in a changing world of Renaissance Northern Italy that one mutant taking over the dominance by time and habit.]

H10: The trumps in imperatori/trionfi and later in tarocchi/tarot are, following D1 and H1, fixed event-situations, not mere representations of persons whenever persons are depicted.

[Sideremark: “fixed” in the double sense of the German “festgestellt”]

For trionfi –and I follow the impressive 5x14-Theory http://trionfi.com/0/f/--, it is evident that there are also situations depicted in the trumps, not only persons. H10 says: let us interpret also the persons as the pope and the empress etc. as event-situations in the sense that the respective card represents an encounter with the person. This might shed some light on the path to go for the 14 -> 22 theory, since the tarot versions represent certainly some ludus morale structure, as nicely laid out in the book of Caldwell, Depaulis and Ponzi: “Con gli occhi et con l’inteletto”.

This leads to the following reflection:

H11: We do need a 0-> 14 theory first for understanding later 14 -> 22 theory.

In other words: why, when following the impressive 5x14-Theory http://trionfi.com/0/f/ do the 14 trumps represent what they represent? How were exactly these 14 trumps fixed?

[Sideremark: I am not aware of an answer to this question. I simply might have overlooked the answer since I am a newcomer to the field].

As a last hypothesis for a 0 -> 14 theory, I’d like to raise in view of all the discussion given above:

H12: In the first 14 trumps of Trionfi, the emperor, the pope and devil stem from Karnöffel, imported after the Council of Constance to Northern Italy. Perhaps the Fool has to be added to this list of the Karnöffel-trinity: Emperor, Pope, Devil.

[Sideremark: Perhaps the Fool has to be added to the H12-list, however, I am not sure. It might be inspired by the Karnöffel, but I am not quite sure since Karnöffel is an event-situation, see H1 and D1, whereas the Fool is a person. Perhaps it is the same misunderstanding later in Germany where the Karnöffel was understood as a person.]

***

Sorry for this post being very long. It is simply the arch of arguments which came to my mind. Hopefully it offers some new reflections for you (still) reading these lines.

Hence I ask you humbly for discussion: What do you think about all these ideas? Any valid arguments from your point of view?

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#27
VH0610 wrote ...
Hence I ask you humbly for discussion: What do you think about all these ideas? Any valid arguments from your point of view?
That seems to be not an easy task ... :-) ... considering the length of your reflection.
Huck wrote: ↑
23 Mar 2021, 10:34
Karnöffel was first noted 1427 in Nördlingen. As this is a relative short time before the first note about Trionfi decks (or similar names like ludus triumphorum) the idea of an influence between both games is plausible.
In a later time Karnöffel was also addressed as Kaisern or Kaiserspiel. Franceschini likely found the Imperatori card notes of Ferrara1423.
I had a memory error. I wrote "1427", but the Nördlingen note was from "1426". Actually it was recently reported, that there are also serious doubts about "1426", cause Jonas Richter offered good arguments, that the note was in reality from 1502 or even from later than 1510. This was recently discussed ...

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2091&start=20#p23550 .... in this thread post 27 ff. initiated by Ross.
Also at " Trionfi.com etc. Nördlingen#445"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=440#p23557 ... in this thread post #445 ff. especially in #447

Since then the date 1426 is probably "very insecure" for Nördlingen and as first date for Karnöffel (or similar) should be regarded Augsburg 1446. If this is true, then we have the problem, that Nördlingen 1426 served as a base for the idea, that Karnöffel (with Pope, Emperor and Devil) might have influenced the Trionfi decks (first date now 1440) and that Augsburg 1446 as oldest date for Karnöffel would promote the idea, that Karnöffel was inspired by Italian Trionfi decks.
Franco Pratesi once made the observation, that the Imperatori decks in Ferrara (1423) and the Karnöffel note of 1426 in Nördlingen creates the assumption, that both might refer to the same deck idea as it was formulated by Geiler von Kaisersberg at the end of 15th century, that Kaisern and Karnöffel would be the same game (well, there are also good reasons to doubt this). Franco's observation would lose some of its value, if the 1426 is changed to a 1446.
Generally one has to observe, that written rules of games are very rare in the early centuries of card playing and if they exist , then they often are written in a manner, that they can lead to misinterpretations.
Generally one can suspect, that there were many different rules for Karnöffel and Kaisern.

You got there a misleading link ..
http://trionfi.com/0/p/07/ ... Notes about Karnöffel, Imperatori, Ludus Caesaris and Keyserspiel
http://trionfi.com/0/p/06/ ... Notes about Imperatori Decks in Ferrara (1423 - 1452)
http://trionfi.com/0/c/05/ ... Opinion to the Origin of the word Karnoeffel
... these are the correct links. These articles are rather old, written more than 15 years ago.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#28
vh0610 wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 21:47
H7: The double naming Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game) stems from the fact that as well the Karnoeffel/Carneval and the Emperor are both the major event-situations in the game. Since it is all about trumping over kings and hence for the gameplay both are isomorphic, both names were equally assigned.

[..]

H8: “Imperatori” card of Northern Italy were called in plural “Imperatori”, since the denomination is a pars pro toto denomination for all cards trumping over Kings, see H6 & H7 alike for Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game).

[..]

H9: Karnöffel/Kayserspiel were first, since their trumps were not fixed. Having the experience of trumping over kings but at the same time wanting to keep social order reflected in the card game (and not anarchy), led later to a fixed suite of trumps: as well in the possible fifth trumping plain suite reported by Johannes von Rheinfelden
Thanks for your ideas! The ones I have quoted above all seem quite plausible. The last one especially is a very good reason to think that a game like Karnöffel may have preceded and influenced tarot.

Some of your other hypotheses seem less plausible, especially the idea that Imperatori and Trionfi were two names for the same game. I don't see any convincing reason for that to be true. On the contrary, we have at least one very important reason to think it is not true, namely the involvement of Petrarch's Trionfi poem cycle in the earliest tarot decks. At least some of the cards, notably the Chariot card, appear to have been based directly on Petrarch's poem cycle, and this would explain the name Trionfi perfectly well. This seems a much more likely hypothesis for that name than the one you present, and if it is correct, then Imperatori would simply have been another card game that people played during the same era that they played Trionfi. Nothing in that scenario is difficult to believe, and it is a much simpler way of explaining the Trionfi name.

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#29
Thanks Huck and Nathanael for your nice answers!

I am quite happy that at least some of the hypotheses seem to yield some new insights. And sorry again for making the posts so long, I simply can't help that I am thinking in long arcs. I try to make it better in the upcoming posts. Perhaps after the positive reaction other people find the energy to take a long read...

Thanks also to Nathaniel for
Nathaniel wrote:
Some of your other hypotheses seem less plausible, especially the idea that Imperatori and Trionfi were two names for the same game. I don't see any convincing reason for that to be true. On the contrary, we have at least one very important reason to think it is not true, namely the involvement of Petrarch's Trionfi poem cycle in the earliest tarot decks. At least some of the cards, notably the Chariot card, appear to have been based directly on Petrarch's poem cycle, and this would explain the name Trionfi perfectly well. This seems a much more likely hypothesis for that name than the one you present, and if it is correct, then Imperatori would simply have been another card game that people played during the same era that they played Trionfi. Nothing in that scenario is difficult to believe, and it is a much simpler way of explaining the Trionfi name.

I do follow your argument, that makes a lot of sense.

Since you did not answer so much on the main hypothesis: What do you think about Karnöffel = carnevale as an event-situation in the gameplay, at least not representing an Unter an misleadingly identifiying the Unter with a Landsknecht?


Furthermore, I have to add three remarks to the posts above on Karnöffel:

1) W.r.t.
H4: The “Ober” (over) and the “Unter ” (under) represent in the first German cards nothing else than their counterparts in still todays structure of German military of the ranks of Oberleutnant (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberleutnant) and Unterleutnant (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterleutnant), however in their basic meaning of “lieu tenant”, that is French for one who holds the place for the king.
Evidently, instead of (French-named) Leutnants, the Ober and Unter should better be (German-named) Mashals. Following the nomenclature of Johannes von Rheinfelden of (1377), given on
http://trionfi.com/0/p/10/t1.php
the social, but also military order given by JvR is Unter-Marschall and Ober-Marschall (marshals in English, stemming from old high german: Mariscalc (from marah = horse and scalc = servant), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal). This does not change the meaning of the post: for this, it is equivalent if Leutnant or Marschall: both are militarily more than Landsknechte, which are assembled as a the multitude (Number 10!) of the banner. Marshals are even the highest ranked military people, and there is an Unter-Marschall as also a very high military rank (in the rank of Generals) even later in history: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldmarschallleutnant
Der Kriegsherr pflegte einem Feldmarschall einen „Untermarschall“ oder „Lieutenant“ beizugeben, der den Feldmarschall zu unterstützen und zu vertreten hatte. […] Er war der zweitniederste Generalsdienstgrad.
[My translation: The warlord/commander-in-chief used to give to a [Ober-]Marshall an “Unter-Marshal” or “Lieutenant”, which had to support the Marshal and to stand in for him. […] He was the second lowest rank of Generals [i.e. a two star General]].


2) W.r.t. the Sideremark to H7
H7: The double naming Karnoeffel or Keyserspiel (Emperor's game) stems from the fact that as well the Karnoeffel/Carneval and the Emperor are both the major event-situations in the game. Since it is all about trumping over kings and hence for the gameplay both are isomorphic, both names were equally assigned.
[Sideremark: H4 seems to be more direct than http://trionfi.com/0/c/05/index.php
]

the respective quote on http://trionfi.com/0/c/05/index.php that at the Council of Constance (1414-1418) “They said "Emperor's game" and they meant with that "Emperor Sigismund's game" has a small error in it an cannot be true, since Sigismund was king at that time, but not emperor. He was crowned emperor in 1433 , see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund ... an_Emperor
Sigismund of Luxembourg (15 February 1368 – 9 December 1437) was prince-elector of Brandenburg from 1378 until 1388 and from 1411 until 1415, king of Hungary and Croatia from 1387, king of Germany from 1411, king of Bohemia from 1419, king of Italy from 1431, and Holy Roman Emperor from 1433 until 1437, and the last male member of the House of Luxembourg.[1]

3) W.r.t. the name Imperatori in Ferrara, given at http://trionfi.com/0/p/06/: first of all, the situation for the northern Italian people in the respective cities is not so much about emperors or not, since they are independent, this is, as far as I understand, from the Italian perspective more a transalpine problem for the German countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_o ... an_Empire) yields
The century between the Humiliation of Canossa (1077) and the Treaty of Venice of 1177 resulted in the formation of city states independent of the Germanic Emperor. A series of wars in Lombardy from 1423 to 1454 reduced the number of competing states in Italy. The next forty years were relatively peaceful in Italy, but in 1494 the peninsula was invaded by France.
Hence, politically, overtrumping kings by the emperor is to be rather represented in a game by German people (since they have the problem all the time) – and they, so the hypothesis goes, transferred it to Northern Italy via the Council of Constance. In this light, there we might test a new hypothesis: at http://trionfi.com/0/p/06/, it is said that
Six short entries from 1443
Then six short entries appear, from which 4 are clearly related to Imperatori-decks, 2 are likely to refer to Imperatori decks cause of context and price. In our analyses we saw a relation between Trionfi productions and Imperatori productions - Imperatori productions seem to have followed Trionfi productions. This gives reason to the suspicion, that the Trionfi production [..] - increased the inerests in Imperatori cards. In the case of this entry we have the reason for a Trionfo festivities with Leonello becoming Signore of Ferrara in January 1442, the production of accompanying Trionfo decks in February 1442 and summer 1442 and the interest in Imperatori decks in 1443. The action of the Trionfo we couldn't identify. Perhaps it was only a projected Trionfo, which never was realised.

H: this new interest in trionfi/imperatori cards in Ferrara around 1440 is related to the Council of Basel/Ferrara/Firenze (1431 - 1449), which follows the same line of influence of the Council of Constance, but only c. 25 years later – the people leaving Basel to Ferrare brought again the Karnöffel/Keyserspiel with them from the Nordic country.

Details on the Council of Basel/Ferrara/Firenze can be found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence, see w.r.t. to our topic:
When the Council was moved from Basel to Ferrara in 1438, some remained at Basel, claiming to be the Council. They elected Amadeus VIII, Duke of Savoy, as Antipope. Driven out of Basel in 1448, they moved to Lausanne, where Felix V, the pope they had elected and the only claimant to the papal throne who ever took the oath that they had prescribed, resigned. The next year, they decreed the closure of what for them was still the Council of Basel.[1]
The new council was transferred to Florence in 1439 because of the danger of plague at Ferrara and because Florence had agreed, against future payment, to finance the Council.[1]
Does this make sense?

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

#30
Karníffeln, verb. reg. act. welches nur in den niedrigen Sprecharten, besonders Niederdeutschlandes üblich ist, mit der Faust durchprügeln oder derb stoßen. Nieders. karnüffeln, knüffeln, Engl. to knubble, Dän. karnifle, Schwed. karnifla. Frisch leitet es auf eine sonderbare Art von dem Franz. ecornifler, schmarotzen, ab, und erkläret es, jemanden als einem Schmarotzer begegnen. Nach dem Wachter bedeutete Karnöffel und Karniffel ehedem einen Hodenbruch, wo vermuthlich das Latein. Hernia mit in der Zusammensetzung ist. Im gemeinen Leben, besonders auf dem Lande, hat man noch ein gewisses Kartenspiel, welches das Karniffelspiel genannt, und mit 48 besonders dazu verfertigten Karniffelkarten gespielet wird, da denn mit solchen Karten spielen gleichfalls karniffeln genannt wird. So fern dieses Wort mit Fäusten schlagen und stoßen bedeutet, leitet Ihre es von dem Wallisischen gleichbedeutenden cernod her, welches in Ansehung der ersten Hälfte des Wortes sehr wahrscheinlich ist, aber doch die letzte immer noch dunkel lässet.
Adelung, Grammatisch-kritisches Wörterbuch der Hochdeutschen Mundart, Band 2. Leipzig 1796, S. 1503.
http://www.zeno.org/Adelung-1793/A/Karniffeln
I would guess, that there at least further 10-20 German writing form variants for the word Karnöffel and in the etymologie of the word family there is an "unknown".

The word and the game Karnöffel went North, not to Italy. North means far North, Scandinavia and even as far as Greenland.
https://www.pagat.com/national/greenland.html
And North means in 16th century also Protestantism. As Tarot meant Catholicism, especially if it contained a Pope and Papessa and not Juno and Jupiter.

I've read, that the word Karneval reached Cologne in 17th century. I've a 3-books - Neuer Koelnischer Sprachschatz by Prof . Dr. Adam Wrede - 1958, roughly 1100 pages, and there ...
Image

"Karneval ... in deutscher Schriftsprache 1699 für Fastnacht gebraucht, allerdings schon 1669 auf die Römische und Venezianische Fastnacht bezogen. ... In Köln erscheint Karneval für Fastnacht erstmalig in einem Befehl des französischen Besatzungsgenerals und Stadtkommandanten Daurier vom 12. Februar 1795 ..."
... and that was a prohibition and "Charles Daurier, *29. Juni 1761, †29. Mai 1833, französischer Brigadegeneral". So it needed a French Revolution and a French Brigadegeneral to make the Cologne people understand, that that, what they knew since 1341 as Fastelovend and in 12th century as Vastavend, was in the reality of 1795 a French carnaval.
But no reason to translate the 15th century Germanic Karnöffel to an Italian Karnevalsjeck .... :-) .

******************

My own suggestion to explain the etymology of Karnöffel was ....
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1111&p=17330&hilit=kanjifah#p17330
... an Arabian "Kanjifah" (= Kartenspiel). But I don't insist on it.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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