Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#161
Thanks for the historical examples of Fools with trumpets and drums, Huck. Lacroix's card, whatever deck it comes from, seems derivative from the Hofämterspiel. The PMB Fool, in its image of a long pole, might derive from that, or vice versa.

But it seems to me, Phaeded, that if the artist had wanted to suggest that it was a trumpet, he would have given more pictorial clues, because given his disheveled appearance, he is more in need of a club, to fend off attackers, than a trumpet.

Attackers are also suggested in the "Charles VI" Fool, with the boys throwing stones. Children in those days had the job of killing with stones or at least driving out of the city demented individuals; see SteveM's citation of Emile Male on this custom at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=383&p=6993&hilit=stones#p6993 and mine at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=609&p=10573&hilit=stones#p10573. In the Tarot de Marseille, the dog has that function.

It seems to me that there is a striation line suggesting wood on the PMB card's instrument, near the top.

As for Giotto's Stultia, I think the point was to create a satire of the Pope, since he is blessing with one hand. (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5e7P4Y3Wo3w/S ... vegni1.jpg). In that case, what would be satirical and humorous about a trumpet? And why wouldn't he have drawn the open end? But a club makes perfect sense: the Pope blesses with one hand, and clubs people (heretics and those who disrespect his authority) with the other. People would then associate this club with the PMB's, since the figures are similar, unless there was something telling them not to.

Hucck wrote
The suits should be sorted hierarchically, cause some games use this function ...
for instance: Bridge ... it uses the ranking of the suits in its bidding system (and the bidding is very important). Highest is pique, then hearts, then diamonds and clubs finally.

Skat uses the ranking of the suits inside the bidding system and in the play (the ranking decides the highest, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Jack, which all are highest trumps in the game. Doppelkopf uses it only in the play. And there are likely a lot of other games (especially trick taking games), which use the ranking. We simplest way to organize the ranking is "by numbers" (we know this from Tarot, which uses numbers to set up its trump hierarchy).
As I've said, these are not 15th century games, even late 15th century.

The best argument I can see for a hierarchy among suits in the 15th century is the "Mantegna", with its ABCDE (http://www.trionfi.com/0/c/karn/wheel2.html)
A means Atutto (trumps)
B means Bastoni (batons)
C means Coppe (cups)
D means Denari (discs, coins)
E means Espadone (swords)
where in the later series E is changed to S for Spade.

This works in French, too

A means Atout
B means Bastons
C means Coupes (in the sense of "chalice")
D means Deniers
E means Epées

For the names of the French suits, it doesn't work. However if they are arranged alphabetically we have, ignoring the Atouts and numbering them as you prefer (so as not to belabor that point, and with associations between number and shape, as you wish, although for this argument these are not necessary, as opposed to the alphabetical order, which is what characterizes the "Mantegna"):

0 is Carreaux (a circle, as you insist, perhaps related to German Bells)
1 is Coeurs (we only have one heart, but two of many other body parts)
2 is Piques (two ends of a sword or spear--or of a leaf, or its sides, whatever)
3 is Trefles (three petals, perhaps related to a stylzed acorn, but I don't know how)

The red suits are together at the top and the black at the bottom. Suit by suit, the equivalences work nicely.for the red suits:

Carreaux = Bastons
Coeurs = Coupes

And at least the French black suits (Piques, Trefles) correspond to suits 2 and 3 of the Italian (Epées, Deniers), although not in the same order.

Also, the alphabetical arrangement of Carreaux, Coeurs, Piques, and Trefles, corresponds exactly to Etteilla's ordering of the suits in his 1770 book. For the tarot he converted them back to tarot suits: Batons (cards 22-35), Coupes (cards 36-49), Epées (cards 50-63), and Deniers (cards 64-77), with the Atouts being first (cards 1-21) and the Fool as 78, but also, apart from the order, 0. No doubt there were other systems. But this one is a consistent development, allowing for the change in language, from "Mantegna" to Etteilla.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#162
mikeh wrote: Hucck wrote
The suits should be sorted hierarchically, cause some games use this function ...
for instance: Bridge ... it uses the ranking of the suits in its bidding system (and the bidding is very important). Highest is pique, then hearts, then diamonds and clubs finally.

Skat uses the ranking of the suits inside the bidding system and in the play (the ranking decides the highest, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Jack, which all are highest trumps in the game. Doppelkopf uses it only in the play. And there are likely a lot of other games (especially trick taking games), which use the ranking. We simplest way to organize the ranking is "by numbers" (we know this from Tarot, which uses numbers to set up its trump hierarchy).
As I've said, these are not 15th century games, even late 15th century.
... :-) ... neither we know much about rules in 15th century card games nor in "even late 15th century", so this doesn't count very much.

... :-) ... and, anyway, you're (probably) wrong.

We have rudimentary rules given with the Michelino deck. These seem to indicate, that the 16 trumps are presented by the 16 court cards below the kings, so that the structure of the deck is not 4x11+16, but 4x15 (with the lower court cards defined as trumps).
A similar "definition of trumps for lower court cards" seems more directly indicated in one of the two deks described by Master Ingold (1432).
A similar definition seems indicated in the usual early 4x13-deck (known since 1377), where Ober and Unter present the cards with military function, and the military function likely indicates trumping. This form isn't unknown in later German card games, from which one cannot really say, when they started, as Schafkopf and Scharwenzeln.

In 1715, Frauenzimmer-Lexicon ...
Image

Image

http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?dir=drucke/ae-12

In the time, when in France started the first card game books (with Piquet rules about 1630), Germany had the devastating 30-years war. The population decreased rapidly and the cultural production naturally suffered for all 17th century, so German card game books didn't take the same development as observable in England and France.

In the following strong French period of Louis XIV there was as French interest to transform German territory to French territory, but not a French interest to transform German card playing rules to French card playing rules. Indeed it seems to have been a vague French interest to prefer French playing cards against foreign Tarot cards, and a clear interest to get Huguenotte population out of the country. Such things seem to have changed a little bit around 1700, when France had the interest to get the Spanish kingdom in their hands by election.

************
The best argument I can see for a hierarchy among suits in the 15th century is the "Mantegna", with its ABCDE (http://www.trionfi.com/0/c/karn/wheel2.html)
A means Atutto (trumps)
B means Bastoni (batons)
C means Coppe (cups)
D means Denari (discs, coins)
E means Espadone (swords)
where in the later series E is changed to S for Spade.
... :-) ... whereby A = Atutto does no make much to understand the rank of men 1-10, B - Bastoni gives no hint, what it means in connection to Muses 11-20. etc.

But ...
B Bastoni = 2 = Pique/Spades
C Coppe = 1 = Coeur/Hearts
D Denari = 4 or 0 = Carreau/Diamonds
E Espadone = 3 = Trèfle/Clubs
...
gives the ranking of the suits, as it is used in the card game Bridge. How is this possible?

If you have 4 elements B, C, D, E you have 24 possibilities to rank them. The 24 possibilities are sorted in "6 wheels":

BCDE
CDEB
DEBC
EBCD

BCED
etc.

BDCE
etc.

BDEC
etc.

BECD
etc.

BEDC
etc.

B-C-D-E ... Bridge
C-D-E-B ...
D-E-B-C ...
E-B-C-D ...

... is the wheel, that is used for ranking the suits in West-European card games.

John McLeod at ...
http://www.i-p-c-s.org/faq/suit-ranking.php
... gives the following games, which use a suit ranking (just "from the top of (his) head") ...

hearts, diamonds, clubs, spades: Preference, 500, Tysiacha ... our wheel
clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds: Skat, Doppelkopf, Sheepshead ... our wheel
spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs: Contract Bridge ... our wheel

Our Wheel

Austrian Preference (Austria)
http://www.pagat.com/preference/austpref.html

Tysiacha (East European game, far distributed)
http://www.pagat.com/marriage/1000.html

500 (USA, national game in Australia)
http://www.pagat.com/euchre/500.html

Skat, Doppelkopf, Sheepshead (all in Germany)
Bridge (international distribution)

Foreign Wheel

Choi Dai Di, Da Lao Er and also Pusay Dos (developed in Coastal China in the 1980s), all presented as "Big Two"
http://www.pagat.com/climbing/bigtwo.html

99 (developed by David Parlett in 1968/75)
http://www.pagat.com/exact/99.html

All "Foreign Wheel" games (as noted by John McLeod) are not relevant for old playing card history.

I detected two real older game with "foreign wheel" character

Croatian Preference
http://www.pagat.com/preference/cropref.html
with row ...
clubs (= German Acorns) ... bid value 5
hearts (= German Hearts) ... bid value 4
diamonds (= German Bells)... bid value 3
spades (= German Green)... bid value 2

... and Donauschwaben Preferánsz (Hungary), using the same row as Croatia Preference
described at ...
http://rick-heli.info/gene/cards.html
This game is fixed on the use of the Wilhelm-Tell-deck, which likely was interpreted as a national protest against Austria dominance in 19th century. This deck presents as figures ...

Wilhelm Tell - the hero (Eichel Ober) .... = Clubs Queen (or Ober)
Hermann Geszler - the evil Imperial governor (Herz Ober) ... = Hearts Queen (or Ober)
... and others

So GOOD (Tell, the revolutionary hero) and BAD (Geszler, the Austrian governor) have clear positions.

In Austrian Preference "Hearts" was highest suit (= Gezler, that's "BAD" ).
In Donauschwaben Preferánsz (Hungary) "Clubs" was highest suit (= Tell, and that's "GOOD")

I captured this Forum description of Hungarian cards ...
by Judit Szepessy (judoka)
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/481513/ ... tell-cards
Those who know Snapszli might be familiar with the fact that the artwork on overknaves and underknaves cards feature characters from Friedrich Schiller’s play, "William Tell", based on the famous legend. The play was written in 1803-4: it was finished in February and had its first performance, in Weimar, in March, though the fifth Act was left out from the performance for political reasons. The play was published in book format in Stuttgart in 1804, and the play reache audiences in Vienna in 1810.

The history of William Tell in Hungary is quite short. In 1833, in Nagybanya, Hungarians saw the play for the first time. In other towns it was performed in 1848 and 1849; there was then a long period when it was not played at all, and only in 1940 did the National Theatre include the play in its programme again.

------

In the 19th century, playing card games became one of the most important pasttimes for the middle classes. This was marked by the growing number of card printers. However, we often know very little about the actual game play of these card games.

Schneider Jozsef is regarded the inventor of Hungarian Cards. He and Chalowsky Odon delighted gamers with cards that had mirror reflections on. As for the reason why he chose to put characters on the cards from a German playwright’s work, there are only hypotheses: the most popular theory claims that, by choosing characters from the William Tell legend, the designer and printers wanted to encourage the spirit of freedom that led to the 1848 Hungarian Uprising against the Austro-Hungarian Empire - however, this is only a theory!

....

In Budapest, manufacturers started to publish the cards in 1835. In the first two editions, the captions on the cards appear in German; the third edition, published in 1845, was the first to use the Hungarian language - in the 1840s, the right to use our native language in public places was an important part of Hungary's fight for independence.

Soon the William Tell cards became popular throughout the Austro-Hungarian empire. The name "Hungarian cards" became widespread at the beginning of the 20th century. In the house that now stands on the site of Schneider Jozsef's house in Budapest, there is an plaque that pays homage to one of the first makers of Hungarian cards. The day when that plaque was placed on the house was named the "Day of the Hungarian Cards"!
Image

http://trift.org/diary/doppeldeutsch-wi ... die-ungarn

Compare
Hungarian Revolution of 1848
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_ ... on_of_1848

Back to the cards problem: Preference had been a relative young card game (around 1800) and Donauschwaben Preferánsz (Hungary) was younger. For the moment I don't have satisfying information about the begin of the Austrian card game "Preference".

In summary we get, that from John McLeod's collection only ...

1. hearts, diamonds, clubs, spades: Preference, 500, Tysiacha ... our wheel
Austria and east of Austria.

2. clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds: Skat, Doppelkopf, Sheepshead ... our wheel
Germany, also with "Scharwenzel" (1715)

6. spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs: Contract Bridge ... our wheel
... and ABCDE Mantegna Tarocchi interpretation.

... are relevant in the given question, all others are too young or too foreign. All from the same "Wheel of Suits" and that hardly could be accidental.

...
Also, the alphabetical arrangement of Carreaux, Coeurs, Piques, and Trefles, corresponds exactly to Etteilla's ordering of the suits in his 1770 book. For the tarot he converted them back to tarot suits: Batons (cards 22-35), Coupes (cards 36-49), Epées (cards 50-63), and Deniers (cards 64-77), with the Atouts being first (cards 1-21) and the Fool as 78, but also, apart from the order, 0. No doubt there were other systems. But this one is a consistent development, allowing for the change in language, from "Mantegna" to Etteilla.
Thank for this, I didn' know it.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#163
Huck wrote, after my exposition of the ABCDE order of the "Mantegna":
.. :-) ... whereby A = Atutto does no make much to understand the rank of men 1-10, B - Bastoni gives no hint, what it means in connection to Muses 11-20. etc.

But ...
B Bastoni = 2 = Pique/Spades
C Coppe = 1 = Coeur/Hearts
D Denari = 4 or 0 = Carreau/Diamonds
E Espadone = 3 = Trèfle/Clubs
...
gives the ranking of the suits, as it is used in the card game Bridge. How is this possible?
As I said, it is just the alphabetical order of the "Mantegna" that is important, not the content of the imagery. Of course the Atouts have nothing (in particular) to do with the ranks of men. It is the correlation of the names of the suits and triumph sequence with the alphabetical sequence A, B, C, D, and E, which also exists in French (for Italian suits), that is important. Then in France the names changed, and likewise the alphabetical order of the suits. Whether that affected the ranking of suits in card games I don't know. There is no reason why it should have, one way or another. It only explains the order in French cartomancy, giving added support for its correlation of Italian and French suit names.

As to how it is possible that Contract Bridge has the order by which you correlate Italian with French suits, if you tell me the history of how suits got ranked that way in Contract Bridge, I will give my informed opinion. It might well be coincidence. After all, there were many orders of suits. Maybe you just picked the one, Contract Bridge, that gives the result you want. You have to show a historical connection. If you did that in your post, I missed it. I still maintain that Contract Bridge did not exist in the 15th century (or probably didn't, if you wish). Wikipedia proposes that it began in the 20th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_bridge#History). How the suit ranking was determined, I don't know. Maybe there is an account somewhere. It shouldn't be hard to trace the history of Bridge in relation to other games of the time, to see if it got its order of suits from something earlier or just made it up. I doubt if it was the "Mantegna" that they intended to be following, but I could be wrong. And once a predecessor was identified, it would be necessary to trace that one's order back, and so on, until a credible relationship to the "Mantegna" emerged or until one gets to a time when rules weren't written. It should be possible, if a relationship exists; it's not as though there were any problems from the Church about publishing the rules for card games, at least ones involving skill.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#164
Contact Bridge got his final rules in 20th century. But this says not so much. They surely took their rules not from the Mantegna Tarocchi, ... :-) ... especially not, if it was thought, that espadone = pique = spades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_bridge

Contact bridge got its influences of Whist and especially Russian Whist. And it got its name from "Biritch". Whist was a game revolution around 1740 in England and it caused a revolution of the card playing books. The card playing books caused a revolution of card playing, taking place in the second half of 18th century. The sudden success of Tarot and Tarock in German language countries goes back to the success of playing card books and the success of Whist.
Whist didn't use a bidding process as Bridge, also it didn't use a dummy player.

**********

Bridge ~ Biritch = Russian Whist = Vint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biritch
http://www.pagat.com/boston/biritch.html

According Pagat.com the special "Wheel" is used in the hierarchy hearts (1) - diamonds (4 or 0) - clubs (3) - batons.
The odd tricks count as follows:--

If "Biritch" (= without trumps) is declared each 10 points.
,, "Hearts" are made trumps .... ...........each 8 points
,, "Diamonds" are made trumps ...........each 6 points
,, "Clubs" are made trumps ................ each 4 points
,, "Spades" are madet trumps ..............each 2 points


That's the hierarchy of the Austrian game Preference, which according the description of Preference went to Ukraine and Russia.
Parts of the Ukraine were ruled by Austria since 1772, for instance Lemberg (= Lviv) as capital of the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria. The Austrian rule was finished in 1918.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv

Russian Whist = Vint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_whist
... gives not detailed rules.
Pagat.com doesn't know the expression "Vint" or "Russian bridge"

Vint / Biritch developed during 2nd half of 19th century. Biritch used a sort of bidding process, but this doesn't involve the hierarchy of suits (as far I understand the description). It had no dummy player as later contract bridge.

******
******

I wonder, which role the German "Skat" plays in the development of Bridge. It uses the hierarchy of suits twice.

Once in the bidding process:

Clubs count 12 (only in the bidding, and finally in counting the value of the game)
Spades count 11
Hearts count 10
Diamonds count 9
Grand (playing without trump suit) 20 or 24

Then you have see, which sort of Jacks you have (Jacks are very important in the game). They are ranked in the same manner:

Jack of clubs (highest trump)
Jack of spades (2nd highest trump)
Jack of hearts (3rd highest trump)
Jack of diamonds (4th highest trump)

You can have ...

"With one, played 2" ... means, that you have highest Jack, but not the 2nd highest Jack (Spades)
"Without one, played 2" ... means, that you haven't the highest Jack of clubs, but the 2nd highest Jack (Spades)
"With two, played 3" ... means, that you have the two highest Jacks
"Without two, played 3" ... means, that haven't the two highest Jacks, but the third Jack
"With three, played 4" ... means, that you have the 3 highest Jacks, but not the 4th Jack
"Without three, played 4 ... means, that you haven't the 3 highest Jacks, but the 4th Jack
"With four, played 5 ... means, that you have all 4 Jacks
"Without four, played 5 ... means, that you have no Jack at all

Depending on the state of your hand, you can take part in the bidding process. The game is played with 3 players, and the winner of the bidding has to play against the two others and to get at least 61 points (of 120). The game is played with a 32-cards-deck, 10 cards are dealt to each player and remaining two cards get in the "Stock". The winner can use the 2 cards in the Stock, and exchange them against according hisinterest. He can also decide to play without them (and not looking at them). This increases the game value for a further stage.

The lowest game is "Diamonds" (value 9) with "With one, played 2" or "Without, played 2". You can bid 2*9 = "18". If you intend to play without the "Stock", you can increase the game value to 3*9 = "27". If you think, that your opponents will stay below 30 points ("Schneider angesagt") you may increase the value to 4*9 = "36". If you even think, that your opponents will make no trick at all ("Schneider Schwarz angesagt"), then you may increase the bidding value to 5*9 = "45" ... but that's a rather impossible game, if you don't have the both highest trumps.

The highest game value might be Grand (24) "with 4, played 5" and announcement of "Schneider", "Schwarz" and "without stock", which increases the game value to 8*20 (or 24) = "160" (or 192).

Additional to this row of chosen games there are "Null" (23)", "null Hand" (35), "Null ouvert" (46), "Null ouvert Hand" (without stock; 69) and "Revolution" (just laying the cards on the table; 92) ... all games, in which the player promises to get no trick at all.

So, a bidding process may include ...

18, 20, 22, 23 or Null, 24, 27, 30, 33, 35, 36, 40, 44, 45, 46, 48, 50 etc ...

... which are the values of the multiplications of 9-10-11-12-20 and the values of the Null-series.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat_(card_game)
Skat was developed by the members of the Brommesche Tarok-Gesellschaft between 1810 and 1817 in Altenburg, in what is now the Federated State of Thuringia, Germany, based on the three-player game of Tarock, also known as Tarot, and the four-player game of Schafkopf (the American equivalent being Sheepshead)


Though "Skat", as described above, didn't exist then. There were many variants, and it took a long period t...

The Skat congress 1886 judged between "Alteburger Farbenreizen" and "Leipziger Zahlenreizen". "Leipziger Zahlenreizen" finally did win (41 years later, in 1927), but the beginnings of the Leipziger Zahlenreizen isn't known. Possibly it was already used for a few decades, maybe another 41 years.
I personally never became used for 24 points for Grand, we played always 20. This was decided 1932. Although I don't play Skat for decades now and would prefer Doppelkopf, I've a rather fixed opinion about this .... :-)

Alteburger Farbenreizen seems to have had this bidding row:
Frage in Schellen (Karo) .... Diamonds as trumps?
Frage in Rot (Herz) ... Hearts as trumps?
Frage in Grün (Pik) ... Spades as trumps?
Frage in Eichel (Kreuz) ... Clubs as trumps?
Tourné ... trump color chosen accidental (by the first card of the stock)?
Solo in Schellen (Karo) ... Diamonds "without taking the stock" (= Diamonds Hand)?
Solo in Rot (Herz) ... Hearts Hand?
Solo in Grün (Pik) ... Spades Hand?
Solo in Eichel (Kreuz) ... Clubs Hand?
Grand Solo ... Grand Hand?
Grand Ouvert ... open Grand?


So this was considerable simpler than the "Zahlenreizen".

*************

Biritsch reached England in the 1880s ... so the whole development is younger.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#165
Bridge loses its connection with a suit hierarchy fairly quickly, when you trace it backwards: no earlier than the late 19th century. (Or to put it another way, Bridge acquired its suit hierarchy fairly late, no earlier than the mid 19th century, somewhere in Eastern Europe.)

Skat seems to me more promising than Bridge or the others, as far as being related to older games (tarot, for sure, although no hierarchy there) and hence to the "Mantegna". It is also earlier. Its hierarchy goes, from low to high:

diamonds, hearts, spades, clubs.

This is actually the same as the "new alphabetical" list I gave for French suits:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles

Skat's hierarchy is still not very ancient. How can it be derived from the BCDE order of the "Mantegna".

The "Mantegna" sequence starts low--Misero--and ends high--Empyrean. (It is actually the reverse of Bridge, on your set of equivalences.) My hypothesis is that Skat's hierarchy could develop easily from the "Mantegna", by the following schema, derived from the Mantegna's BCDE, low to high:

batons/bastoni = carreaux, coupes/coppe = coeurs, deniers/denari = trefles, and epees/espedone = piques

which then form the alphabetical hierarchy, in French:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles.

And from France the hierarchy goes to Skat in that form.

Etteilla translates this same hierarchy into tarot suits, using the old equivalences (but for him, high to low, as he doesn't know the "Mantegna" and he's being inventive):
batons, coupes, epees, deniers.

On your hypothesis, with deniers/denari = carreaux, in order to get from the "Mantegna" to Skat what is required is one turn of your wheel and then its reversal, The substitution by itself gives (leaving epees and batons as "black" to avoid that variable):

black, coupes, carreaux, black

But in Skat carreaux is first, i.e. lowest, followed by coupes. So one turn of the wheel, advancing "carreaux" to the right end, and then a reversal, is needed to get to Skat.

It is possible, but is it reasonable? When, and with what precedents? My alphabetical hypothesis has the precedent of the "Mantegna". It occurs at some point after French suits acquire French names. It reverses with Etteilla, who doesn't know these things. When did your "wheel" start turning? What precedent, early example, or other historically appropriate justification is there for this turn and reversal that resulted in Skat's hierarchy?

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#166
mikeh wrote:Bridge loses its connection with a suit hierarchy fairly quickly, when you trace it backwards: no earlier than the late 19th century. (Or to put it another way, Bridge acquired its suit hierarchy fairly late, no earlier than the mid 19th century, somewhere in Eastern Europe.)
Bridge got it from Biritch and Biritch from Preferance, invented in Austria and played in Ukraine/Russia. Russia was ruled in 19th century by an aristocracy, which was more or less German finally.
Skat seems to me more promising than Bridge or the others, as far as being related to older games (tarot, for sure, although no hierarchy there) and hence to the "Mantegna". It is also earlier. Its hierarchy goes, from low to high:

diamonds, hearts, spades, clubs.
Bridge has the Mantegna hierarchy. Skat has the hierarchy "black at top, red below" in the same "wheel", that Mantegna Tarocchi and Preference used.

Skat followed Schafkopf, which one of the members of the Bromme'sche Tarokgesellschaft in Altenburg detected in a village of the close Erzgebirge, which parts old Bohemia and old Germany since very old times. Schafkopf leads somehow to "Scharwenzel", played without known written game description during 17th century. Known in Netherlands, Danmark and the German region above the Erzgebirge. The trump structure of has similarity to the trump structure in Schafkopf.

***************

In Schafkopf (32 cards, 14 trumps) appear as ranked trumps ...

1 Kreuz Dame
2 Pik Dame
3 Herz Dame
4 Karo Dame

------------
5 Kreuz Bube
6 Pik Bube
7 Herz Bube
8 Karo Bube

-------------
9 Ace of Hearts
10 Hearts 10
11 King of Hearts
12 Hearts 9
13 Hearts 8
14 Hearts 7

***************

In Scharwenzel (36 cards, 14 or 15 trumps) appear as ranked trumps ...

1 Kreuz Dame called "Olsch"
2 trump 7 called "Nilsche"
3 Pik Dame called "Basta"
...
-------------
4 Kreuz Bube
5 Pik Bube
6 Herz Bube
7 Karo Bube

-------------
8 trump As
9 trump König
[10 trump Queen, only if Karo of Herz is trump suit]
11 trump 10
12 trump 9
13 trump 8
[..... trump 7 is high]
14 trump 6

The rather logical Schafkopf sequence looks reduced (Herz Dame and Karo Dame are lost in the higher ranks), and is extended by elements taken from Hombre or Ombre. The element of 3 highest trumps (called Matadors) seems to have been taken from the older Tarot (21- 1 - 0).

***********

Doppelkopf (40 or 48 cards, either 24 or 26 trumps), which is considered to have developed begin 19th century from Scharwenzel used ...

1 Herz 10 (twice)
----
Kreuz Dame (twice), called "Alte", same as "Olsche"
Pik Dame (twice), called "Blaue" or "Schwarze Sau"
Herz Dame (twice)
Karo Dame (twice)

----
Kreuz Bube (twice), called "Karlchen" or other names
Pik Bube (twice)
Herz Bube (twice)
Karo Babe(twice)

----
Karo Ace called "Fuchs" (twice)
Karo 10 (twice)
Karo König (twice)
[Karo 9 [twice] ... only if it is played with 48 cards instead of 40.

Doppelkopf returned to the likely older Schafkopf structure, but modified some Scharwenzel/Ombre elements]

*************

Skat (32 cards) reduced Schafkopf, Queens are not trumps.

1 Kreuz Bube
2 Pik Bube
3 Herz Bube
4 Karo Bube

------
[only if a suit is selected]
5 Ace of trumps
6 trump 10
7 King of trumps
8 Queen of trumps
9 trump 9
10 trump 8
11 trump 7

***********

Hombre (40 cards)

Description of Wiki
Rank of cards[edit]
The rank of the cards in the game depends on whether it is black or red suit. The basic ranking of numerals is reversed in red, being 7 low, and a red suit is always one card longer than a black one of the same status, whether trump or plain.

The black Aces are permanent trumps, and the top three trumps are called matadors:

A ♠ (Spadille)
Black 2 or Red 7 (Manille)
A ♣ (Basto)
The fourth highest trump is the A ♥, or A ♦, called "Punto", but it does not have the status of a matador.

If the trump suit is black: Spadille, 2, Basto, K Q J 7 6 5 4 3
If the trump suit is red: Spadille, 7, Basto, Punto, K Q J 2 3 4 5 6
In a plain black suit: K Q J 7 6 5 4 3 2
In a plain red suit: K Q J A 2 3 4 5 6 7
There's a definition of 3 highest trumps (somehow taken from Tarot)
The name "Spadille" for Ace of pique indicate, that this developed from the Spanish sword card
The name "Basto" for Ace of trèfle indicates, that this developed from the Spanish bastone card

There's a definition, that black cards are higher ranked than red cards (which repeats in the ranking of Schafkopf and Scharwenzel).

Spadille as highest cards indicates, that Swords were high in Spain ... trump 21 in Tarot
Manille uses a very low (trump) card ... should be trump 1 in Tarot (or Fool ?)
If Manille was trump 1, the batons Ace (Basto) should be the Fool.

************

L'Hombre became for some time the most popular game, which possibly modified existing earlier game solutions.

From the political situation we see, that Spanish Habsburg did win the fight of European dominance in 1559 against France. France opened itself a little later for Latin suits since 1574 with King Henry III. France took the Italian Tarot fashion for some time. With Louis XIV and the results of a German destruction in the 30-years war Louis promoted French suits.

One should study these contexts a little bit.

*******

There's a habit of placing the name of the card producer at the Jack of Trèfle and the Jack of Pique in the Dauphine/Piedmont pattern, around 1590.
In Tarot usually the 2 of coins is used (it has enough place). By this fashion also Rolichon is involved, who possibly has some importance for the Tarot de Marseille development.

In the later Skat development we have, that these both Jacks are highest trumps. In the general Karnöffel development we have, that the "lower beat the higher", and the Karnöffel is a Jack. This habit is strong in protestant Germany of 15th century, and it somehow "returned later with Skat".

The protestant perspective was reduced by the "Gegenreformation", installed in context of the Spanish Habsburger.
Spadille and Basto in Ombre are Aces, not Jacks.

A lot of interesting questions.


This is actually the same as the "new alphabetical" list I gave for French suits:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles

Skat's hierarchy is still not very ancient. How can it be derived from the BCDE order of the "Mantegna".

The "Mantegna" sequence starts low--Misero--and ends high--Empyrean. (It is actually the reverse of Bridge, on your set of equivalences.) My hypothesis is that Skat's hierarchy could develop easily from the "Mantegna", by the following schema, derived from the Mantegna's BCDE, low to high:

batons/bastoni = carreaux, coupes/coppe = coeurs, deniers/denari = trefles, and epees/espedone = piques
The ABCDE structure in Mantegna Tarocchi might have used just by normal choice, just as one would use 1-2-3-4-5. The Italian name giving for suits might have been another persons idea, possibly much earlier. The modifation to the "S-series" might have done by a person, who knew the tradition ... but it didn't make direct sense to relate the common suits to the Mantegna Tarocchi.
which then form the alphabetical hierarchy, in French:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles.
... which looks rather as a accidental result.

And from France the hierarchy goes to Skat in that form.

Etteilla translates this same hierarchy into tarot suits, using the old equivalences (but for him, high to low, as he doesn't know the "Mantegna" and he's being inventive):
batons, coupes, epees, deniers.
Well, not a order from the "right wheel" (I first understood, that it had such an order).
On your hypothesis, with deniers/denari = carreaux, in order to get from the "Mantegna" to Skat what is required is one turn of your wheel and then its reversal, The substitution by itself gives (leaving epees and batons as "black" to avoid that variable):

black, coupes, carreaux, black

But in Skat carreaux is first, i.e. lowest, followed by coupes. So one turn of the wheel, advancing "carreaux" to the right end, and then a reversal, is needed to get to Skat.

It is possible, but is it reasonable? When, and with what precedents? My alphabetical hypothesis has the precedent of the "Mantegna". It occurs at some point after French suits acquire French names. It reverses with Etteilla, who doesn't know these things. When did your "wheel" start turning? What precedent, early example, or other historically appropriate justification is there for this turn and reversal that resulted in Skat's hierarchy?
As shown, the Ombre-Schafkopf-Skat line agrees, that "black" is high and "red" is low. But somehow there's a deep contrast between Ombre and Schafkop, not completely understood in the moment.

The Austrian Preference line had "red" high and black "low", not agreed in revolutionary Hungary likely for political reasons.

Generally it's stated, that L'Hombre invented the bidding system. I wonder, if that is really true or if such a statement can be possible in our limited state of knowledge.
Atually we have a long time with none or only very few game descriptions. Complex game developments might have died and disappeared without any researcher chance to know about them.

The Schafkopf structure is very simple and easy. It should have existed at the beginning. But it was attacked by "modern trends" (Tarot, Hombre) and so might have been overshadowed by other games, surviving only in lonesome village customs. The Bromme'sche Tarot Gesellschaft (which likely knew a lot of games) was surprized by a card game living in an Erzgebirge village.

If Bohemia was the origin of a lot of early playing customs, the position of an Erzgebirge village close to Bohemia was ideal that old playing customs might have survived there.

The chess village Ströbeck cared for the survival of rules of the Courier chess game, once presented as having a rather far distribution ... Ströbeck's chess riddle possibly explains by the condition, that the near Quedlinburg had been capital for all Germany in the time of the 3 Otto-kings, and Theophanu, Byzantine princess, married Otto II and educated Otto III, her son. And the Byzantine influence of Theophanu possibly caused, that Persian Chess arrived in Northern Europe, first noted in Einsiedeln in the year 997.

The brothers Grimm collected their fairy tale stories in villages near Kassel/Marburg and their results are now world literature, and delivered plots for various movies. Villages often have had the better memories.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#168
I’ll also paste my response to the Fool card thread, but want to reply here as well…
mikeh wrote:But it seems to me, Phaeded, that if the artist had wanted to suggest that it was a trumpet, he would have given more pictorial clues, because given his disheveled appearance, he is more in need of a club, to fend off attackers, than a trumpet.
No one is attacking the PMB fool, who is standing quite at ease – I’m not sure how you got “victim” out of “disheveled” - the latter merely implies his station in life: poor peasant. The attempt to stick with the historical misidentification of the object as a “long pole” has allowed you to imagine an attacked fool, but this fool is no longer simply the God-denying fool, as the bearer of a trumpet he is the embodiment of insurrection (in a very real class sense – keep in mind the Ciompi uprising had already happened as well)…not incompatible with the meaning of the later card of the Hanged Man. Not only did the trumpet blasts accompany the Ambrosian Republic auctions, which entailed the selling off of Visconti’s personal possessions, but they also accompanied the constant calling out of new gride, proclamations to regulate the distributions of bread during the starvation crisis caused by Sforza’s blockade (when Sforza entered the city his men were instructed to hand out loaves of bread). Filelfo was in Milan during this hell and again, I posit him as behind the PMB’s peculiarities. Compare the bodies of Giotto’s Foolishness with the PMB Fool again - the former looks almost pregnant with swollen legs; the PMB Fool is gaunt by contrast...because he represents a starving populace, ripe for insurrection.
This theme is addressed constantly in Filelfo’s work – see Ode 4.3 in particular where a characterization he calls “Lydus”:
From him who created the universe and brought forth the heavens and all the celestial bodies in the sky [note the 7 feathers on the PMB fool – uncomprehending and thus blown about by the planetary forces], nothing can be hidden. He sees the extent of the desire that holds you, when madness overturns a heart that is sick. Nor does he allow you to know the path to salvation. Thus he pours unremitting darkness over your eyes [clearly Filelfo has appropriated the “God-denying Fool” theme, but for the context of Milan in 1449] (Ode IV.3: 31-38; Tr. Robins, p. 235)
….”For whoever joins you in your evil habits and vile life you will praise. Nor does any talk flow from your lips which is guided by modesty or wisdom. You speak obscenities: you play the Timarchus, you as a boy and degenerate adult surpassed all others ion the corrupt nature of your decadent pastimes. (IV.3: 65-71, p. 237)
The Fool, just as in Giotto, is the polar opposite of Prudence, elevated to the highest card in the tarot. In one sense Prudence is precisely an understanding of the “celestial bodies in the sky” in terms of being an embodiment of Wisdom in understanding time, represented in her three-faced configurations or via the symbol of the book. The middle face with its forked beard from this Florentine plaque of Prudence, perhaps one that Filelfo was familiar with via other productions from the copy book from which it came, when he taught in that city, closely resembles the PMB Fools’ face; without the other two faces looking into the past or future one is simply a lustful animal engaged in the present:
prudenza(220X318).gif
Prudenza, Florentine, ca. 1460?
prudenza(220X318).gif (32.2 KiB) Viewed 7003 times
PMB Fool  - head detail.jpg
PMB Fool head
PMB Fool - head detail.jpg (17.54 KiB) Viewed 7002 times
corn head.png
Visconti Sanitatis "harvest" - contrast wheat ears of plenty with feathers on PMB fool
corn head.png (16.53 KiB) Viewed 7002 times
mikeh wrote:Attackers are also suggested in the "Charles VI" Fool, with the boys throwing stones.
The CVI fool is smiling and playing with his string of bells(?), oblivious to any “attacking”. In fact one can make the argument consistent with my interpretation that the specific Foolishness being depicted in this card is that of a erotically-charged mob, literally in the postures of anarchic throws, attacking their own leader. The Fool incites. The erotically-charged mob aspect of this card is more explicit the Este Fool, where the exposed pubic hair of the CVI is drawing in the attention of his followers. Even the PMB Fool indicates his pubic hair with his left hand – all three Fools drawing the viewer’s attention to the non-virtuous, libidinal stance in public. “Public morality” is at stake here through the agency of the Fool – not the safety of the Fool. The advice for princes here is clear – beware the mob.
Image

Phaeded

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#169
Huck wrote,
The name "Spadille" for Ace of pique indicate, that this developed from the Spanish sword card
The name "Basto" for Ace of trèfle indicates, that this developed from the Spanish bastone card
We are making progress. Ombre is from the end of the 16th century, a much better specimen than Skat. It is from Spain. So in Spain by the end of the 16th century, the French suit of trefles is called something like "basto" and the piques something like "spadille". No doubt the English terms "club" and "spade" derive from Spanish games with French suits. It would be logical that the English terms "diamond" and "hearts" came from the Spanish usage as well, as opposed to the French. "Hearts" could have come from France or Germany as well as from Spain, and is not at issue, So the question is whether the French suit of carreaux. which is not a word for the gem, was called something that meant the gem in Spanish. Looking in the online Spanish-English dictionaries, I see that the Spanish word for the suit of diamonds is "diamante", which is also the word for the gem. This is different from the French term, "carreaux". It is also different from the Italian "quadri" and the German "karo", both of which mean a four-sided shape, and not the gem. In French, the main word for this shape is "lozenge", although I expect "diamante" would work, too, since diamonds typically have four-sided faces..

In Andrea's essay "Symbolic Suits" I see that he cites a text in Latin that gives the Latn names for the suits. There, in a work written for Philip II of Spain and published in 1555, we read (http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=180, http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 80&lng=ENG):
chartae enim Hispanae, quemadmodum et Gallicae in quatuor sunt genera, seu familial divisae. llispanae habent aureos nummos, carchesia, baculos, enses. Gallicae corda, rhombulos, trifolia, vormerculos, seu palas, seu ascicula.

(Cards, both the Spanish and the French, are divided into four suits, or families. The Spanish have aureo nummos [gold coins, Andrea tells me in correspondence], carchesia [cups, Andrea says], baculos [sceptres, Andrea says], enses [swords, Andrea says]. The French, hearts, rhombulos [tiles, Andrea says], trifolia [trefoils], vormerculos [little ploughshares, Andrea says], otherwise called palas [spades, Andrea says] or ascicla [arrow-points, Andrea says].)
In the Italian version of the essay, Andrea does not translate the Latin into Italian. What I put in English is based on email correspondence with him. We do not need to be concerned with the Latin terms for Spanish suits. For the French suits, Andrea's suggested translations are consistent with a French translation of the Latin text, at http://books.google.com/books?id=f9s7AA ... in&f=false: it has "Les Francoises ont des coeurs, des quarreaux, des trefles, & des pales (ou piques)."

For exactitude, we should probably look further. In A New Dictionary of Heraldry, Explaining All the Terms Us'd in that Science ... by James Coats, p. 273, "rhombulos" is explained as "lozange-wise", i.e. the shape of a lozenge (http://books.google.com/books?id=LpdcAA ... in&f=false). The same is in the Encyclopedia of Heraldry (http://books.google.com/books?id=w_5BAA ... 20&f=false). I assume that by "lozenge" they mean the French sense, i.e. the shape of a rhombus.

The Spanish translation of "rhombus" is "rombo". That word "rombo" has a double meaning, it also means the gem also called "diamante" (http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/tran ... spen=rombo, http://www.wordreference.com/es/transla ... rd=diamond). So it would be easy to identify the suit called in Latin "rhombulos" as that of "diamante". If in Italian "rombo" had been a term for the suit, there would have been the same confusion there. But in Italian the word for the French suit was "quadri" (similar to the German "karos"). In Spanish, however, "cuadri" did not mean the suit of cards. It was a different word, "diamante", for which a synonym was "rombo", from the Latin.

The Spanish term "diamante", I hypothesize, then goes into English as "diamond" . That English word, of course, already existed as the name of a gem. The first recorded use in English of "diamond" as the shape is 1496, but only as one side of a solid octohedral diamond or rhombohedron, according to the Oxford English Dictionary:
5a. A diamond-shaped figure, i.e. a plane figure of the form of a section of an octahedral diamond; a rhomb (or a square) placed with its diagonals vertical and horizontal; a lozenge. (In early use, a solid body of octahedral or rhombohedral form.
1496 in T. Dickson Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1877) I. 293 Item for a waw of irne, to be dyamondis for guncast, xxv. s.
1496 in T. Dickson Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1877) I. 310 Item, giffin to Johne Smyth, for hedis to xij speris, and dyamandis to xxiiij justing speris xvj s.
The first recorded use in English of "diamond" as a playing card suit or suit-object is 1594, almost contemporaneous with Florio's 1598 use of the term in the definition of "quadri" in his Italian-English dictionary. Here is the OED definition and first two uses:
5b. spec. A figure of this form printed upon a playing-card; a card of the suit marked with such figures.
1594 J. Lyly Mother Bombie iii. iv. sig. F, My bed-felow..dreamt that night that the king of diamonds was sicke.
1598 J. Florio Worlde of Wordes, Quadri, squares, those that we call diamonds or picts upon playing cards
The word "pict" is interesting. There is no definition in the OED that fits. Also, that occurrence of "King of Diamonds". In the play, it occurs in the middle of a discussion of whether dreams foretell the future (http://books.google.com/books?id=417V7n ... ds&f=false).
.
Here is an example of Italian terms for French suits, in the same essay of Andrea's, from Aretino's Carte Parlanti of 1543.
PAD: Da che in Italia si giuoca con le Carte francesi, chiaritemi (io ve ne supplico) ciò che dinotano, tra sì fatte nazioni i Cappari. (I capperi. La loro somiglianza con le picche ha fatto sì che quel seme sia conosciuto con tale termine, n.d.r)
CAR: La loro insalata aguzza lo appetito ai bettolanti.
PAD: E i Quadri?
CAR: La fermezza di chi carteggia.
PAD: E i Cori?
CAR: La volontà di pigliarsi in mano.
PAD: E i Fiori?
CAR: Il piacere del dir buono.

PAD: Since in Italy people are playing with French cards, please tell me what the Cappari are.
CAR: In salads they sharpen the appetites of those who love taverns. (In Italy, the word for Piques was similar to the word for capers. n.d.r.)
PAD: What about the Quadri?
CAR: The hardness of one who plays.
PAD: And the Cori?
CAR: The will to fight for the hand. (in mano: in Italian, ambiguous between one's own hand and the hand of another).
PAD: And the Fiori (meaning "flowers", but suggesting "fioretto," a group that socializes together)?
CAR: The pleasure of good talk.
I do not know why Piques were called "Cappari". It is a word that does not exist in modern Italian. Giovanni Casalegno and Gabriella Giaccone, editors of the 1992 Italian edition of Carte Parlanti say (footnote 222), "Dal contesto si tratterebbe delle picche", i.e. "From the context it would be Picche [Spades]". The OED says that in Florio's 1598 dictionary "cappari" is defined as ".those markes vpon the playing cards called spades"; but the online copy of Florio (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio1598/082.html) has no such definition. The modern term, of course, is "picche".

What is of interest in this passage is the metaphor that Aretino uses to describe the suit of Quadri, a reference to hardness. Hardness is something that famously applies to diamonds but could also apply to tiles. If it were only diamonds, I would think he would say something disparaging about jewelry. As it is, he seems aware that in some places it is the suit of "rombi" (Spain and places under Spanish influence), meaning diamonds as well as parallelograms, and in other places (France) it is the suit of "carreaux", meaning tiles. Since Spain was in control of most of Italy at that time, it was prudent of him to pick a quality that applied to both.

When it came to German suits, Aretino had no hesitation in applying the metaphor of wealth to the suit-name of Bells:
CAR: Nelle carte loro (dei Tedeschi, n.d.r), oltra i fiori e i cuori alla Francese, hanno i sonagli e le ghiande.
PAD: Perché quegli, e perché queste?
CAR: Le ghiande significano la poca cosa, che basta a sustentare le fami della natura, la quale in principio nutrì la generazione umana di cotal cibo.
PAD: Ed i sonagli?
CAR: Essi, che si mettono alle gambe dei matti, e dinotano la stoltizia di coloro che si affaticano in accumulare le ricchezze guardate dai cuori di quegli, che non sanno, che elle sono come fiori caduche.

(CAR: In their cards, besides Clubs and Hearts, they have Bells and Acorns.
PAD: Why these and those?
CAR: Acorns mean small things, good enough to sustain nature’s hunger, nature that in the beginning was able to feed humanity with such food.
PAD: What about Bells?
CAR: Bells are used on fools' legs, and show the foolishness of those who toil to accumulate wealth, guarded over [or seen] by those who don’t know that wealth is a short-lived flower.
So it would seem that indeed bells = denari. The shapes would certainly suggest that, both round. Diamonds, however, are not.

I hypothesize that when Aretino was writing, the Spanish thought of the rhombus shape on the suit of carreaux as diamonds. And that is where we, following the Spanish--the most powerful European nation in the 16th century--get the idea that the suit of Diamonds is related to that of Coins, which has been taken over in card games with French suits ever since. I certainly do not deny that in card games with French suits, the carreaux and coeurs act like the denari and coppe in Italian suits.

That does not mean, however, that the French who designed and initially used French suits thought of the suit in the same way. "Carreaux" in French cannot mean the gem. It means a tile or a window-pane, or the square in a pattern, as in clothes, or a lens, or--interestingly from our perspective--the bolt of a crossbow, whatever that is (http://www.wordreference.com/fren/carreau). All of these meanings point to the suit of carreaux as being related to bastoni, either as something on a crossbow or as the pattern made at the intersection of bastoni in Italian suit cards.

In any case, it is perfectly natural that French cartomancy would have made, from whenever it started, the equivalence, carreaux = bastoni and trefles = denari. That equivalence also explains the cartomantic order of suits originating with Etteilla, as I have shown.

I need to check out my hypothesis about the Spanish origin of the term "diamond" applied to French suits with reference to books on the history of Spanish cards. So I will try to get The Playing Cards of Spain, by Trevor Denning (http://books.google.com/books?id=UqrvDW ... =false)via Interlibrary Loan.

Note added Aug. 27: Denning simply confirms that the relationship between French and Spanish cards is not settled. He says (p. 34):
The early relationship between what we call 'French-suited' and 'Spanish-suited' cards (that is, those with stenciled hearts, clubs, spades and diamonds those with cups, coins, swords and clubs) remains a hazy area deserving further study. Although we regard them as belonging to separate traditions, they may well have sprung from a common source (15).
____________
15. Trevor Denning, "Cards by Jehan Fancil', The Playing card XXIII (1995) pp. 88-91.
And as for the relationship between the English words and the other words for French suits, all he says is (p. 7):
In the Frenc, German and Spanish languages the resulting shapes are interpreted as heart, clover leaf, pike-head and square (or tile). Their odd English names, none conforming to the others except for the heart, seem to owe more to a folk-memory of Mediterranean suits than to the shapes they actually represent.
He makes no effort to correlate particular French suits with particular Spanish, German or Italian suits.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#170
Phaeded wrote,
No one is attacking the PMB fool, who is standing quite at ease – I’m not sure how you got “victim” out of “disheveled” - the latter merely implies his station in life: poor peasant.
I didn't say he was being attacked. He just needs it in case he is attacked. Clubs are the poor person's only allowed weapon, and it would be dangerous to go about without a large one, if only to fend off dogs. See for example Bosch's wayfarers. And while the glob at the end is useful, it is not necessary, e.g. a Bosch imitator at https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6111/6213 ... 8976_z.jpg.

Phaeded wrote, of this same PMB Fool:
this fool is no longer simply the God-denying fool, as the bearer of a trumpet he is the embodiment of insurrection (in a very real class sense –
He doesn't look very insurrectionary. But I suppose he has nothing to do between auctions except strike a pathetic pose.

If the Giotto Fool isn't carrying a trumpet, neither is the PMB Fool. Because of the seven feathers, they are too similar, despite the lack of pregnancy. (Or are you saying the Giotto Fool has a trumpet, too?) Maybe his pregnancy is rather less advanced than the Giotto Fool's. Or else it has been a long time since Fat Tuesday.

Phaeded wrote
The CVI fool is smiling and playing with his string of bells(?), oblivious to any “attacking”. In fact one can make the argument consistent with my interpretation that the specific Foolishness being depicted in this card is that of a erotically-charged mob, literally in the postures of anarchic throws, attacking their own leader. The Fool incites.
The "Charles VI" Fool doesn't look very inciting. He at least has his pants on. He's relaxed because the attackers are so small he foolishly doesn't think they can hurt him. But Goliath was felled by a boy. And we know what happened to Cronos (or was it Uranos; these were often mixed up). Mobs did attack mentally ill persons, at least in the literature of the period. In doing so, they didn't think they were attacking their own leaders. That happened, too, but it's something different. Would the Medici sponsors of the deck then be implying that they, the leaders, were Fools engaged in immoral activity?. I don't think the cards were sponsored by Savonarola-supporters, even surreptitiously..Or do you have a theory that the Medici were too stupid, or arrogant, to have noticed subversive activity on the part of their card makers?

Added later: I presume you know the book Forbidden Friendships, which documents how male homoeroticism was practiced more under Lorenzo Il Magnifico than at any time before or since (probably including now, because men who would normally have been heterosexual were kept away from women they would have had love relationships with and discouraged from marrying until around age 30); for attitudes during Cosimo's time, read the introduction, available online, to the recent translation of Hermaphroditus, which was dedicated to Cosimo and preserved in his library.

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