Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#11
Phaeded wrote:Supplemental information for the above in regard to Venetian ambassadors:
“…the first creation in Venice of a special register of ambassadors in 1425 was occasioned by the mission to Milan by Paolo Correr (whose report inaugurated the series) resulting from Doge Francesco Foscari’s new policy of expansion on terrafirma….Common to both Venice and Florence, moreover, was the narrowing of the choice among those eligible for embassies at the highest level of their cursus honorum, thereby raising sensitive constitutional and legal issues. Those increasingly fewer individuals who could boast titles of professionalism and privledge were loath to accept their strict hierachal subordination to the competent bodies, especially when there were margins for discussion and a range of options available. They consequently pressed for effective authority in the exercise of diplomatic missions, as rightfully due to men belonging to the innermost circle of the ruling group.” Riccardo Fubini, "Diplomacy and Government in the Italian-States of the 15th Century (Florence and Venice)”, in Politics and Diplomacy in Early Modern Italy: The Structure of Diplomatic Practice, 1450-1800, ed. Daniela Frigo, 2000: 41-42)
Well, here is your source ...
http://books.google.de/books?id=tvEHSKJ ... ini%2C%20D
... and if you read through the lines around it (not just p. 41-42), you get, that the author develops a critical view of the definitions of the diplomatic "rules" of the time, which just followed practical situations. As far I understand his complex text, I personally feel more confirmed in my opinions than contradicted.

Let's stay to the facts.

A difficult-to-read document is read by a French 19th century writer in the manner, that Scipio Caraffa looked to him, as if he is a Venetian "ambassadeur" at the French court in 1446.
As far I can read the handwritten pasage, I cannot identify the word ambassadore or something similar in the text, so I assume, that the 19th century French author used "ambassadeur" in an interpretative manner, and not in a possible specific meaning, which possibly existed in the Venetian terminology of 1425 or 1446 or around this time.

A specific action, the visit of Scipio Carafa in the soldier camp, gives reason to accept the French document interpretation, maybe not with the precise meaning of "ambassadeur" in the Venetian sense (as the ambassadore list of Venice has no information of Scipio Carafa, as you say). At this opportunity Scipio Carafa comes from the Provence and Renee d'Anjou is in this time in Provence, so Scipio might have then more to do with matters concerning Renee's interest and not those of the French court.

Well, it's generally known, that Carafa is a family name in the kingdom of Naples, but the family looks rather extended. A genealogy source has the information, that a Scipio Carafa had been signore at a location near Naples. This might be the same Scipio Carafa, but also might be another. And there are Carafa persons, which engaged for Alfonso of Aragon.
Now you seem to conclude, that, if one or some Carafa were on the side of Alfonso of Aragon, that all Carafa must have been so.

Of course this could have been so, as family members often agreed in such points, but it's contradicted, when a contradiction exists. Unluckily for your thesis, that Scipio Carafa should have been a diplomat in the service of Alfonso, the contradiction exists.
And it isn't such a rare occurrence, that members of a family had disagreed in political questions.

In the handwritten French note I also don't find anything, which looks like "Alfonso" or "Aragon".

*******

Further I don't insist, that Marcello got the deck from the widow of Filippo Maria Visconti, I just see this as a logical possibiltity. If you point to auctions in Milan in this time, then this is another possibility, how the deck has come to Marcello.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#12
Huck wrote
Let's stay to the facts.
A difficult-to-read document is read by a French 19th century writer in the manner, that Scipio Caraffa looked to him, as if he is a Venetian "ambassadeur" at the French court in 1446.
As far I can read the handwritten pasage, I cannot identify the word ambassadore or something similar in the text, so I assume, that the 19th century French author used "ambassadeur" in an interpretative manner, and not in a possible specific meaning, which possibly existed in the Venetian terminology of 1425 or 1446 or around this time.
The word in question that comes right after Carafa’s name and gives his title is scutifer, which is simply a page or squire (according to this webpage, https://www.wordnik.com/words/scutifer: “A shield-bearer; one who bears the shield of his master; a sort of squire; also, a person entitled to a shield (that is, to armorial bearing”). Again, Venice used only its own patricians, especially for sensitive issues of war, not foreign squires.

But why rely on the French perception of who Carafa was? Unlike Naples, for instance, where many of the historical records were blown up by the Germans at the end of WWII, the records exist in Venice – so where is Carafa in these records in regard to a diplomatic mission? The context in which Carafa appears is the Venetian war against Visconti Milan that began in 1446; Venice needed to feel out King Charles VII of France’s position on the spoils that might be made of the Lombard duchy (e.g., his son, Duke of Orleans, wants Piedmont). Considering Alfonso is named as the heir, of course he must have sent someone to Venice (presumably Scipio Carafa) to ferret out what was going on. Carafa in turn then travels with the Venetian delegation to Charles VII. In that context it would have been easy for a French writer to mislabel Carafa, an Italian, as “of Venice”, de la Serenissime Republique..

Another Neapolitan was loyal to Rene (Cossa), so naturally for the sake of “counter-intelligence” on the part of the Neapolitan envoy loyal to Alfonso (Carafa), after he leaves the Venetian delegation to the King he tries to gather information from Rene’s court, presided over at that time by Rene’s wife, Isabelle (to ascertain on the all-important question on whether her husband was intent on invading Naples). From Isabelle he continues on to the camp in Milan where Cossa already was (no reason to reject Carafa because at this point Naples is at war with no one, but had been in league with Venice while Visconti was alive…but Carafa’s original mission no longer has a reason for being, hence him headed home, south for Naples, via Milan). Clearly Scipio is not allied with fellow Neapolitan Cossa or he would have been Rene/Isabelle’s agent – not a first-time visitor sharing initial impressions of that court. A Neapolitan in Rene’s retinue makes sense – he once controlled Naples and had his local allies, just as Alfonso had in the Carafa. A Neapolitan highly placed within Venice’s government makes no historical sense. King again:
In these months, together with Rene’s intimate, the Neapolitan Giovanni Cossa (who had been pursuing the King’s interest in in Italy since 1447), Marcello and Sforza stood outside Milan. Apparently they succeeded in raiding that city, or at least in procuring through willing intermediacies [see my auction theory] from among the Visconti spoils a set of illuminated playing cards which Marcello dispatched to Isabelle of Lorraine, wife of the Angevin king. Rene, in turn, looked to Marcello and Sforza for Venetian support in his quest to regain the Neapolitan throne.” (King, 110).
If you want to persist in trying to understand why Carafa was in Venice and then France, see Paul Perret, Histoire des relationes de la France avec Venise du XIII siècle a l’avenement de Charles VII. 2 vols. Paris: H. Weltier. Better yet, dig into the Venetian archives.

The primary issue, however, that concerns the cards is why did Marcello send them to Isabelle in 1449 after Venice had broken with Sforza? That answer is clear – and backed up by King in regard to explaining the same reason Marcello sent the other illuminated manuscripts to Rene – to try to keep Rene from joining Sforza, against Venice. Even if Scipio was somehow a Venetian agent reporting to Marcello, that does not alter the fundamental nature of the gift – it was a diplomatic gesture aimed at keeping Rene neutral.

Phaeded

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#13
Phaeded wrote: The word in question that comes right after Carafa’s name and gives his title is scutifer, which is simply a page or squire (according to this webpage, https://www.wordnik.com/words/scutifer: “A shield-bearer; one who bears the shield of his master; a sort of squire; also, a person entitled to a shield (that is, to armorial bearing”). Again, Venice used only its own patricians, especially for sensitive issues of war, not foreign squires.
Well, I saw the translation possibility "knight", which sounds logical, if I consider Scipio Carafa as son of Galeotto and grand son of Andrea, as part of the family which controlled some Northern passes in the Abruzzi. It's not clear, if Naples already controlled this region already in 1442.
About Isernia (which is South of the region) I read in Italian wiki ...
Dopo vari passaggi di proprietà della città tra un feudatario ed un altro, nel 1519 fu annessa da Carlo V al Regno di Napoli
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isernia
... which possibly means, that Isernia (and possibly also the Northern regions of it) in 1442 had a somewhat independent state.

The note about Scipio as lord of Pascarola near Naples gives the idea, that Scipio (possibly different to his family in the Abruzzi) had some closer relation to one of the rulers of Naples, maybe to Anjou or to Aragon. The interest of Scipio to surprise Isabella of Lorraine with a nice card deck in 1448/1449 gives to me the idea, that, independent from the other French document, there was a relation to Anjou and not to Aragon. And it is clear, that Scipio came from the Provence.
It's clear, that Cossa had some relation to Marcello, and Giovanni Cossa, better known as Jean Cossa, had a clear positive relation to Renee d'Anjou and a clear political position pro-Anjou and contra-Aragon. From the condition, that Marcello knows both, Cossa and Scipio, it seems logical, that Cossa and Scipio Carafa were part of the same political party.

Scipio might have come to Venice as a common fugitive of some personal trouble in the Naples region, trouble which was felt not only by him but also by others, who were discontent with the Aragon regime. Possibly he simply needed some financial help.
The biography of Alfonso reports rebellions of the aristocraty in the kingdom in Naples for 1444 and 1446. Also it's reported, that Alfonso took Sardinia in 1446, something, which might have alarmed the French court. Alfonso was also interested in the Eastern coast of the Balkan, he had a relation to Skanderbeg (what should have been of interest for the Venetian conditions. Generally Alfonso behaved expansive ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Skanderbeg
1446

Spring - Trough Ragusan diplomats Skanderbeg requested help from the Pope and Kingdom of Hungary to struggle against the Ottomans.[20]
September 27 — Skanderbeg was victorious in the Battle of Otonetë (north of Debar, Macedonia).
Gjergj Arianiti allied with the Kingdom of Naples.[21]

1447

Skanderbeg claimed to Venice all their towns which were pronoia of murdered Lekë Zaharia Altisferi (Dagnum, Drivast, Sati, Gladri and Dushmani) and also Drivast because it belonged to Serbian Despotate before Venice captured it.
To reinforce his intention of gaining control of the former domains of Zeta, Skanderbeg proclaimed himself the heir of the Balšići.
Venice refused Skanderbeg's claim and offered him 1,000 ducats to lay aside all claims.
Skanderbeg refused Venetian offer.
Đurađ Branković, Ottoman vassal and lord of Serbian Despotate, promised to help Skanderbeg to fight against the Venetian Republic.[22]
Skanderbeg was seduced by Alfonso V into making a war against Venice.
Skanderbeg attacked Durrës.[23]
Skanderbeg failed to capture Venetian towns Bar and Ulcinj after unsuccessful attacks he conducted on behalf of the Kingdom of Naples together with forces of Serbian Despotate led by Đurađ Branković and forces of Principality of Zeta led by Stefan Crnojević.[24]
December - Skanderbeg besieged Dagnum, but failed to capture it.
December - Skanderbeg's forces reconstructed Baleč fortress and established a garrison of 2,000 men in it with Marin Span as its commander
December - Venetian forces (led also by Andrija and Kojčin Humoj, together with Simeon Vulkata) drove away Skanderbeg's forces from Baleč garrison.[25][26]
December - Skanderbeg plundered area around Durrës.

1448

March 4 - The Venetian Empire offered a life pension of 100 golden ducats annually for the person who would kill Skanderbeg.[27][28]
Skanderbeg sent a detachment of his troops to the rural areas of the Kingdom of Naples to suppress a rebellion against Alfonso V. Many of them settled there.


It may be assumed, that Venice knew about Alfonso's larger interests already in 1446.

For Scipio ...
The Venetian might have found it convenient to send him with a message to the French court, whereby the major message might have been, that Venice as a true friend supported Renee d'Anjou for the throne of Naples, and that France shouldn't follow a contract between France and Milan, cause Milan had shown interest to enlarge the territiry of Aragon (with Alfonso as heir of Filippo Maria Visconti), what shouldn't be in the interest of France. A clear relation to the recent attack on Cremona and the upcoming new Venetia-Milanese war.

This situation might have easily caused the confusion in the later French interpretation, that Carafa was a Venetian ambassadore ... what he wasn't. He (possibly) was just a Naples fugitive, who searched the team, with which he could fight for his interest. Perhaps Venice just gave him some money to arrive at France. A "cheap" diplomat. Just offered as a useful servant for the French/Provence court. The French king likely passed him to Renee d'Anjou, who was engaged to develop a knight order, which might be of use in the quest of Naples.
But why rely on the French perception of who Carafa was? Unlike Naples, for instance, where many of the historical records were blown up by the Germans at the end of WWII, the records exist in Venice – so where is Carafa in these records in regard to a diplomatic mission? The context in which Carafa appears is the Venetian war against Visconti Milan that began in 1446; Venice needed to feel out King Charles VII of France’s position on the spoils that might be made of the Lombard duchy (e.g., his son, Duke of Orleans, wants Piedmont). Considering Alfonso is named as the heir, of course he must have sent someone to Venice (presumably Scipio Carafa) to ferret out what was going on. Carafa in turn then travels with the Venetian delegation to Charles VII. In that context it would have been easy for a French writer to mislabel Carafa, an Italian, as “of Venice”, de la Serenissime Republique..
As above described, I see here another context.
Another Neapolitan was loyal to Rene (Cossa), so naturally for the sake of “counter-intelligence” on the part of the Neapolitan envoy loyal to Alfonso (Carafa), after he leaves the Venetian delegation to the King he tries to gather information from Rene’s court, presided over at that time by Rene’s wife, Isabelle (to ascertain on the all-important question on whether her husband was intent on invading Naples). From Isabelle he continues on to the camp in Milan where Cossa already was (no reason to reject Carafa because at this point Naples is at war with no one, but had been in league with Venice while Visconti was alive … but Carafa’s original mission no longer has a reason for being, hence him headed home, south for Naples, via Milan).
I don't get, what you write here. There was in August 1447 an Aragonese garnison in Milan to claim the rights of Alfonso in the case of death of Filippo.
And I've difficulties to understand, that "Naples is at war with no one" ... when? And when Naples was in league in Venice, when Vsconti was alive? It should have been in 1446-47 ... What shall then the Aragonese garnison in Milan?

I don't find a clear date, when Alfonso was officially declared as heir ...
1447 14 agosto
Antonio Trivulzio, Teodoro Bossi, Giorgio Lampugnano e Innocenzo Cotta convocano il popolo nell'Arengo. Viene proclamata la Repubblica Ambrosiana. Fra i provvedimenti immediati c'è la costituzione di una commissione di "Deputati sopra le provvisioni dei poveri", che promulga il decreto "Pro hospitalibus et pauperia alogiandi". Viene scacciata la piccola guarnigione aragonese che teneva il castello rivendicando la successione di Alfonso V. I sostenitori della successione aragonese vengono chiamati "bracceschi" per la presenza tra loro di molti capitani che avevano militato con Niccolò Piccinino, erede della tradizione militare di Braccio da Montone.
http://www.storiadimilano.it/cron/dal1426al1450.h
Clearly Scipio is not allied with fellow Neapolitan Cossa or he would have been Rene/Isabelle’s agent – not a first-time visitor sharing initial impressions of that court. A Neapolitan in Rene’s retinue makes sense – he once controlled Naples and had his local allies, just as Alfonso had in the Carafa. A Neapolitan highly placed within Venice’s government makes no historical sense. King again:
In these months, together with Rene’s intimate, the Neapolitan Giovanni Cossa (who had been pursuing the King’s interest in in Italy since 1447), Marcello and Sforza stood outside Milan. Apparently they succeeded in raiding that city, or at least in procuring through willing intermediacies [see my auction theory] from among the Visconti spoils a set of illuminated playing cards which Marcello dispatched to Isabelle of Lorraine, wife of the Angevin king. Rene, in turn, looked to Marcello and Sforza for Venetian support in his quest to regain the Neapolitan throne.” (King, 110).
We know only a few things about Scipio Carafa, and you make it your confession "Clearly Scipio is not allied with fellow Neapolitan Cossa" ... nothing is clear about Scipio Carafa. We have a rather vague note about the ambassadore Scipio Carafa in France, which we even can't read, some not totally reliable genealogical data, where it is even not clear, if it is the same Scipio, and the appearance of Scipio Carafa and Giovanni Cossa in a letter of Marcello.

Somehow I don't understand, how your mind works. The most plausible solution is indeed, that Cossa and Scipio Carafa are connected and part of the same political party. King can add in this question nothing, which we don't know better (it isn't plausible, that she knew this letter or - if she knew it - if she was interested in the book of Martiano). If King knew another document about Scipio Carafa, that would be nice, if we wold know about it.

If you want to persist in trying to understand why Carafa was in Venice and then France, see Paul Perret, Histoire des relationes de la France avec Venise du XIII siècle a l’avenement de Charles VII. 2 vols. Paris: H. Weltier. Better yet, dig into the Venetian archives.

Interesting source. Why don't you give a direct link in such cases ...
https://archive.org/stream/histoiredesr ... 2/mode/2up
... but I found nothing, what helps in this matter.
The primary issue, however, that concerns the cards is why did Marcello send them to Isabelle in 1449 after Venice had broken with Sforza? That answer is clear – and backed up by King in regard to explaining the same reason Marcello sent the other illuminated manuscripts to Rene – to try to keep Rene from joining Sforza, against Venice. Even if Scipio was somehow a Venetian agent reporting to Marcello, that does not alter the fundamental nature of the gift – it was a diplomatic gesture aimed at keeping Rene neutral.
Marcello writes a long story, how he found the book in the interest to get a present for Isabelle. I assume, that this story is true.
Naturally I can imagine, that the whole story is invented by Marcello and I can replace it with "Marcello found the cards by lucky accident, and then considered it a good investment to send it to Isabelle to get a desired political result at a specific moment, which was given in November 1449."
But Marcello offers a witness to his story: Scipio Carafa, and it would be likely possible, that Isabella could ask Scipio about it. So Marcello's forgery wouldn't be sure to be not detected.
Further Marcello has a second piece of evidence for his story: the other cards which Scipio Carafa saw.

I think, you're overstretching the situation with your interpretation. Venice thought in November, that Sforza couldn't attack Milan. And they tried to present the case against Sforza, as if they hadn't broken their contract.

Milan thought, that Sforza couldn't attack, they made a big peace trionfo in November. It sounds, as if everybody besides Sforza thought, that Sforza couldn't attack.

Sforza attacked around Christmas 1449 (so long enough after November 1449) and everybody was surprized. So I've read it variously.

As far I got it (just in my memory), there was a disturbance between Venetian Senate and Marcello. Marcello didn't agree, how Sforza was treated (so said in a later poem by the Hungarian poet in Ferrara). He went to Monselice, and Venice expected him to be somewhere else. Is my memory wrong?

************

Looking through your source (Paul Perret) again, I find these pages interesting ...

Image


After the battle at Caravaggio (big loss for Venice, big win for Sforza, commissioned by the Ambrosian republic) tried to engage the duke of Orleans.

Image


Sforza and Venice agree on peace between themselves and on war against the Ambrosian republic. The duc of Orleans is disappointed. The Ambrosian republic gets close to Alphonso.

Image


Here's the letter exchange between Sforza and Renee mentioned, the letter of 24 February 1449 we already discussed. The starting letter of the communication by Rene happened "end of the year 1448", and it was brought by Honoratus de Berre, one of Rene's knights (there's a long time between answer and reply and it might be, that there were 2 other letters between, especially as the details of the letter at end of the year 1448 seem to have been lost) .

Before, at 13 November 1448 Rene had written 3 conspirative letters in matters of Naples. The letter to Sforza seems to have expressed a request for military help.

In my general assumption about the time of Scipio Carafa in the soldier camp I'd thought, that it must have happened in March/April 1449, with the answer from Rene on the request of Marcello (which was transported by Sforza's letter.
However, after some reflection I think it's also possible, that Scipio Carafa arrived already before Sforza wrote his letter, and before Marcello engaged to become Rene's friend. Maybe the first Rene-letter (end of 1448) had caused Marcello's special interest, maybe, that the idea with the playing card deck to win the heart of Isabelle was already born before Sforza's letter at 24 February. In this case Scipio Carafa might have accompanied Honorat de Berre.

Image


This gives some dates connected to Giovanni Cossa.







Phaeded[/quote]
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#14
Huck wrote
Somehow I don't understand, how your mind works. The most plausible solution is indeed, that Cossa and Scipio Carafa are connected and part of the same political party. King can add in this question nothing, which we don't know better (it isn't plausible, that she knew this letter or - if she knew it - if she was interested in the book of Martiano).
Here’s how my mind works – tell me where it goes astray:
1. Carafa is from a Neapolitan baronial family with the highest connections to Alfonso; indeed, that family helped make his entry into Naples possible (mainly via Malizia and Diomede Carafa).
2. There is no evidence that Scipio is estranged from his family; on the contrary, we have information that he holds a minor fief only 14 km northeast of Naples (of which the French interpret him as being the ‘scutifer’ – which one would assume means that he is a “shield-bearing” vassal beholden to the ruler of the local, larger principality)
3. No one associated with Rene would have been allowed by Alfonso to hold a fief that close to Naples. Cossa himself lives in exile with Rene. Cossa had been with Rene since he fled Naples via the sea in 1443. If Scipio were in Cossa’s “party”, where is the record of him as exiled anywhere? The only fact we have of Scipio’s domicile is right outside Naples.
4. When Marcello is writing in late 1449, Venice and Naples are already aligned against Sforza, who Venice betrayed for the last time in September of that year. Sforza is trying to get Rene to join him in the field (with the vague promise that Sforza will help Rene take back Naples). Marcello is trying to keep Rene out of the war. By mentioning Scipio, a recent acquintance of Isabelle, Marcello is indirectly trying to win her over to the the Venetian cause, but the sharper side of his argument is the implicit pointing out that Venice will now be bolstered by an alliance with Naples – so essentially, ‘tell your husband to beware.’ If Scipio had no connection to the looming Naples-Venice army to be aligned aginst Sforza - and would-be ally Rene - then why mention him at all? My gawd, your own web-published notes speak to this alliance: “...Venezia wished just at this time the energies of Naples occupied with a fresh war with Rene d'Anjou.” http://trionfi.com/jacopo-antonio-marce ... e-lorraine

Scipio obviously visited Isabelle for intelligence/diplomatic purposes. For whom? According to you, this member of a prominent Neapolitan family, top advisors to King Alfonso, holder of a fief just outside of Naples, is doing Cossa/Rene’s bidding...even though Cossa/Rene are about to go to war against Marcello’s Venice (and Scipio’s Naples).

Phaeded

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#15
Phaeded wrote:
Huck wrote
Somehow I don't understand, how your mind works. The most plausible solution is indeed, that Cossa and Scipio Carafa are connected and part of the same political party. King can add in this question nothing, which we don't know better (it isn't plausible, that she knew this letter or - if she knew it - if she was interested in the book of Martiano).
Here’s how my mind works – tell me where it goes astray:
1. Carafa is from a Neapolitan baronial family with the highest connections to Alfonso; indeed, that family helped make his entry into Naples possible (mainly via Malizia and Diomede Carafa).
2. There is no evidence that Scipio is estranged from his family; on the contrary, we have information that he holds a minor fief only 14 km northeast of Naples (of which the French interpret him as being the ‘scutifer’ – which one would assume means that he is a “shield-bearing” vassal beholden to the ruler of the local, larger principality)
3. No one associated with Rene would have been allowed by Alfonso to hold a fief that close to Naples. Cossa himself lives in exile with Rene. Cossa had been with Rene since he fled Naples via the sea in 1443. If Scipio were in Cossa’s “party”, where is the record of him as exiled anywhere? The only fact we have of Scipio’s domicile is right outside Naples.
4. When Marcello is writing in late 1449, Venice and Naples are already aligned against Sforza, who Venice betrayed for the last time in September of that year. Sforza is trying to get Rene to join him in the field (with the vague promise that Sforza will help Rene take back Naples). Marcello is trying to keep Rene out of the war. By mentioning Scipio, a recent acquintance of Isabelle, Marcello is indirectly trying to win her over to the the Venetian cause, but the sharper side of his argument is the implicit pointing out that Venice will now be bolstered by an alliance with Naples – so essentially, ‘tell your husband to beware.’ If Scipio had no connection to the looming Naples-Venice army to be aligned aginst Sforza - and would-be ally Rene - then why mention him at all? My gawd, your own web-published notes speak to this alliance: “...Venezia wished just at this time the energies of Naples occupied with a fresh war with Rene d'Anjou.” http://trionfi.com/jacopo-antonio-marce ... e-lorraine

Scipio obviously visited Isabelle for intelligence/diplomatic purposes. For whom? According to you, this member of a prominent Neapolitan family, top advisors to King Alfonso, holder of a fief just outside of Naples, is doing Cossa/Rene’s bidding...even though Cossa/Rene are about to go to war against Marcello’s Venice (and Scipio’s Naples).

Phaeded
Diomede and Malizia went with Alfonso outside of the kingdom of Naples already in the 1420s. Other Carafas didn't.

The Carafa family was far spread. The ancestor reports go centuries back in time. The Carafa in the Abruzzi might be rather different than other Carafa elsewhere. "Our Scipio Carafa" might be simply another Scipio Carafa than that of near Naples. And even when he is the same man, he might just have had a title of this location when in exile, thanks to a former good relation to Renee, and not to Alfonso. Alfonso had trouble with the "barons" in 1444/46, I've read. I don't know precisely with which.
Yes, of course, there was a Naples war after 1458, thanks to the condition, that it wasn't clear, what the Naples population wanted. That's just the reason, that one without further information can't conclude from the name "Carafa" about the political orientation of this man.

Our own real information is just the French document 1446, doubtful as it might be, and Marcello's letter from 1449. Both don't tell, hat Scipio Carafa was a man of Alfonso.

"Sforza is trying to get Rene to join him in the field (with the vague promise that Sforza will help Rene take back Naples)."
Isn't it so, that Renee is interested to have Sforza engaged as a condottiero in his interest? It's Renee, who writes conspirative letters, and it's Renee, who started to send messengers in December 1448. Now you turn this in the way, that it's Sforza's initiative. Sforza has already a commission and an aim, he isn't free for a condottieri job in the moment.
Naturally everybody is alarmed and surprized by the condition, that Sforza had changed sides. So Renee is susprized, and also the French side, which still has hopes for the duke of Orleans as new duke of Milan.
The French likely already prepare to take part (against Sforza, aginst Venice) with the Savoyan escapade, which went deadly wrong against Colleoni in April 1449. The French don't engage very much, cause they still have English problems in the North of France. They leave it to the duke of Orleans and the Dauphin to defend the South-East interests.

Anyway, the identity of Scipio Carafa is a riddle, and even, if we could solve it, we would only reach a minimal step in the history of playing cards. Likely we would gain nothing in this direction. So we can leave this as it is, an open question. We cannot solve all 15th century problems.
Far more promising would be an engagement in the Esch paper, where we've thousands of imported and exported Trionfi decks. Or the Anghiari battle.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#16
Anyway, the identity of Scipio Carafa is a riddle, and even, if we could solve it, we would only reach a minimal step in the history of playing cards. Likely we would gain nothing in this direction. So we can leave this as it is, an open question. We cannot solve all 15th century problems.
Agreed on Scipio's importance being overblown here, but you were using him as a piece of a puzzle for a very hypothetical theory in connecting Savoy to tarot by way of Isabelle; no historical record connects her to cards except as the recipient of the gifted deck from Marcello. I have placed the emphasis not on Scipio but rightfully on Marcello's activity; re., his having sent out both illuminated manuscripts to Rene and a new Marziano deck to his wife. That allows us to postulate a very important thing about trionfi-objects (which the Marziano deck is) and possibly tarot itself: Cards could be used as diplomatic gifts, specifically in a belligerent climate.
Far more promising would be an engagement in the Esch paper, where we've thousands of imported and exported Trionfi decks. Or the Anghiari battle.
And I continue to see the Anghiari deck as precisely what I laid out above - it was created/sent as a piece of diplomacy by a Medici partisan (Giusti) to one of their condottiere (Malatesta) right after a major victory (but with Visconti still very much a threat in the greater scheme of things in 1440 - indeed, he won over Sforza via marriage/dowry the very next year...to which we might connect yet another deck, the CY). Thus Marcello was merely following an established practice by 1449....

Phaeded

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#17
Phaeded wrote: Agreed on Scipio's importance being overblown here, but you were using him as a piece of a puzzle for a very hypothetical theory in connecting Savoy to tarot by way of Isabelle; no historical record connects her to cards except as the recipient of the gifted deck from Marcello. I have placed the emphasis not on Scipio but rightfully on Marcello's activity; re., his having sent out both illuminated manuscripts to Rene and a new Marziano deck to his wife. That allows us to postulate a very important thing about trionfi-objects (which the Marziano deck is) and possibly tarot itself: Cards could be used as diplomatic gifts, specifically in a belligerent climate.
I don't understand, what you mean by "connecting Savoy to tarot by way of Isabelle" and I can't identify my idea with these words.
Marcello's letter was addressed ...
To the Fairest and Most Noble Queen Isabelle,
Jacopo Antonio Marcello humbly commends himself.
... not to Renee

There were only one manuscript, not two, and a letter, and we don't know to which degree the manuscript was illuminated (do we know, if a complete manuscript survived? do we know, if we have the original of Martiano's book, or a copy?). I agree, that cards could be used as diplomatic gifts, and were likely not only used once in this manner.

The recipient was female, that's an interesting detail, generally it may be assumed (my opinion), that playing cards were more something for women as for men. Knightly men were expected to play chess. For 1430 we have for Savoy the interesting law, that card playing was prohibited (to whom ?), but only allowed, if one played with women. Possibly this was more a law for the court.
At least it seems clear, that women were allowed to play cards.
Far more promising would be an engagement in the Esch paper, where we've thousands of imported and exported Trionfi decks. Or the Anghiari battle.
And I continue to see the Anghiari deck as precisely what I laid out above - it was created/sent as a piece of diplomacy by a Medici partisan (Giusti) to one of their condottiere (Malatesta) right after a major victory (but with Visconti still very much a threat in the greater scheme of things in 1440 - indeed, he won over Sforza via marriage/dowry the very next year...to which we might connect yet another deck, the CY). Thus Marcello was merely following an established practice by 1449....
I don't know, that the Medici were involved, that's your hypothesis. Giusto worked with some security for his family and local condottieri. His family traded with armory, and likely they had made good money by the battle of Anghiari and the connected war.
And he had profited as lawyer and diplomat for a deal between Malatesta and his both condottieri partners, who bought some conquered castles from Malatesta the year before Anghiari; Giusto had arranged the deal, so likely he got his percents, which should have been enough to pay the few ducats for the deck. He wanted a good business connection to Malatesta.

But our major question, as far I remember, was, if the first Trionfi deck appeared after Anghiari or before, around the council 1439. Or have you changed your opinion?

But this thread was dedicated to Scipio Carafa. Perhaps we should revive this thread ...

Anghiari Deck debate
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=950&p=13996&hilit=anghiari#p13996

I was occupied last year in July and August, so the topic was lost then. I excuse.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#18
My careless mistake on "connecting Savoy by way of Isabelle" - I meant Maria of Savoy (and the theory that the CY connects to her by way of the red/shite flag - see my other post on the Agnese thread).
I don't know, that the Medici were involved, that's your hypothesis.
Not my hypothesis - it is a fact. Read not just the over-analyzed Anghiari excerpt from his diary but the entire diary (I had to go to Notre Dame's library to do this, or at least the preceding and following year's entries) to understand Giusti's connection to the Medici. A digest version of those facts is in his bio on Treccani:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giu ... ografico)/ Some of the "machine" translation, with my attempted corrections of the bastardized English:
"...notary of Anghiari (1437), where he was chancellor of the vicar of Pagolo, the Florentine Giovanni Morelli." Cosimo was in control in 1434 and any administrator and their staff of the Florentine contado was a de facto Medici partisan. But more to the point: "For the young notary Giusti, these [positions] would be the basis for an intense and eventful life, spending life as a procurer of military men, and as a familiar and confidant of the Medici family [e come familiare e uomo di fiducia della famiglia Medici] - and lords such as Sigismondo Malatesta - ....".
But our major question, as far I remember, was, if the first Trionfi deck appeared after Anghiari or before, around the council 1439. Or have you changed your opinion?
I haven't changed my opinion - the Medici created tarot to celebrate the military victory of Anghiari (of the utmost signficance because it overcame the ultimate foreign [Visconti] and internal [Albizzi] enemies that they had), with the loyal Giusti following suit in having a customized deck made for Malatesta (present with Cosimo at the Duomo consecration in 1436) for whom he was doing business as a procurer of soliders.

Phaeded

Re: Material to Scipio Caraffa (or Carafa)

#19
I revisited this thread (I must be getting old – can barely remember any of the details Huck and I once fought over) and have come up with what seems like the only possible resolution as to who this Scipio Carafa was (or rather served). The fatal flaw in my original argument was in the timing of a Neapolitan-Venetian alliance, which would not materialize until after Marcello had left Sforza’s camp; i.e. my primary point was the House of Carafa was closely aligned with Alfonso so this Scipio had to be an ambassador on his behalf, ostensibly for alliances against Sforza. However, Huck’s suggestion that he was from a cadet branch of the Carafa not aligned with the main house (for this we still need proof) would make sense in light of the source Ross found that calls him a “Venetian ambassador,” IF he was an “ambassador” from this combined Venetian-Sforzan army outside Milan (and to which he returned when he was told of the Marziano deck). My arguments that there is no possible way for a Neapolitan to be a Venetian ambassador still stands; however the context of our source in 1448, Marcello, is that although he is with Sforza’s army before Milan, it is technically Venice’s mercenary army.

The ensuing twisted logic goes like this: Subunits (aggregations of “lances”) of a mercenary army would sometimes have to be vetted before the contracting city (e.g., Giusti Giusto is often before the Florentine Dieci to negotiate the contracts for the mercenaries he works for [e.g., Agnolo Taglia], but they are never made captain of the Florentine army – so just a “subunit”); so perhaps Scipio Carafa can be seen in the light of securing Venetian terms for a Calabrian component of Sforza’s army, perhaps directly from Marcello (hence their original connection and why Scipio would circulate among the highest circle in the Sforza-Venetian camp.

Furthermore, the Carafa had deep connections to the Angevins well before Alfonso conquered Naples in 1442, so why we also find this Scipio in Provence, trying to rally Rene’s army against Savoy, who in turn is being rallied by the widow of Filippo Visconti, Bona of Savoy, to invade western Lombardy. Two fronts against Savoy would throw them off Sforza/Venice’s back. By the time Marcello writes Rene’s wife, Isabelle, about the Marziano deck the following year, he now has the opposite purpose: to keep Rene from joining with Sforza, as Venice has already double-crossed their mercenary. At all events, Scipio is barely found in the records because - as speculated – he is from a disinherited cadet branch of the Carafa and roaming with a Calabrian band of freebooters. But back to the primary point: If Scipio approaches certain lords in France from the Venetian-Sforzan army camped outside of Milan, then he could be categorized as a “Venetian ambassador.” In 1446, similar conditions must have prevailed (Calabrian units hired by Venice in her wars against Visconti, aligned or not with Sforza). Also of some relevance is that the Florentine ambassador, Ginozzo Manetti, was on 27 August 1448 appointed ambassador to Venice to solicit Venetian aid against Alfonso's ambitions in Lombardy - it seems impossible that neither the Venetians nor the Medici closely aligned with Sforza are not aware that a Calabrian component of his army would join with a Florentine-Venetian effort against Aragon/Naples. Scipio's visit to France is thus part of a much larger scheme of alliance that was afoot.

Again, we sorely lack additional documentation about Scipio, but additional resources I can bring to bear on this problem is a comparable self-exiled Calabrian, Antonio Centrelles, but much higher ranking and likely the lead condottiero of any Calabrian contingent that joined Sforza. Keep in mind Sforza’s career begins with the Angevin struggles in Naples back in 1423, and his own lead counselors are Calabrian – the Simonetta brothers, Cicco and Giovanni.

Antonio Centrelles: Family is originally from Sicily and came over to the mainland with the invading Aragonese army. He becomes marchese di Cotrone, but angered Alfonso by marrying a noble woman in Calabria that Alfonso wanted to marry his chief counselor, Inigo d’Avalos. Alfonso finally pardoned Centrlles in 1445 but confiscated his fiefs. The very next year is when Ross’s source places Scipio in France for the first time – if he also lost fiefs or was allied with Centrelles, his purpose is obvious: join up with Rene to reconquer Naples and then Centrelles/Scipio can reclaim their fiefs. That joint attempt eventually happens but only under Rene’s son, Jean, who invaded the Kingdom of Naples in 1460 (Jean II, self-styled “Duke of Calabria” in addition to his real fief of Lorraine, defeated Ferrante at Nola, but was unable to prevent others from coming to his aid. He was defeated at Troia in 1462 and at Ischia in 1465; For an account of Centrelles fomenting rebellion in Calabria at this time, see Christine Shaw, Barons and Castellans: The Military Nobility of Renaissance Italy, 2014: 187).

For Centrelles' actions during the dates that most concern us – consider the below (machine translation, corrected as best I could):
With the worsening of the war between Venice and Alfonso of Aragon, in December 1448 Antonio Centelles changed again. He went over to the side of Francesco Sforza, who also commanded some Serenissima troops, to besiege the Ambrosian Republic, also giving the signal to other condottieri to join with Sforza 69 [including our Scipio?]. The tensions between Alfonso of Aragon and Venice were aggravated by the will of the Serenissima to move war against the duchy of Milan. The last Visconti, Filippo Maria, was said so he had bequeathed to Alfonso of Aragon 70, but that will was not considered by Venice that aspired to keep the conquests made in that duchy, but also by Francesco Sforza who, having married the duke's natural daughter, Bianca Maria Visconti, demanded its delivery. Alfonso of Aragon was quick to order that all the Venetian merchants dwelling in the kingdom of Naples to leave, with narrow margins of time 71. The Venetian Senate put together a fleet under the command of Luigi Loredan, composed of thirty galleys and six ships that, as a retaliatory action, attacked various maritime bases of the kingdom of Naples and Sicily. There Venetian fleet did much damage especially in the ports of Reggio Calabria, Messina and Syracuse, without raging in Calabria [no doubt of out deference to Centrelles, who wished to reclaim Calabria for himself, undamaged]. There was clear damage to the fleet of King Alfonso and the Venetian galleys headed for those ports where it was concentrated 72…..
After Francesco Sforza broke away from Venice to undertake the conquest of the duchy of Milan in his name, Antonio Centelles tried to to part with him, accepting the invitation of Venice to join Colleoni, who tried to rescue the Milanese 73. His aim was always to put himself then head of Venetian militias and attempt to reconquer his Calabrian fiefdoms. In February 1450 his plan was discovered by Francesco Sforza who he had Lodi imprison him and then transferred to the more secure castle of Pavia. A few months later Antonio Centelles learned that on 2 July of that same year 1450 peace had been signed between Venice and Alfonso of Aragon 74. Some years later Alfonso of Aragon re-admitted him to court a Naples with the paid office of Siniscalco 75. Thus ended the hopes of a possible Venetian intervention in his favor in the south of Italy. (Serradileo, Amedeo Miceli Di. “Veneziani in Calabria Tra Il '200 Ed Il '400.” in Notiziario dell'Associazione Nobiliare Regionale Veneta VIII.8 (2016): 219–234, 230. Read on-line here: https://www.academia.edu/37143378/Venez ... _ed_il_400
Thus it is clear that at different times a significant Calabrian noble, Centrelles, sought both Venetian and/or Rene of Anjou’s help in recovering his fiefs in Calabria, if not the entire dukedom for himself (the latter if via Venice's help). From this we can speculate that Scipio Carafa, himself from a highly respectable Neapolitan house (perhaps a bastard, who often end up in the military ranks), perhaps served this Centrelles in the same way that the Simonetta served Sforza, occasionally as “ambassador” (misinterpreted as “Venetian” when serving under their banner).

Phaeded

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