Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#31
mikeh wrote:Thanks, Huck. I still think your conclusion
It seems, that the Tarot de Besancon style was a way to have a Tarot, which somehow was acceptable also to Protestants.
is not justified.

In your account I see one apparently new fact about Catholics and the Pope/Popess:
The oldest allowance happened around Nidwalden, which is said to have kept always Pope and Popess as part of the game. The region of Nidwalden was mostly the region, where papal Swiss guard came from and the region were very catholic. The papal Swiss guard had died in 1527 and was restored after a period of 20 years, as far I remember. The first note of the game in allowed form happened 1572 (as far I remember).
But 1572 is too early to be of relevance to the issue of where and why the Tarot of Besancon vs. the Tarot of Marseille was chosen for the game. However it is relevant to another issue, namely, what the deck looked like in Rome in 1572. If the papal Swiss guard were using decks with both the Pope and the Popess, that goes against every other piece of evidence known about Rome at that time. The Strambotto list, c. 1500, leaves out the Popess. The Colonna deck has a Sultan (and presumably a Sultaness). The Minchiate has three "papi" with Imperial attributes. So I would very much like your source for Nidwalden, with a page number (because I tend to miss things otherwise), as I did not see it in the Deapaulis article you cited.
If I understood Depaulis correctly, then he thinks, that the Tarot de Besancon developed in Strassbourg and not in Besancon, and that in steps "after 1700". For the distribution of the Tarot de Besancon to specific parts of Germany
(South Eastern parts close to Strassbourg ... evidence for this before 1750 is rare) he thinks, that Francois Isnard is responsible.
With 1750 starts a large distribution of Tarock in German countries, and likely these decks were not all Tarot de Besancon. The oldest evidence is a love poem at a German city at the Ostsee, far in the North, actually then a part of Sweden. I've made a large collection for these notes.

About the decks in Rome one can learn from another Depaulis article about a larger playing card deal in Rome. In Rome then were differents Tarocchi. Type "1559 +Depaulis" in the local search engine and you'll find information.

Kaplan II might be helpful. Look for Besancon and Tarot de Besancon at page 535.
This thesis, that the Catholic authorities did not allow the Pope and the Popess, seems to me eminently reasonable . (Footnote 33 is about when the Tarot of Besancon came to Besancon, not until the 19th century.)
France produced the Tarot de Marseille ... and was Catholic.
Strassbourg had a mixed population. Only Strassburg had free custom to deliver cards to German cities. Why should the Catholic party in Strassbourg prohibit the normal Tarot with Pope and Popess? There was no (French) reason. The relevant German cities had often mixed religion. They might have protested or not accepted Tarot with Pope and Popess or the people simply didn't bought that design).

Francois Heri in Solthurn made both deck types. (Kaplan II p. 318). Adam C. Hautot, who produced in Rouen, and who from this position might have also delivered to protestant cities, had also replacement figures. (Kaplan II, p. 320).
I really don't see why Protestants would have objected to the Pope and Popess in particular--after all, there was a Devil card, and the Pope was no different.
You think, that Protestants hadn't heard of the devil?
I can see why the Catholic powers wouldn't have wanted a Pope and Popess: because they considered that these cards were at best disrespectful, perhaps satirical and even seditious, in that the cards might stir up disorder, as providing occasions for Protestant to make slurs against the Pope in the midst of games.

I can also see why people in general would have preferred animal cards, because the previous tarot had some scary figures on them (as well as being unfamiliarly medieval). As Depaulis concludes his article (p. 79):
The real impetus [for expansion into Germany] was given in c. 1740 when someone (Francois Isnard in Strasbourg?) got the idea of changing the Latin suit signs for much more 'legible' French ones, and the terrifying figures on the trumps for more familiar animals, From that time on Tarot could expand in Germany (and Austria), and from there to other European countries. (38)
I think, there were various other reasons, why Tarot spread so rapidly after 1750. There was for instance a Whist revolution in the 1740s. There was a game book revolution in the 1740s. There was a war finished in 1748. Before 1750 there is not much evidence for Tarock in Germany, only for the South-Eastern part (and there is also not much evidence for this; one can count it with 5 fingers at one hand or so).
That's quite different after 1750.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#32
Huck wrote,
If I understood Depaulis correctly, then he thinks, that the Tarot de Besancon developed in Strassbourg and not in Besancon, and that in steps "after 1700". For the distribution of the Tarot de Besancon to specific parts of Germany
(South Eastern parts close to Strassbourg ... evidence for this before 1750 is rare) he thinks, that Francois Isnard is responsible.
You misread Depaulis about Isnard. He says that Isnard is responsible for the spread of tarot by means of his invention of animal decks.

Huck wrote, in response to my point that the removal of Pope/popess was due to the Catholic authorities imposing their will:
France produced the Tarot de Marseille ... and was Catholic.
You miss Depaulis's point. In Strasbourg, the Catholic authorities had to contend with a Protestant majority that they wanted to bring back to Catholicism. Decks with the Pope and Popess went against their plan. The situation was different in areas that were already Catholic and used the Tarot de Marseille.

Huck wrote
You think, that Protestants hadn't heard of the devil?
Yes, of course. What I am saying is that if they wouldn't weren't offended by the devil being on a card, they wouldn't be offended by the Pope being there either, because they were both just as offensive.

Huck wrote
About the decks in Rome one can learn from another Depaulis article about a larger playing card deal in Rome. In Rome then were differents Tarocchi. Type "1559 +Depaulis" in the local search engine and you'll find information.
The only thing that came up was your post at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=654&this article concerned decks with "papi", i.e. not Pope and Popess.

I looked at your post at
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=821&hilit=troggn#p11695

There is a snippet tat seems to say that a staunchly Catholic area very near Lucerne, Rotzloch, used decks with the Pope and Popess in the 18th century. I can't tell what it says about the Tarot de Besancon in that region, as the snippet ends in the middle of a sentence. I presume it says it was not adopted.

Switzerland is a different situation from Alsace and Germany. In Switzerland in some places had continuous tarot use from the 16th century, before the Besancon was invented. In Alsace, according to Depaulis, the game had probably died out. and it had never reached Germany. Also, they didn't have Catholic secular authorities in Switzerland trying to re-Catholicize Protestant populations whom they had conquered. People who had traditions to defend could successfully defend them. In this case, the deck they had always used had a Pope and Popess.

It seems unlikely to me that the Swiss around Lucerne. got their pope/popess deck from Rome, since there is no evidence of any Pope/Popess there at the time in question, and much better evidence that decks with the Pope and Popess existed elsewhere that Swiss guards and troops were used: e.g. Milan or Paris. It seems to me that the French king would have preferred using guards from a German-speaking buy staunchly Catholic area because they were less likely to be French Huguenots escaped into Switzerland, less likely to become contaminated by Protestant ideas once in France, and more likely to defend the sovereign to the death because of their lack of contact with the surrounding population if they escaped.

Added later in day: Checking Kaplan vol. 2 under Besancon, I see that Francois Heri of Solothurn , first third of 18th century, produced both a Besancon and a Tarot de Marseille. To me that he could do both speaks of a lack of interference by the authorities there. The population there is German, slight Catholic majority currently, I can't determine what it was then. Other Besancons are Constanz, Germany, by Mayer, c. 1720, Sebastian Ioia, c. 1725-1785; Augsburg and Constanz were historically Protestant but under Catholic rule then. Another is Bernard Schaer, 1784, a very small place near Solothun, 98% German Catholic currently. The French Swiss tarots are all Tarot de Marseille. One, late 18th century, with a French name came there from Strasbourg. So nothing surprising.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#33
mikeh wrote:Huck wrote,
If I understood Depaulis correctly, then he thinks, that the Tarot de Besancon developed in Strassbourg and not in Besancon, and that in steps "after 1700". For the distribution of the Tarot de Besancon to specific parts of Germany
(South Eastern parts close to Strassbourg ... evidence for this before 1750 is rare) he thinks, that Francois Isnard is responsible.
You misread Depaulis about Isnard. He says that Isnard is responsible for the spread of tarot by means of his invention of animal decks.
No, I don't think, that I misread Depaulis.

This is a passage of p. 78 ...
Image


Francois Isnard is said to have come to Strassburg in 1715 and I assume, that Depaulis means, that he soon started to produce cards or engravings (responsible for most Strassbourg productions).

Then the animal Tarock becomes a theme, in relation to the name Johann Wolfgang Weber. It seems to be possible to date the evidence for the animal Tarot to c. 1740-45.

Depaulis notes, that the name Weber has appeared before (in the text of Depaulis). This indeed had happened at p.
67.

Image

Radau thinks, that Weber made a Tarot de Becancon deck already in 1735. Depaulis thinks, that it also might have happened later.
Another German cardmaker, Sebastian Joja in Augsburg, made according Radau a Besancon deck already in 1720/25.

Kaplan II has the Joja deck at p. 320/324. Kaplan already notes, that the style of the Joja deck, the Joannes Pelagius Mayer deck in Constance (active c. 1720-50) and of Göbl in Munich (active since 1748) would be so similar, that one could assume the same engraver (identified by Depaulis as Francois Isnard).

Francois Heri at Solothurn, Switzerland, made an early Tarot de Marseille deck in 1718. He also made an early Tarot de Besancon deck (Kaplan 314, 317, 318). Kaplan notes a HB on 7 Chariot, which is taken by Kaplan as the initials of the engraver (which would be then not FI = Francois Isnard).

Perhaps Depaulis assumed, that Francois Heri or "HB" imitated Francois Isnard.
Huck wrote, in response to my point that the removal of Pope/popess was due to the Catholic authorities imposing their will:
France produced the Tarot de Marseille ... and was Catholic.
You miss Depaulis's point. In Strasbourg, the Catholic authorities had to contend with a Protestant majority that they wanted to bring back to Catholicism. Decks with the Pope and Popess went against their plan. The situation was different in areas that were already Catholic and used the Tarot de Marseille.
This sounds too complicated to me.

Huck wrote
About the decks in Rome one can learn from another Depaulis article about a larger playing card deal in Rome. In Rome then were differents Tarocchi. Type "1559 +Depaulis" in the local search engine and you'll find information.
The only thing that came up was your post at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=654&this article concerned decks with "papi", i.e. not Pope and Popess.
Depaulis 1559
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=654&p=9753
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#34
Huck wrote,
No, I don't think, that I misread Depaulis.
The issue is who started the Tarot of Besancon. Nowhere in the passage you scanned does Depaulis say that Isnard was responsible for, or had anything to do with, the creation of the Tarot de Besancon. The Tarot de Besancon is not a French-suited deck. He might have invented the animal deck with French suits. I will concede to you that Isnard may not in fact have invented the animal-suited ones (with French suits), as there are other possibilities, such as his printer Weber, but it is Depaulis's best guess; it was Isnard's specialty with many printers. Here is Depaulis's conclusion, which I already quoted, five posts back (posting.php?mode=reply&f=11&t=1019#pr15195 (pp. 78-9)n:
The real impetus [for expansion into Germany] was given in c. 1740 when someone (Francois Isnard in Strasbourg?) got the idea of changing the Latin suit signs for much more 'legible' French ones, and the terrifying figures on the trumps for more familiar animals, From that time on Tarot could expand in Germany (and Austria), and from there to other European countries. (38)
_________________
38. But how Tarot came to Belgium seems to be a much more complicated puzzle.
But the main issue is the Besancon, not the animal decks or other decks with French suits. When it comes to the Tarot de Besancon, on who created it and why, Dapaulis theorizes that the idea came from Laboisse or his "pre-Isnard" engraver "JN". I quoted the most relevant part of that paragraph, the last twelve lines, five posts back (posting.php?mode=reply&f=11&t=1019#pr15195, but here is the whole thing, which mentions "JN" (pp. 76-7). I include the footnotes. Footnote 32, which I quoted earlier, is particularly relevant.

Image

Image

Image


Huck wrote, about Depaulis's idea that the Besancon became used because the Catholic authorities didn't want a deck with a Pope and Popess in the predominantly Protestant German-speaking:areas they controledl
This sounds too complicated to me.
Well, it's what Depaulis said, as I quoted him four posts earlier. The passage is included in the scan above, just before "This may well be the origin of the so-called 'Tarot de Besancon'." It seems to me the best hypothesis. And not very complicated.

Huck wrote,
On that thread, you give a link to the Depaulis at http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/carte_ ... v_sec.html
When I click on it, all I get is a notice saying "This page cannot be found". Is the Depaulis article somewhere else? If so, Google can't find it for me. I'd like to read it.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#35
mikeh wrote: Huck wrote, about Depaulis's idea that the Besancon became used because the Catholic authorities didn't want a deck with a Pope and Popess in the predominantly Protestant German-speaking:areas they controledl
This sounds too complicated to me.
Well, it's what Depaulis said, as I quoted him four posts earlier. The passage is included in the scan above, just before "This may well be the origin of the so-called 'Tarot de Besancon'." It seems to me the best hypothesis. And not very complicated.
The issue is not only, who made first the Tarot de Besancon, but also, who brought the cards to Germany ... especially in an article, which focusses on Germany, Switzerland and Austria. In this question it seems, that Francois Isnard is responsible.

For selling a woodcut from Strasbourg to German cities, it would need two, who agree. The Strasbourg producer and the relevant German card maker and as the third the German buyer of the cards, cause, if the buyers wouldn't buy it, the German cardmaker wouldn't produce it.

Depaulis presents a hypothesis, not a fact, in the question, that Strassbourg Catholic authorities possibly influenced the choice of cards.
One might add, that possibly also the German authorities of the cities had some possibility to influence the choice, which card were allowed to be produced in their city and which not ... and likely these had the last word in the matter, as the customer is usually the king in deals, and not the seller.

That's the natural rule. And Depaulis' emphasis on the Catholic authorities is "too complicated" in my opinion.
Huck wrote,
On that thread, you give a link to the Depaulis at http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/carte_ ... v_sec.html
When I click on it, all I get is a notice saying "This page cannot be found". Is the Depaulis article somewhere else? If so, Google can't find it for me. I'd like to read it.
[/quote]

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/carte- ... -sec..html
I don't know, who changed the address.

*********

Depaulis knows a lot of Besancon producers in Strassbourg, but their production dates are not clear. The begin of the replacement figures in Strasbourg seems to be the figures Spring and Winter of Laboisse, whereby Spring was recognized to have been based on this picture La belle Strasbourgeoise by Nicolas de Largilliere (1703). Laboisse came to Strasbourg in c. 1710 according Depaulis.

Image

http://delartenbranches.blogspot.de/201 ... chive.html

Depaulis notes - based on Radau - an animal Tarot with an (insecure) tax stamp of 1729 in an Museum in Braunschweig by Leonard Chaso and Ignace Henrion from Strasbourg.

I remember the long Minchiate export lists of Franco Pratesi from 1729-1761, which included also some exports to German cities.
http://trionfi.com/evx-minchiate-export-tuscany

All these imports didn't cause any document from the German side to give evidence for Minchiate in Germany till 1756, and its hardly imaginable, that none of them reached their address.

So all these "results" are naturally a little bit insecure.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#36
Thanks for the link to Depaulis. I'll read it. The export of Minchiate to Germany is interesting, as you say, since from the German side one wouldn't have guessed it.

Isnard is relevant mainly for French-suited decks, although I suppose he could have made Italian-suited ones, too.

I have been looking at what Dummett says in Il Mondo e l'Angelo about Italian-suited tarot in Switzerland, Germany, and points east. It might be useful at this point for me to skip over Dummett's account of Milan, France, and Belgium temporarily. His chapter 15, on Italian-suited tarot outside of Italy (I TAROCCHI CON SEMI ITALIANI ALL’ESTERO) contains much material that I do not remember seeing in Game of Tarot.

First, Switzerland (p. 379f):
La nostra documentazione per le carte da tarocchi svizzere è ancora più scarsa che per le carte francesi: non posse-[end of 379] diamo un solo esempio risalente a prima del XVIII secolo. Più frequenti sono i riferimenti su documenti. Nel tedesco della Svizzera, il gioco è noto come ‘Trogga', Trogge', 'Troggen' o ‘Truggen'; in romancio, come ‘Troccas'. Il riferimento più antico è del 1572, un’ordinanza in cui troggen è citato, con altri due giochi di carte, come autorizzato6. Altri riferimenti del genere risalgono al 1588, 1593 e 1599. Continuano nel XVII secolo, nel 1620, 1627, 1650 e 1662, e fino al XVIII nel 1701, 1712, 1732 e 1741 7. Durante il XVIII secolo, il gioco diventò molto popolare nel bel mondo svizzero, e fra gli eruditi, incluso il celebre matematico Johann Bernoulli II 8. È interessante notare che in Svizzera il gioco dei Tarocchi era talvolta chiamato, senza alcun motivo, «Martin-Lüter-Spiel» («gioco di Martin Lutero») 9.

(Our documentation for Swiss tarot cards is even more scarce than for the French cards: we have [end of 379] only one example dating from before the eighteenth century. More frequent are the references in documents. In German Switzerland, the game is known as '‘Trogga', Trogge', 'Troggen' o ‘Truggen'; Romansh as 'Troccas’. The earliest reference is 1572, an order in which troggen is mentioned, along with two other card games, as authorized 6. Other references of this kind date back to 1588, 1593 and 1599. Continuing in the seventeenth century, in 1620, 1627, 1650 and 1662, and in the eighteenth, 1701, 1712, 1732, 17417. During the XVIIIth century, the game became very popular in the Swiss bel monde, and among scholars, including the famous mathematician Johann Bernoullis. It is interesting to note that in Switzerland the game of Tarot was sometimes called, for no reason, " Martin-Luther-Spiel" ("Game of Martin Luther") 9.
____________________________
6. Schwieizerdeutches Wörterbuch, Vol XIV, Frauenfeld, 1978 sv 'Trogge' and 'trogge(n)' coll. 676-9. I owe this source to Dr.. Peter Kopp.
7. For all these references, see the Schweizerdeutches Wörterbuch, ibid., and Grimm, Deutsches Wörterbuch, Vol XI, p. 1, quoting from Hoffmann-Krayer, Schweizerische Archiv für Folkskunde, Vol V, p. 281.
8. Balz Eberhard, 'Spielkarte und Spielkartensteuer in der Republik Helvetischen, 1798-180', Zeitschrift für Schweizerische Archäologie und Kunstgeschichte, Vol 30, 1973. 169-84, and 'Die Entwicklung der Tarocke in der Schweiz', Schweizer Spielkarten (catalog), Zurich, 1978, pp. 180-1. Eberhard mistakenly believes that the game of Tarot had not arrived in Switzerland before the XVIIIth century.
9. Schweizerdeutsches Wörterbuch, Vol. XIV, col. 676.
These footnotes are very helpful, especially the one for 1572. I am not sure that the game would be called "Martin Luther Spiel" for no reason. And by whom, Catholics or Protestants?

Then there is the question of how it came to Switzerland. Dummett argues for at least part of the country, that it was from Italy (p. 380f) :
Dai riferimenti cinquecenteschi pare probabile che il gioco dei Tarocchi sia giunto in Svizzera più o meno nella stessa epoca in cui si diffuse in Francia, e cioè all’inizio del XVI secolo, quando gli Svizzeri erano molto coinvolti nelle guerre in Lombardia, fino alla loro sconfitta a Marignano nel 1515. Ciò è reso ancora più probabile dal fatto che nella forma del gioco ancora praticata nel Cantone dei Grigioni sono rispettate due tipiche usanze italiane. Secondo la prima, dopo qualsiasi giro della distribuzione delle carte, qualsiasi giocatore può proporre che essa sia annullata; se tutti sono d’accordo, si rimettono insieme le carte e si dà il via a una nuova distribuzione. Per la seconda il giocatore che ha in mano il trionfo più alto può battere sul tavolo con le nocche per informare il compagno. La prima di queste usanze è ben nota con l’espressione «andare a monte» in molti giochi di carte italiani; la seconda, con variazioni, si trova nelle forme di Tarocchi bolognesi e si-[end of 280]ciliane e in altri giochi. Il gioco praticato nei Grigioni mostra scarsi segni di evoluzione ed è molto simile a quello descritto come tipico della Svizzera nella Maison académique del 1659; evidentemente, i giocatori di questa regione svizzera, come quelli di altre, sono molto conservatori. Il fatto che abbiano conservato queste due caratteristiche minori, ma tipicamente italiane, del gioco suggerisce una sua derivazione diretta dall’Italia piuttosto che dalla Francia. In una conferenza sul gioco di Troccas nei Grigioni, Mile. Carla Deplazes ha comunicato che il primo riferimento si trova in un libro di devozione del 1668, pubblicato a Scuol nell’Engadina, che afferma che a Dio non aggrada che si giochi al Tarocco la domenica, ma a suo parere il riferimento non significa molto essendo una traduzione dall’inglese. Tuttavia, è molto improbabile che l’originale inglese si riferisse al gioco del Tarocco; la menzione di questo gioco deve essere una sostituzione fatta dal traduttore, e perciò serve a riprova della pratica del gioco nei Grigioni a quel tempo. Per la ragione sopraddetta, nel 1668 il gioco era conosciuto in Svizzera probabilmente da centocinquant’anni.

(From the sixteenth-century references, it seems likely that the game of Tarot in Switzerland has come more or less in the same period in which it spread to France, and that is the beginning of the sixteenth century, when the Swiss were very involved in the wars in Lombardy, until their defeat at Marignano in 1515. This is made more likely by the fact that in the form of the game still practiced in the canton of Grisons are met two typical Italian customs. According to the first, after any round of cards are dealt, any player may propose that it be set aside; if everyone agrees, they recombine the cards and give way to a new distribution. The second player who holds the highest triumph can beat on the table with his knuckles to tell his partner. The first of these customs is well known by the expression "andare a monte" in many Italian card games; the second, with variations, is found in forms of Bolognese and Si-[end of 380]cilian Tarot and other games. The game played in Grisons shows little sign of evolution and is very similar to the one described as typical of Switzerland in the Maison académique 1659; obviously, the players of this region of Switzerland, like those of others, are very conservative. The fact that they kept these two minor features, typically Italian,in the game suggests its direct derivation from Italy rather than France. In a lecture on the game Troccas in Grisons, Mile. Carla Deplazes communicated that the first reference is in a book of devotion, in 1668, published at Scuol in Engadine, which states that God does not like Tarot games on Sundays, but in her opinion the reference does not mean much since it is a translation from English. However, it is very unlikely that the original English version was referring to the game of Tarot; the mention of this game should be a substitution done by the translator, and therefore serves as proof of the practice of the game in Grisons at that time. For the aforesaid reason, in 1668 the game was known in Switzerland probably for a hundred and fifty years.
150 years! That is quite a claim. Huck's proposal of the Swiss Guards is another idea. "Andare a monte" is an idiom normally meaning "come to nothing", but in card games something else, I haven't bothered to find out what; see http://www.dizionario.org/d/?pageurl=andare-a-monte.

Against the view that Tarot in Switzerland comes from Italy, there is the argument that since the decks used in the German speaking parts of Italy are written in French, the game spread there from the French-speaking cantons. But Dummett says:
L’uso, in regioni di lingua tedesca e romancia della Svizzera, di carte con scritte in francese suggerisce che il gioco si diffuse dapprima nei Cantoni di lingua francese. Questo argomento, però, non è conclusivo. Sappiamo dall’ordinanza del 1572 che il gioco era già praticato in Svizzera da parlanti in tedesco; ma la pratica di scrivere sulle carte i nomi dei trionfi ebbe origine probabilmente ottantanni più tardi. La conservazione delle scritte francesi significa solo che questa pratica fu introdotta, direttamente o indirettamente, dalla Francia, o almeno da aree di lingua francese.

(The use, in German and Romansh-speaking regions of Switzerland, of cards written in French suggests that the game spread first into the French-speaking cantons. This argument, however, is not conclusive. We know from the order of 1572 that the game was already practiced in Switzerland by German speakers; but the practice of writing the names on the cards of the triumphs originated probably eighty years later. The preservation of written French only means that this practice was introduced, directly or indirectly, from France, or at least areas of the French language.)
He is not sure where this practice of writing the titles came from, Switzerland or France, but of the three Parisian decks of the 17th century, titles are not on the Vieville but are on the Anonymous Parisian and Noblet. All are 1750-1770, he says. Hence the "eighty years".

Dummett then turns to Germany:'
Ci sono prove contrastanti a proposito dell’arrivo del gioco in Germania. Verso la metà del XVIII secolo, troviamo giocatori tedeschi che usano una terminologia francese e giocatori viennesi che praticano un gioco di origine lombarda e usano termini italiani.

(There is conflicting evidence about the arrival of the game in Germany. Towards the middle of the XVIIIth century, we find German players who use French terminology and Viennese players who practice a game of Lombard origin and use Italian terms.
The Germans--here Dummett includes Alsace--clearly did not have the tarot in 1590, when the German translator (publishing in Strassburg) greatly expanded Gargantua's list of games but did not include tarot. Yet the Maison Academique in 1659 says that the Germans played nothing else! Dummett proposes:
Ivan Honl asserisce, in un libro del 1947, che le carte da tarocchi sono nominate per la prima volta in Boemia nel 1596 11. È pertanto possibile che il gioco entrasse originariamente in Germania dalla Svizzera e non dalla Francia, e che divenisse popolare nella parte orientale del paese e in Boemia prima di raggiungere la Germania occidentale.

(Ivan Honl claims, in a book of 1947, that tarot cards are named for the first time in Bohemia in 1596 11. It is therefore possible that the game originally came to Germany from Switzerland and France, and it became popular in the eastern part of the country and in Bohemia before reaching western Germany.
___________________
11. 20. Honl, Z Minulosti Karetní hry v Cechách, Prague, 1947, p. 31. Unfortunately, Honl does not provide complete data.
But what kind of deck would they have used? Dummett says that it could have been the Tarot of Besancon, wending its way west:
I tarocchi con semi italiani pervenutici, prodotti nell’Europa Centrale nel XVIII secolo, esemplificano quasi tutti il Tarocco dì Besançon; le poche eccezioni sono esempi della versione lombarda del Tarocco di Marsiglia. Possiamo solo ipotizzare quale tipo di tarocchi fosse originariamente usato in Germania e Boemia; forse si trattava di una versione del Tarocco di Besançon senza le scritte, che potrebbero essere state aggiunte nel corso del XVII secolo, quando i fabbricanti di carte dell’Alsazia (francese dal 1648) o di altre parti della Francia cominciarono a esportare mazzi di tarocchi in Germania. In tal caso, i mazzi del Tarocco di Besançon con scritte in francese potrebbero essere stati originariamente introdotti in Svizzera dalla Germania. Queste, naturalmente, sono semplici congetture; ci mancano i dati per trarre deduzioni sicure.

(The surviving tarots with Italian suits produced in Central Europe in the eighteenth century almost all exemplify the Tarot of Besançon; the few exceptions are examples of the Lombard version of the Tarot of Marseilles. We can only speculate what type of tarot cards were originally used in Germany and Bohemia; perhaps it was a version of the Tarot of Besançon without the lettering, which may have been added during the seventeenth century, when the card makers of Alsace (French from 1648) or other parts of France began to export tarot decks into Germany. In this case, the decks of the Tarot of Besançon with writing in French may have been originally introduced into Switzerland from Germany. This, of course, is pure conjecture; we lack the data to draw reliable conclusions.)
That concludes Dummett's discussion. The Lombard version in Milan, Dummett says elsewhere in the book, would have come from Milan in the 18th century, when Austria ruled Lombardy. The 1648 date is misleading; Strasbourg did not come under French control until 1681 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace#Inc ... nto_France).

From Depaulis we have more data; but at the same time he only presents a coherent picture by discounting Dummett's sources, dismissing the Maison Academique as totally unconfirmed and not mentioning Honl. Maybe they should be dismissed, I don't know. Tarot in Bohemia might have been brought by the Hapsburgs, since Prague was their capital then; Rudolf II was interested in all sorts of curiosities. Or it had come originally to Innsbruck by way of Bianca Maria Sforza, husband of Maximilian I, and somehow hung on. Or on a more popular level, it might have come up from Italy in the same way as Trappola, from Venice. I can't imagine that it would have been the Besançon in 1599. That would require both the Tarot de Marseille and the Besancon to have been invented in Switzerland or Italy in the 16th century, a formidable proposition. It is barely conceivable to me that both would have come from there in the 17th century. There was no motive for defying tradition and removing the Pope and Popess there. And while Swiss did migrate to Strasbourg in the later 17th century, they were mostly Anabaptists, according to Wikipedia. They would have had no use for the tarot. Surely Depaulis is right that it was invented in Strasbourg around 1710.

But that Depaulis does not find evidence of tarot in Germany before 1659 does not mean it wasn't there. The 30 Years War destroyed a lot of evidence. If Germans played tarot before 1648, it seems to me, there is no telling where it would have come from, Switzerland, France, Italy, or (least probably) the Hapsburg Empire.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#37
mikeh wrote:Thanks for the link to Depaulis. I'll read it. The export of Minchiate to Germany is interesting, as you say, since from the German side one wouldn't have guessed it.
Well, the point it, that likely there were small exports numbers of Minchiate decks already before 1729, and likely we had similar exports for Tarot and Trioni decks before. But we have (more or less) no records. Our exploration web with the collection of playing card notes is simply to thin to give a correct picture of the development.
Isnard is relevant mainly for French-suited decks, although I suppose he could have made Italian-suited ones, too.
If Isnard started to work c. 1715 or short after and the French suited decks started c. 1740, Isnard still has had c. 25 years to do something.
I have been looking at what Dummett says in Il Mondo e l'Angelo about Italian-suited tarot in Switzerland, Germany, and points east. It might be useful at this point for me to skip over Dummett's account of Milan, France, and Belgium temporarily. His chapter 15, on Italian-suited tarot outside of Italy (I TAROCCHI CON SEMI ITALIANI ALL’ESTERO) contains much material that I do not remember seeing in Game of Tarot.

First, Switzerland (p. 379f):
La nostra documentazione per le carte da tarocchi svizzere è ancora più scarsa che per le carte francesi: non posse-[end of 379] diamo un solo esempio risalente a prima del XVIII secolo. Più frequenti sono i riferimenti su documenti. Nel tedesco della Svizzera, il gioco è noto come ‘Trogga', Trogge', 'Troggen' o ‘Truggen'; in romancio, come ‘Troccas'. Il riferimento più antico è del 1572, un’ordinanza in cui troggen è citato, con altri due giochi di carte, come autorizzato6. Altri riferimenti del genere risalgono al 1588, 1593 e 1599. Continuano nel XVII secolo, nel 1620, 1627, 1650 e 1662, e fino al XVIII nel 1701, 1712, 1732 e 1741 7. Durante il XVIII secolo, il gioco diventò molto popolare nel bel mondo svizzero, e fra gli eruditi, incluso il celebre matematico Johann Bernoulli II 8. È interessante notare che in Svizzera il gioco dei Tarocchi era talvolta chiamato, senza alcun motivo, «Martin-Lüter-Spiel» («gioco di Martin Lutero») 9.

(Our documentation for Swiss tarot cards is even more scarce than for the French cards: we have [end of 379] only one example dating from before the eighteenth century. More frequent are the references in documents. In German Switzerland, the game is known as '‘Trogga', Trogge', 'Troggen' o ‘Truggen'; Romansh as 'Troccas’. The earliest reference is 1572, an order in which troggen is mentioned, along with two other card games, as authorized 6. Other references of this kind date back to 1588, 1593 and 1599. Continuing in the seventeenth century, in 1620, 1627, 1650 and 1662, and in the eighteenth, 1701, 1712, 1732, 17417. During the XVIIIth century, the game became very popular in the Swiss bel monde, and among scholars, including the famous mathematician Johann Bernoullis. It is interesting to note that in Switzerland the game of Tarot was sometimes called, for no reason, " Martin-Luther-Spiel" ("Game of Martin Luther") 9.
____________________________
6. Schwieizerdeutches Wörterbuch, Vol XIV, Frauenfeld, 1978 sv 'Trogge' and 'trogge(n)' coll. 676-9. I owe this source to Dr.. Peter Kopp.
7. For all these references, see the Schweizerdeutches Wörterbuch, ibid., and Grimm, Deutsches Wörterbuch, Vol XI, p. 1, quoting from Hoffmann-Krayer, Schweizerische Archiv für Folkskunde, Vol V, p. 281.
8. Balz Eberhard, 'Spielkarte und Spielkartensteuer in der Republik Helvetischen, 1798-180', Zeitschrift für Schweizerische Archäologie und Kunstgeschichte, Vol 30, 1973. 169-84, and 'Die Entwicklung der Tarocke in der Schweiz', Schweizer Spielkarten (catalog), Zurich, 1978, pp. 180-1. Eberhard mistakenly believes that the game of Tarot had not arrived in Switzerland before the XVIIIth century.
9. Schweizerdeutsches Wörterbuch, Vol. XIV, col. 676.
These footnotes are very helpful, especially the one for 1572. I am not sure that the game would be called "Martin Luther Spiel" for no reason. And by whom, Catholics or Protestants?
I've found Kopp's and Dummett's source (Footnote 9) ...
...see viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1023&p=15206#p15206
Then there is the question of how it came to Switzerland. Dummett argues for at least part of the country, that it was from Italy (p. 380f) :
Dai riferimenti cinquecenteschi pare probabile che il gioco dei Tarocchi sia giunto in Svizzera più o meno nella stessa epoca in cui si diffuse in Francia, e cioè all’inizio del XVI secolo, quando gli Svizzeri erano molto coinvolti nelle guerre in Lombardia, fino alla loro sconfitta a Marignano nel 1515. Ciò è reso ancora più probabile dal fatto che nella forma del gioco ancora praticata nel Cantone dei Grigioni sono rispettate due tipiche usanze italiane. Secondo la prima, dopo qualsiasi giro della distribuzione delle carte, qualsiasi giocatore può proporre che essa sia annullata; se tutti sono d’accordo, si rimettono insieme le carte e si dà il via a una nuova distribuzione. Per la seconda il giocatore che ha in mano il trionfo più alto può battere sul tavolo con le nocche per informare il compagno. La prima di queste usanze è ben nota con l’espressione «andare a monte» in molti giochi di carte italiani; la seconda, con variazioni, si trova nelle forme di Tarocchi bolognesi e si-[end of 280]ciliane e in altri giochi. Il gioco praticato nei Grigioni mostra scarsi segni di evoluzione ed è molto simile a quello descritto come tipico della Svizzera nella Maison académique del 1659; evidentemente, i giocatori di questa regione svizzera, come quelli di altre, sono molto conservatori. Il fatto che abbiano conservato queste due caratteristiche minori, ma tipicamente italiane, del gioco suggerisce una sua derivazione diretta dall’Italia piuttosto che dalla Francia. In una conferenza sul gioco di Troccas nei Grigioni, Mile. Carla Deplazes ha comunicato che il primo riferimento si trova in un libro di devozione del 1668, pubblicato a Scuol nell’Engadina, che afferma che a Dio non aggrada che si giochi al Tarocco la domenica, ma a suo parere il riferimento non significa molto essendo una traduzione dall’inglese. Tuttavia, è molto improbabile che l’originale inglese si riferisse al gioco del Tarocco; la menzione di questo gioco deve essere una sostituzione fatta dal traduttore, e perciò serve a riprova della pratica del gioco nei Grigioni a quel tempo. Per la ragione sopraddetta, nel 1668 il gioco era conosciuto in Svizzera probabilmente da centocinquant’anni.

(From the sixteenth-century references, it seems likely that the game of Tarot in Switzerland has come more or less in the same period in which it spread to France, and that is the beginning of the sixteenth century, when the Swiss were very involved in the wars in Lombardy, until their defeat at Marignano in 1515. This is made more likely by the fact that in the form of the game still practiced in the canton of Grisons are met two typical Italian customs. According to the first, after any round of cards are dealt, any player may propose that it be set aside; if everyone agrees, they recombine the cards and give way to a new distribution. The second player who holds the highest triumph can beat on the table with his knuckles to tell his partner. The first of these customs is well known by the expression "andare a monte" in many Italian card games; the second, with variations, is found in forms of Bolognese and Si-[end of 380]cilian Tarot and other games. The game played in Grisons shows little sign of evolution and is very similar to the one described as typical of Switzerland in the Maison académique 1659; obviously, the players of this region of Switzerland, like those of others, are very conservative. The fact that they kept these two minor features, typically Italian,in the game suggests its direct derivation from Italy rather than France. In a lecture on the game Troccas in Grisons, Mile. Carla Deplazes communicated that the first reference is in a book of devotion, in 1668, published at Scuol in Engadine, which states that God does not like Tarot games on Sundays, but in her opinion the reference does not mean much since it is a translation from English. However, it is very unlikely that the original English version was referring to the game of Tarot; the mention of this game should be a substitution done by the translator, and therefore serves as proof of the practice of the game in Grisons at that time. For the aforesaid reason, in 1668 the game was known in Switzerland probably for a hundred and fifty years.
150 years! That is quite a claim. Huck's proposal of the Swiss Guards is another idea. "Andare a monte" is an idiom normally meaning "come to nothing", but in card games something else, I haven't bothered to find out what; see http://www.dizionario.org/d/?pageurl=andare-a-monte.
Well, that's a blind shot, as there is no confirmation at the swiss side.

The cities, which are noted for Troggen use in the Western part of Grison belong to the upper-Rhine-valley, and they logically belong to a trade way to Italy.

Dummett/McLeod give this information for Grison (= "Graubünden") ... (my analysis):
Grison: "Troccas", 78 cards (Besancon), Grison said to be the location with highest concentration of players, at the almost Western part of Graubünden with Romansh language, named locations are Disentis (proud 2000 inhabitants today, more than 1100 m high), Ilanz (2000 inhabitants, 700 m) and Chur (35.000 inhabitants; 600 m)
Disentis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disentis
Lukmanier Pass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukmanier_pass

English wiki doesn't give much information, you have to use the German articles. The Lukmanier pass (a way to Italy) was still of importance in 15th century, but lost some of it during 16th century.

Another pass (Oberalp-pass) connected Disentis and other Swiss regions in West (Uri and behind Uri Ob- and Nidwalden).
Against the view that Tarot in Switzerland comes from Italy, there is the argument that since the decks used in the German speaking parts of Italy are written in French, the game spread there from the French-speaking cantons. But Dummett says:
L’uso, in regioni di lingua tedesca e romancia della Svizzera, di carte con scritte in francese suggerisce che il gioco si diffuse dapprima nei Cantoni di lingua francese. Questo argomento, però, non è conclusivo. Sappiamo dall’ordinanza del 1572 che il gioco era già praticato in Svizzera da parlanti in tedesco; ma la pratica di scrivere sulle carte i nomi dei trionfi ebbe origine probabilmente ottantanni più tardi. La conservazione delle scritte francesi significa solo che questa pratica fu introdotta, direttamente o indirettamente, dalla Francia, o almeno da aree di lingua francese.

(The use, in German and Romansh-speaking regions of Switzerland, of cards written in French suggests that the game spread first into the French-speaking cantons. This argument, however, is not conclusive. We know from the order of 1572 that the game was already practiced in Switzerland by German speakers; but the practice of writing the names on the cards of the triumphs originated probably eighty years later. The preservation of written French only means that this practice was introduced, directly or indirectly, from France, or at least areas of the French language.)
He is not sure where this practice of writing the titles came from, Switzerland or France, but of the three Parisian decks of the 17th century, titles are not on the Vieville but are on the Anonymous Parisian and Noblet. All are 1750-1770, he says. Hence the "eighty years".
There's a lot of time between 1572 and the French titles on the cards, this means almost nothing. One cannot form the argument, that the Swiss got the cards from France in the beginning of 1572.

There's something to say for the rest of the post ... but I've to close now.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#38
The Lukmanier pass connects Disentis, the major Swiss Troccas location, and Biasca on the Italian side (totally 64 km, 20 km from Disentis is the highest point, c. 1900 meters) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biasca

Biasca once belonged to Milan, but got during 15th century under Swiss control. From the Lukmanier pass wiki tells, that the medieval emperors had the Lukmanier pass as the major connection to Italy, but that later the Gotthard and Splügen pass became more important. Sigismund still used the Lukmanier pass, but Fredrick III didn't use it (likely due to the troublesome relation to Sforza in Milan and later cause of the Swiss control).

**********

Back to your post ...
mikeh wrote:
Dummett says:
L’uso, in regioni di lingua tedesca e romancia della Svizzera, di carte con scritte in francese suggerisce che il gioco si diffuse dapprima nei Cantoni di lingua francese. Questo argomento, però, non è conclusivo. Sappiamo dall’ordinanza del 1572 che il gioco era già praticato in Svizzera da parlanti in tedesco; ma la pratica di scrivere sulle carte i nomi dei trionfi ebbe origine probabilmente ottantanni più tardi. La conservazione delle scritte francesi significa solo che questa pratica fu introdotta, direttamente o indirettamente, dalla Francia, o almeno da aree di lingua francese.

(The use, in German and Romansh-speaking regions of Switzerland, of cards written in French suggests that the game spread first into the French-speaking cantons. This argument, however, is not conclusive. We know from the order of 1572 that the game was already practiced in Switzerland by German speakers; but the practice of writing the names on the cards of the triumphs originated probably eighty years later. The preservation of written French only means that this practice was introduced, directly or indirectly, from France, or at least areas of the French language.)
He is not sure where this practice of writing the titles came from, Switzerland or France, but of the three Parisian decks of the 17th century, titles are not on the Vieville but are on the Anonymous Parisian and Noblet. All are 1750-1770, he says. Hence the "eighty years".
I don't understand Dummett and his 80 years. I assume, 1750-1770 is your typo, you mean 1650-1670.

But the Tarot de Paris is given as c. 1600 by others and 1559 by myself. And the Tarot of Rouen (Leber Tarocchi) has titles at the cards. Well, these are not the common Tarot titles. The Sola Busca has titles, also not the common Tarot titles.
Dummett then turns to Germany:'
Ci sono prove contrastanti a proposito dell’arrivo del gioco in Germania. Verso la metà del XVIII secolo, troviamo giocatori tedeschi che usano una terminologia francese e giocatori viennesi che praticano un gioco di origine lombarda e usano termini italiani.

(There is conflicting evidence about the arrival of the game in Germany. Towards the middle of the XVIIIth century, we find German players who use French terminology and Viennese players who practice a game of Lombard origin and use Italian terms.
The Germans--here Dummett includes Alsace--clearly did not have the tarot in 1590, when the German translator (publishing in Strassburg) greatly expanded Gargantua's list of games but did not include tarot.
Johann Fischart, which you call here profanly the "translator of Garantua's list", was a German language giant, something like a 16th century James Joyce. He wrote mainly in the 1570s, not 1590. 1591 he was dead. He didn't really translate Rabelais, but exaggerated Rabelais.

It's true, that he didn't translate Tarau with Tarot or Tarocchi or similar. But this does't mean, that he didn't know Tarocchi cards.
Actually it seems, that he knew them and that he even knew about their prohibition in Geneve, and that already in the 1570s (well, we know of Troggen prohibitions in Geneve, but not as early as 1570). But we know already of difficulties between Calvin and a playing card producer already in the 1540s.
I gave my position here, 2 years ago:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=837&p=11911&hilit=fischart#p11911
Yet the Maison Academique in 1659 says that the Germans played nothing else! Dummett proposes:
Ivan Honl asserisce, in un libro del 1947, che le carte da tarocchi sono nominate per la prima volta in Boemia nel 1596 11. È pertanto possibile che il gioco entrasse originariamente in Germania dalla Svizzera e non dalla Francia, e che divenisse popolare nella parte orientale del paese e in Boemia prima di raggiungere la Germania occidentale.

(Ivan Honl claims, in a book of 1947, that tarot cards are named for the first time in Bohemia in 1596 11. It is therefore possible that the game originally came to Germany from Switzerland and France, and it became popular in the eastern part of the country and in Bohemia before reaching western Germany.
___________________
11. 20. Honl, Z Minulosti Karetní hry v Cechách, Prague, 1947, p. 31. Unfortunately, Honl does not provide complete data.
But what kind of deck would they have used? Dummett says that it could have been the Tarot of Besancon, wending its way west:
I tarocchi con semi italiani pervenutici, prodotti nell’Europa Centrale nel XVIII secolo, esemplificano quasi tutti il Tarocco dì Besançon; le poche eccezioni sono esempi della versione lombarda del Tarocco di Marsiglia. Possiamo solo ipotizzare quale tipo di tarocchi fosse originariamente usato in Germania e Boemia; forse si trattava di una versione del Tarocco di Besançon senza le scritte, che potrebbero essere state aggiunte nel corso del XVII secolo, quando i fabbricanti di carte dell’Alsazia (francese dal 1648) o di altre parti della Francia cominciarono a esportare mazzi di tarocchi in Germania. In tal caso, i mazzi del Tarocco di Besançon con scritte in francese potrebbero essere stati originariamente introdotti in Svizzera dalla Germania. Queste, naturalmente, sono semplici congetture; ci mancano i dati per trarre deduzioni sicure.

(The surviving tarots with Italian suits produced in Central Europe in the eighteenth century almost all exemplify the Tarot of Besançon; the few exceptions are examples of the Lombard version of the Tarot of Marseilles. We can only speculate what type of tarot cards were originally used in Germany and Bohemia; perhaps it was a version of the Tarot of Besançon without the lettering, which may have been added during the seventeenth century, when the card makers of Alsace (French from 1648) or other parts of France began to export tarot decks into Germany. In this case, the decks of the Tarot of Besançon with writing in French may have been originally introduced into Switzerland from Germany. This, of course, is pure conjecture; we lack the data to draw reliable conclusions.)
That concludes Dummett's discussion. The Lombard version in Milan, Dummett says elsewhere in the book, would have come from Milan in the 18th century, when Austria ruled Lombardy. The 1648 date is misleading; Strasbourg did not come under French control until 1681 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace#Inc ... nto_France).

From Depaulis we have more data; but at the same time he only presents a coherent picture by discounting Dummett's sources, dismissing the Maison Academique as totally unconfirmed and not mentioning Honl.


Wrong. Depaulis notes Honl in his IPCS article at page 69-70 with more than a half page and considerable research.
Maybe they should be dismissed, I don't know. Tarot in Bohemia might have been brought by the Hapsburgs, since Prague was their capital then; Rudolf II was interested in all sorts of curiosities. Or it had come originally to Innsbruck by way of Bianca Maria Sforza, husband of Maximilian I, and somehow hung on. Or on a more popular level, it might have come up from Italy in the same way as Trappola, from Venice. I can't imagine that it would have been the Besançon in 1599. That would require both the Tarot de Marseille and the Besancon to have been invented in Switzerland or Italy in the 16th century, a formidable proposition. It is barely conceivable to me that both would have come from there in the 17th century. There was no motive for defying tradition and removing the Pope and Popess there. And while Swiss did migrate to Strasbourg in the later 17th century, they were mostly Anabaptists, according to Wikipedia. They would have had no use for the tarot. Surely Depaulis is right that it was invented in Strasbourg around 1710.

But that Depaulis does not find evidence of tarot in Germany before 1659 does not mean it wasn't there. The 30 Years War destroyed a lot of evidence. If Germans played tarot before 1648, it seems to me, there is no telling where it would have come from, Switzerland, France, Italy, or (least probably) the Hapsburg Empire.
Hm ...

I remember this problem: What was Germany and what was France at which time?

Let's take Lorraine:
Duchy of Upper Lorraine

Cross of Lorraine, symbol of Lorraine since the 15th century
In 953 the German king Otto I had appointed his brother Bruno the Great Duke of Lotharingia. In 959, Bruno divided the duchy into Upper and Lower Lorraine which became permanent following his death in 965. The Upper Duchy was further "up" the river system, that is, it was inland and to the south. Upper Lorraine was first denominated as the Duchy of the Moselle, both in charters and narrative sources, and its duke was the dux Mosellanorum. The usage of Lotharingia Superioris and Lorraine in official documents begins later, around the fifteenth century. The first duke and deputy of Bruno was Frederick I of Bar, son-in-law of Bruno's sister Hedwig of Saxony.

Lower Lorraine disintegrated into several smaller territories and only the title of a "Duke of Lothier" remained, held by Brabant. After the duchy of the Moselle came into the possession of René of Anjou the name "Duchy of Lorraine" was adopted again, only retrospectively called "Upper Lorraine". At that time several territories had already split off, like the County of Luxembourg and the Electorate of Trier, or the County of Bar and the "Three Bishoprics" of Verdun, Metz and Toul.

The border between the Empire and the Kingdom of France remained relatively stable throughout the Middle Ages. In 1301 Count Henry III of Bar had to receive the western part of his lands (Barrois mouvant) as a fief by King Philip IV of France. The Burgundian duke Charles the Bold in 1475 campaigned for the Duchy of Lorraine, but finally was defeated and killed at the 1477 Battle of Nancy. In 1552 a number of insurgent Protestant Imperial princes around Elector Maurice of Saxony by the Treaty of Chambord ceded the Three Bishoprics to King Henry II of France in turn for his support.

In the 17th century, the French kings began to covet Lorraine. While the central Imperial authority decayed in the course of the Thirty Years' War, Chief Minister Cardinal Richelieu urged the occupation of the duchy in 1641. France again had to vacate it after the 1648 Peace of Westphalia, which however won France several positions in Alsace, east of Lorraine. In 1670, the French invaded again, forcing Duke Charles V to flee to a Viennese exile, where he formed strong ties to the Imperial House of Habsburg. France occupied the Duchy for almost thirty years, only giving it up in the Treaty of Ryswick which ended the Nine Years' War in 1697. During the War of the Spanish Succession, parts of Lorraine, including the capital Nancy, were again occupied by France, but Duke Leopold Joseph continued to reign at the Château de Lunéville.

In 1737, after the War of the Polish Succession, Lorraine was part of an agreement between France, the House of Habsburg and the Lorraine House of Vaudémont: The Duchy was given to Stanisław Leszczyński, the former king of Poland and father-in-law to King Louis XV of France, who despite French support had lost out to a candidate backed by Russia and Austria in the War of the Polish Succession. The Lorraine duke Francis Stephen, betrothed to the Emperor's daughter Archduchess Maria Theresa, was compensated with the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, where the last Medici ruler had recently died without issue. France also promised to support Maria Theresa as heir to the Habsburg possessions under the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713. Leszczyński received Lorraine with the understanding that it would fall to the French crown upon his death. When Stanisław died on 23 February 1766, Lorraine was annexed by France and reorganized as a province by the French government.
That's often a rather dubious case, if Lorraine belonged to the German Empire or France. Earlier it was more German than French.

And there we meet Isabella, Queen of Lorraine in 1449, when she gets a Trionfi deck of Iacopo Antonio Marcello. Well, perhaps she isn't in Lorraine, just for the moment.
And we meet Rene II, duke of Lorraine, playing with Trionfi cards. 1495 or so.
And we have a duke Charles III in 1599, interested to have a Tarot production in Lorraine, involved is a Catelin Geoffroy, working in Lyon. It's true, that Charles III had a strong French position in this time.

The academy 1659 and the King's physian in 1655 might have easily taken Lorraine as a German region, when they talked of Tarot in Germany.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#39
Thanks, Huck. [Note added later: your second post came through while I was posting this one. I just noticed it, after yet another posting.] Reading Kopp's article ("Das Tarockspiel in der Schweiz", The Playing Card, vol 12 No. 2 (1983), pp. 45-59 I see that he, like Dummett, thinks that tarot came into Switzerland very early, around the beginning of the 16th century, due to the trade route. I give a rough approximation in English of his words. Please correct if I misunderstand:
Nun kann man sich fragen, ob das Tarockspiel, das nach Michael Dummett um 1440 in Oberitalien erfunden wurde, wirklich 130 Jahre gebraucht hat, um den Gotthard zu überwinden? Die Handes-beziehungen gerade der Innerschweizer über den Gotthard-Pass waren sehr rege. Ausserdem versuchten die Bewohner der Urkantone seit 1410 auf Kosten den Herzogs von Mailand südlich des Gotthards Gebiete zu erobern. 1512 unterwarfen die Schweizer als verbündete des Papstes Mailand und die ganze Lombardei, gewannen nach der Niederlage von Marignano 1515 immerhin den dauernden Besitz des Tessins und auch später beteiligten sich bedeutende Scharen von Schweizer Söldern an den Kriegen um Mailand. Dabei waren nicht nur Analphabeten, sondern namentlich unter den Schreibern und Offizieren auch Gebildete. z.B. der Maler, Dichter und Staatsmann Niklaus Manuel von Bern. Nicht zu vergessen sind ferner die wohl aus Zürich stammenden Spielkarten mit italienischen Farbzeichen, welche an der Zürcher Ausstellung zu sehen waren.

Ich möchte somit die Annahme vorschlagen, dass das Tarockspiel in der Schweiz (und auch in Frankreich) spätestens anfangs des 16. Jahrhunderts bekannte war.

(Now one may ask whether the Tarockspiel, which for Michael Dummett was inventedin 1440 in northern Italy, really needed 130 years to overcome the Gotthard? The foot traffic straight from Central Switzerland via the Gotthard Pass was very active. Moreover the inhabitants of the original cantons since 1410 tried, at the expense of the Duke of Milan, to conquer territories south of the Gotthard Pass. 1512 threw the Swiss as allied with the Pope and the whole Milan Lombardy, won after the defeat at Marignano in 1515, after all, the permanent possession of Ticino, and also later involved significant crowds of Swiss soldiers in the wars around Milan. Among them were not only illiterates, but especially among the scribes and officers also educated ones. e.g. the painter, poet and statesman Niklaus Manuel of Berne. Not to forget also indeed, coming from Zurich, playing cards with Italian color signs, which were seen at the Zurich exhibition.

I would therefore suggest the assumption that the Tarockspiel in Switzerland (and also in France) was known no later than the beginning of the 16th century.)
, in connection with the game of Karnoffel, of which the same area seems to have been an early center, which in its scoring of combinations (russ = rauschen =? fluss) seems more similar to tarot than has been thought. Dummett did not talk about combinations. But I don't know if I understood Kopp correctly.
Es fällte auf, dass in allen Innerschweizer Quellen das Tarockspiel gleichwertig mit dem Kaisern erscheint. Deshalb erscheint es mit sinnvoll, hierauf einen eventuellen Zusammenhang einzugehen.

Nach Vorschlag von Rudi von Leyden waren wir geneigt, Tarock als Vater aller Kartenspiele zu betrachten und namentlich anzunehmen, der Trumpf sei vom Tarock her ins Kaiserspiel übernommen worden. Nun zeigt es sich, dass das Karnöffelspiel bereits 1426 in Nördlingcn belegt, also eher älter ist als der Tarock. Wenn ich Michael Dummett recht verstehe, neigt er zur Ansicht, dass die beiden Spiele unabhängig voneinander je eine eigene Möglichkeit von Trumpfkarten entwickelt haben (S.l90) und nur der Name Trumpf aus dem italienischen Trionfo herzuleiten ist. Das erscheint mir einleuchtend. Die von Rudi von Leyden betonte “sozial-geschichtliche”, ich möchte sagen: rebellische Komponente des Trumpfes kommt in erster Linie im Kaiserspiel zum Ausdruck: nicht besondere, ausserhalb der gewöhnlichen Hierarchie stehende Karten sind Trümpfe, sondern durch Umschlagen wird eine Farbe zum Trumpf erwählt und dadurch können an such niedrigere Karten höhere stechen. Dieser Gedanke kommt im Spätmittelalter häufig vor und liegt u.a. den Totentänzen und der “Verkehrten Welt” zugrunde.

Wie aber steht es in diesem Zusammenhang mit dem “Kaiser” im Karnöffelspiel? Im schweizerischen Kaiserspiel heissen die Banner, also die Zehnerkarten "Kaiser” und haben auch dem Spiel den Namen gegeben. Aber auch im “Flüsslis” ist das so, ferner in einem mittelalterlichen Spiel, das in der Schweiz “russen”, hochdeutsch “rauschen" genannt wurde." Dieses wird durch den höchsten "Russ” entscheiden, wobei mir noch nicht klar ist, ob darunter eine Konbination von Karten oder eine einzelne Karte zu verstehen ist.

Immerhin scheint mir alles daraufhin zu deuten, dass “russen/rauschen” ein Zeigespicl und nicht ein Stichspiel war. In diesem Fall dürfen wir die

(It happens, that Tarockspiel appears equally in all Innerschweizer sources with Emperors. Therefore, it seems to make sense to take any link thereto. Following a proposal by Rudi von Leyden we were inclined to regard it as the father of all Tarot cards and especially to assume that the trump in Tarot had been born in the game of Emperors. Now it turns out that the Karnöffelspiel already in 1426 is in Nördlingcn, so is rather older than Tarot. If I understand Michael Dummett rightly, he tends to believe that the two games always independently developed their own manner of trump cards (p. 190) and the name trump is only derived from the Italian Trionfo. This seems obvious to me. The "social-historical" stressed by Rudi von Leyden, I would say rebellious component of the trumps comes primarily in Kaiserspiel to be expressed: not with special trump cards, standing outside of the ordinary hierarchy cards, but by turning over a suit chosen to trump and thus lower cards can stand higher. This idea comes often in the late Middle Ages, and is part of the dances of death and the "perverse world" basis.

But what in this context is the "Emperor" in Karnöffelspiel? In the Swiss game both the Banner and the Tens are called the Emperor, which also gave the game its name. But also in the "Flüsslis" that is so, also in a medieval game was called "russ"in Switzerland, that in high German is "rausch", noise. ""Russ" decides what is the highest, which to me is not yet clear whether is to be understood as including a combination of cards or a single card.)
According to Wikipedia (the "Banner" is just another name for the Ten; "Banner" means "sandard-bearer". But for Kopp the Banner and the Ten are different.

There follows some quotations from court cases of the time involving the game, after which Kopp decides:
In andern Belegen wird gewettet, wer den “grössten Russ” vermöchte; der “Russ” kommt aber auch in den Spielen “Quenzen” und “Hunderten” vor.15 Ein Hinweis, der zur Annahme berechtigen könnte, es handle sich dabei um andere Namen für das Kaisern, fehlt; bloss die Bezeichnung “Kaiser” für einen bestimmten Kartenwert ist diesen Spielen gemeinsam.

Ich möchte daraus zwei Schlüsse ziehen und zur Diskussion stellen:

1. Den Kaiser-Karten kam eine besondere, spielentscheidende Bedeutung zu, unabhängig von der Existenz eines gewählten Trumpfes, aber ähnlich wie bei einem gesten Trumpf in der Art des Tarock.

2. Das Kaiser- oder Karnöffelspiel kann zwar in der Schweiz erst 1572 belegt werden (wie der Tarock), doch besteht kein Grund, anzunehmen, dass es nicht schon um die gleiche Zeit, da es in Deutschland und Oberitalien erwähnt ist, auch in der Schweiz bekannt war.

(In other documents it is betted, who could be the "largest Russ"; but "Russ" also occurs in the games "Quenzen” and “Hunderten” (15). A note, which could entitle us to believe that this deals with different names for the Emperors, is missing; merely the name "Kaiser" for a specific card value is common to these games.

I want to draw two conclusions and put up for discussion:

1 The Kaiser cards had a special game-deciding importance, regardless of the existence of a designated trump, but similar to a gesture Trump in the Art of the Tarot.

2 Emperors or Karnöffelspiel can indeed be situated in Switzerland first in 1572 (like the Tarot), but there is no reason to assume that it is not already known in Switzerland at the same time as it is mentioned in Germany and Northern Italy,)
So already in Karnöffel there are special cards, irrespective of the trump suit. I find all this quite interesting, for strengthening the connection between the German/German Swiss game of Karnöffel and the Italian game of "Emperors", from which Tarot would evolve, as I have explored earlier in this thread.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo"

#40
Since Kopp, besides Italy, also mentions France, I want to point out an interesting document in the article of Depaulis's that Huck gave a link to. http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/carte- ... -sec..html.

What is of interest is the inventory of the shop of a "cartaro" in Rome of 1557. I am not going to translate. [In brackets, I add Depaulis's more accurate translation, from the English original of his article] "Uno, due, tres, quattro, dieci, dozine" you know. "Scacchi" is chess; [actually, "sheet of checkered backs"] "picculi" means "little"; "formata" is "sized" [actually, "colored"; "stampa" is "print" [Depaulis says "pullout"]. "mazzo" and "para" are "pack"; "ligati" is "tied" [Depauis: "wrapped"; "dipinte" is "painted"; "tagliati" is "cut" [Depaulis: trimmed]; "senza" is "without"; "bianche" is "white"; "fatte" is "made". [Also, "marco" or "marcho" is "imprint",

On May 3 1559, Riches (?) of the inventory of Mr. Dominico Card-dealer as said:
A di 3 di maggio 1559. Richeza (?) Per conto di m.ro Domenico Cartaro al detto

Prima Quattro riversi et dui Scacchi, scudi 1.20
Una stampa di Tarocchi picculi formata, scudi 1,50
Una stampa di Tarocchi grandi formata, 2 scudi
Tre para di Stampe di carte formate, scudi 4,50
Una stampa di Tarocchi Todini, scudi 0,50
Tarocchi ligati a Mazzi para 120, 12 scudi
Tarocchi ligati in carta bianca para 35, scudi 3,85
Tarocchi Todini forniti para 17, scudi 2.20
Carte ligate a Mazzi para 88, scudi 4,40
Carte ligate in carta bianca romanesche para 200, scudi 10
Carte romanesche ligate in carta bianca para 30, scudi 1,65
Tarocchi Romaneschi ligati in carta bianca para 7, scudi 0,75
Tarocchi senza carta tagliati para 20, scudi 0,70
Carte dipinte para 30, scudi 0,90
Carte bianche in cartone para 175, scudi 1,40
Tarocchi Bianchi senza carte para 150, scudi 0,90
Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 93, scudi 13
Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 14, scudi 12
Tarocchi ferraresi cum li dieci De Marco Antonio de Janui dozine 24, scudi 19
Carte romane fatte a Lion di Francia marcho di Moret dozine 36, scudi 1,80
Carte romanesche larghe fatte Lion fenite e ligate in carta bianca dozine cinque, scudi 2,50
There are tarot packs for players from all over, even special ones for Todi, not otherwise known. Depaulis says (I don't know how) that the majority of these packs {added later" I got this wrong; these are ordinary packs] are from Lyons, and the majority of those from one producer, Janin [should have been Moret], listed by d'Allemagne as "Lyons 1557". [Omit the next sentence of my original post: "He produced tarot decks in various types, even in the style of Ferrara"; I conflated two "Antoines" into one. I thank Huck for his private message pointing out my confusion. My next sentence and quote is an addition. But for some reason, perhaps the name "Janui" (does it exist in Italian?), Depaulis also thinks that Antonio de Janui is from Lyons: "...di uno Janui Antonio, cui ho il sospetto che sia Antoine Janin (di Lione?). (...of a Janui Antonio, whom I suspect of being Antoine Janin (of Lyons?).]

After discussing the meaning of "white cards" and "uncut cards" (probably for the shop to cut and paint the backs of as replacement cards, blending in with the other cards of the deck) Depaulis concludes:
Un altro punto sorprendente è che non vi è alcuna menzione sulle carte fiorentine. A causa della forte dipendenza di Roma sulle carte da gioco fiorentine - come abbiamo visto, intorno al 1480, furono importate da Firenze a Roma un gran numero di carte da ‘Jugare e trionfi’ - ci si aspetterebbe una sorta di magazzino di Domenico di Biagio di carte fiorentine . Ovviamente non ci sono: ne semplici carte ne tantomeno varianti dei tarocchi che hanno a che vedere con Firenze Carte da gioco ordinarie rappresentano la maggior parte del magazzino di Domenico . Essi sono divise in semplici, carte da gioco non specificate, alcuni "dipinto", di cui vi è una minore quantità, e le carte "romanesche" (o "romane"), per un totale di più di 700 confezioni di vario tipo. Sorprendentemente la maggior parte proviene da Lione, in Francia, prodotte da Antoine Moret (menzionato nell’ D'Allemagne "Lyons, 1557"), e altre 60 confezioni prodotte a Lione.

(Another striking point is that there is no mention of Florentine cards. Because of the strong dependence of Rome on Florentine playing cards - as we have seen, around 1480, a large number of cards 'Jugare and triumphs' were imported from Florence to Rome - here you would expect of Domenico di Biagiosome some sort of warehouse of Florentine cards. Obviously there is not: neither simple cards nor variants of tarot cards, nor are Florentine playing cards seen that represent ordinary playing cards in the majority of the stock of Dominic. They are divided into simple, playing cards not specified, some "painted", of which there is a lesser amount, and the cards "romanesche" (or "Roman"), for a total of more than 700 packs of various types. Surprisingly, the majority come from Lyon, France, produced by Antoine Moret (mentioned in the 'D'Allemagne "Lyons, 1557"), and the other 60 packs manufactured in Lyons.)
Since Rome was a pilgrimage city, it is not surprising that one could buy cards typical of various places. I do not think it says anything about the game that the Swiss Guards would have learned. They were in general isolated from the population and would have been taught only what was played in the Vatican. What it shows is the immense importance of Lyon at that time as a manufacturer of cards of all sorts, including tarot, for a variety of localities.In particular it reinforces the Ferrara-France connection (but not the Ferrarese order of trumps) via Avignon.

The significance of Depaulis's discovery will be clear if we review what Dummett says about tarot in 16th century France. I am only concerned here with documents indicating tarot production and use, not the type of decks used or anything about their imagery. [Added after reading Depaulis in English: actually, Depaulis's article is not very significant when it comes to tarot production in France, since I had conflated the two Antoines and misread the "Lyons" entry as being about tarot. Although Depaulis does think the "Ferrarese" tarots were produced by someone from Lyons, I am not sure why other than perhaps the name, these probably were made in Ferrara, since the place of production is not indicated. However what Dummett says is still of interest regarding tarot in France during this time, the 16th century.]

TAROT IN FRANCE IN THE 16TH CENTURY: DUMMETT CHAPTER 14

I start at the beginning of the chapter (p. 351).
Non sorprende scoprire che il mazzo dei tarocchi era ancora sconosciuto in Francia nel 1465. In quell’anno furono redatti, in latino e provenzale, gli statuti della più antica associazione di maestri fabbricanti di carte costituitasi in Francia, quella di Tolosa: essi fanno riferimento a «naips sive cartas», ma non accennano mai a triumphi. Già nel 1507, tuttavia, se la citazione di Chobaut è corretta, carte da tarocchi venivano prodotte a Avignone1. La letteratura francese del XVI secolo è piena di riferimenti al gioco. Il più antico si trova nel Gargantua di Rabelais (1534). Esso è seguito dai Paradoxes di Charles Étienne (1553), l’anonimo ‘Chambrière à louer à tout faire’ del decennio 1560-70, il Libro V di Gargantua et Pantagruel (1564), la Mitistoire barragouyne de Fanfreluche et Gandichon[/] di Guillaume des Autels (1574), Les facétieuses nuits di G.F. Straparola, tradotte da Pierre de Larivey Champenois (1576), Le Plaisir des champs (1583) di Claude Gauchet, Les Bigarrures di Tabourot (anche 1583), Le Triomphe du berlan di J. Perrache (1585)2, Après dìsnées di Cholières (anche 1585), il libro di G. Delamothe del 1592 per insegnare il francese agli inglesi 3, il Supplément del [end of 351] 1595 alla Satyre Ménippée (opera di parecchi autori contro gli oppositori di Enrico di Navarra) e infine il Passe-temps di Le Poulchre dello stesso anno. Oltre a questi, abbiamo una deposizione in giudizio che fa cenno a una vera e propria partita di Tarocchi a cui parteciparono due gentiluomini e che si svolse nel 1579 in una locanda di Grenoble; e, dello stesso anno, un rimprovero di un concistoro protestante a dei soldati che avevano giocato a Tarocchi 4. E evidente che il gioco divenne ben noto in Francia nel XVI secolo.

It is not surprising to find that the tarot deck was still unknown in France in 1465. During that year, the statutes of the oldest association of master card makers formed in France, that of Toulouse. were written in Latin and Provencal; they refer to "naips sive cartas," but never mentions triumphi. As early as 1507, however, if Chobaut’s citation is correct, tarot cards were produced in Avignon 1. French literature of the sixteenth century is full of references to the game. The oldest is in the Gargantua of Rabelais (1534). It is followed by the Paradoxes of Charles Etienne (1553), the anonymous 'Chambrière à louer à tout faire' of the decade 1560-70, Book V of Gargantua et Pantagruel (1564), the Mitistoire barragouyne de Fanfreluche et Gandichon (1574), Les nuits facétieuses de Straparola, translated by Pierre de Larivey Champenois (1576), Le Plaisir des champs (1583) by Claude Gauchet, Les Bigarrures of Tabourot (also 1583), Le Triomphe du Berlan by J. Perrache (1585) 2, Après dìsnées by Cholières (also 1585) and the book by G. Delamothe 1592 for teaching French to English people 3, the Supplément of [end of 351] 1595 to Satyre Ménippée (the work of many authors against the opponents of Henry of Navarre) and finally Le Passe-temps by Poulchre of the same year. In addition to these, we have a deposition in court that suggests a real game of Tarot engaged in by two gentlemen, which took place in 1579 at an inn in Grenoble; and, the same year, a rebuke of a Protestant consistory to the soldiers who had played Tarot 4. It is evident that the game became well known in France in the sixteenth century.
__________________
1. The Statute nayperiorum are reproduced in H.-R. D’Allemagne, Les Cartes à jouuer, Paris, 1906, Vol II, pp. 528-35. For comments on the quotation of H. Chobaut of the documents of the master card makers in Avignon, see Note 2 of Chapter XIII.
2. All references to the game of Tarot in this rare poem, published in Paris in 1585, for which I am indebted to Thierry Depaulis, appear in folio 15 verso, folio 17 recto and folio 19 recto.
3. G. Delamothe, The French Alphabeth, London, 1592, p. 150-1.
4. See E. Le Roy Ladurie, Le Carnaval de Romans, Paris, 1979, p. 91, and Janine Garrisson-Estère, Protestants du Midi, 1559-1598, Toulouse, 1980, p. 314, note 82.

But there are none of the prohibitions of card games with exclusions for tarot that helped to document the game's early presence in Italy. There is even no record of taxes on cards until 1581 (p. 352):
La prima legge di questo tipo fu promulgata da Enrico HI nel 1581 e applicata solo alle carte da esportazione; ad essa fece seguito l’editto del 1583 che imponeva una tassa su tutte le carte da gioco: 1 soil per un mazzo normale, 2 sous per un mazzo di tarocchi. A quell’epoca, Rouen e Lione rivaleggiavano come maggiori centri di produzione di carte da gioco in Francia.

(The first law of this kind was promulgated in 1581 by Henry III and applied only to cards from export; it was followed by the edict of 1583, which imposed a tax on all playing cards: 1 sou for a normal deck, 2 sous for a deck of tarot cards. At that time, Rouen and Lyon competed as major centers of production of playing cards in France.)

The tax met with strong protest on the part of card makers and some in Rouen went to Flanders or England. In Lyon some, according to the protestors, went to Savoy, Spain, Switzerland and Lorraine. The law was canceled or suspended in both places in 1586.
Dummett continues (p. 353):
Pertanto, alla fine del XVI secolo — e probabilmente molto prima di allora — si producevano mazzi di tarocchi sia a Lione che a Rouen. Essi venivano prodotti anche a Parigi; nei loro statuti del 1594, i maestri fabbricanti di carte di Parigi ripetutamente definivano la loro professione come quella di cartiers et faiseurs de cartes, tarotz, feuiletz et cartons (cartai e fabbricanti di carte, tarocchi, foglietti e cartoni) 7. Proprio alla fine del secolo, nel 1599, la produzione iniziò anche a Nancy; fino a quel momento, la Lorena aveva importato carte da Lione, ma in quell’anno il duca Carlo III ordinò l’apertura di laboratori a Nancy per produrre «cartes, taraulx et dés» (carte, tarocchi e dadi) 8.

(Therefore, at the end of the sixteenth century - and probably long before then - Tarot decks were produced both in Lyon and Rouen. They were also produced in Paris; in their statutes of 1594, the master card makers of Paris repeatedly defined their profession such as cartiers et faiseurs de cartes, tarotz, feuilez et cartons (card makers and makers of cards, tarots, folios and cardboard) 7. Right at the end of the century, in 1599, production also began to Nancy; until that time, Lorraine had imported cards from Lyon, but in that year the Duke Charles III ordered the opening of workshops in Nancy to produce "cartes, taraulx et dés" (cards, tarot and dice) 8.
______________________
6. H.-R. D’Allemagne, op. cit,. Vol. I, p. 294, NS Vol. Il, p. 242.
7. Ibid,, Vol. II, pp. 60-2.
8. Ibid., Vol. II, pp. 212-3.)

The obvious question is, how long before 1583 were tarot packs being produced? On the one hand, the statutes make it look like it had just started, and the lawmakers were not letting it go by untaxed without a fight. On the other hand, the literary references make it look like tarot was well known by the 1530s, and in Avignon at least, even 1507. That date is now back to 1505, thanks to Depaulis in another essay. No doubt in the 1580s the statutes of the card makers of Toulouse still had no mention of tarot.

The only surviving deck of that time and place is the incomplete one of Tarot de Marseille order, numbered but without written titles, signed by Catelin Geoffroy of 1557 Lyons. It has the usual subjects but in a non-standard way. The only record of a card maker of that name starts in 1582 (p. 353f):
. 1 registri ci informano che un Catelin Geoffroy lavorò come fabbricante di carte a Lione fra il 1582 e il 160310 e la lettera del duca Carlo III di Lorena, che autorizzava l’avvio della produzione di carte a Nancy, esortava i fabbricanti a produrre carte e tarocchi «così buoni e raffinati come quelli fatti a Lione sotto il nome di Cathelin Geoffroy» 11.

(The registries inform us that a Catelin Geoffroy worked as a card manufacturer in Lyon between 1582 and 1603 10, and the letter of Duke Charles III of Lorraine, authorizing the start of production of cards in Nancy, urging manufacturers to produce cards and tarot cards "as good and refined as those made in Lyon under the name of Cathelin Geoffroy" (11).)
_______________________
10. H.-R. D' Allemagne, op. cit. Vol II, p. 212.
11. Ibid. The letter says that the cards and the Tarots «seront et devront aussy belles et bonnes que celles qui se font à Lion souhz le nom de Cathelin Geoffroy ».

Dummett presumes that it is the son of the maker of the deck in question. It is sometmes argued that the Geoffroy is an isolated case done as a curiosity. [Omit next sentence: "The card-seller's inventory in Rome of 1557 puts that notion to rest." Actually, all it suggests is that a tarot maker with a name suggesting Lyons was in Ferrara making tarot cards. If he is actually from Lyons, he may have made or soon after be making tarot cards in Lyons.]

So it is clear [change that to "likely] that the only way that Henry III got something about the tarot from his visit to Ferrara in 1574 was its being drawn to his attention as a source of revenue. The tarot was [change that to "probably was" in France long before, from Avignon to Lyons and Rouen, and from there elsewhere. [Delete next sentence: "To have comprised so much of a Roman shop's inventory in 1559, Lyons must have been a production center for quite a while, it seems to me.] Already in 1534 Rabelais knows about it (2 years after moving to Lyons and publishing his first book, per Wikipedia) and shows off his information to his readers. Who knows how long it had been being produced in Lyons by then? 20 years is not out of the question; and so, indeed, the game is mass-produced in France by the early part of the 16th century. Whether it was primarily to meet the demands of returning soldiers is another question. There were also state visits of nobles between the two countries, e.g. Alfonso I of Ferrara in his travels, and from the courts to the people.

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