mikeh wrote:Bridge loses its connection with a suit hierarchy fairly quickly, when you trace it backwards: no earlier than the late 19th century. (Or to put it another way, Bridge acquired its suit hierarchy fairly late, no earlier than the mid 19th century, somewhere in Eastern Europe.)
Bridge got it from Biritch and Biritch from Preferance, invented in Austria and played in Ukraine/Russia. Russia was ruled in 19th century by an aristocracy, which was more or less German finally.
Skat seems to me more promising than Bridge or the others, as far as being related to older games (tarot, for sure, although no hierarchy there) and hence to the "Mantegna". It is also earlier. Its hierarchy goes, from low to high:
diamonds, hearts, spades, clubs.
Bridge has the Mantegna hierarchy. Skat has the hierarchy "black at top, red below" in the same "wheel", that Mantegna Tarocchi and Preference used.
Skat followed Schafkopf, which one of the members of the Bromme'sche Tarokgesellschaft in Altenburg detected in a village of the close Erzgebirge, which parts old Bohemia and old Germany since very old times. Schafkopf leads somehow to "Scharwenzel", played without known written game description during 17th century. Known in Netherlands, Danmark and the German region above the Erzgebirge. The trump structure of has similarity to the trump structure in Schafkopf.
In Schafkopf (32 cards, 14 trumps)
appear as ranked trumps ...
1 Kreuz Dame
2 Pik Dame
3 Herz Dame
4 Karo Dame
5 Kreuz Bube
6 Pik Bube
7 Herz Bube
8 Karo Bube
9 Ace of Hearts
10 Hearts 10
11 King of Hearts
12 Hearts 9
13 Hearts 8
14 Hearts 7
In Scharwenzel (36 cards, 14 or 15 trumps)
appear as ranked trumps ...
1 Kreuz Dame
2 trump 7 called "Nilsche"
3 Pik Dame
4 Kreuz Bube
5 Pik Bube
6 Herz Bube
7 Karo Bube
8 trump As
9 trump König
[10 trump Queen, only if Karo of Herz is trump suit]
11 trump 10
12 trump 9
13 trump 8
[..... trump 7 is high]
14 trump 6
The rather logical Schafkopf sequence looks reduced (Herz Dame and Karo Dame are lost in the higher ranks), and is extended by elements taken from Hombre or Ombre. The element of 3 highest trumps (called Matadors) seems to have been taken from the older Tarot (21- 1 - 0).
Doppelkopf (40 or 48 cards, either 24 or 26 trumps), which is considered to have developed begin 19th century from Scharwenzel used ...
1 Herz 10 (twice)
Kreuz Dame (twice)
, called "Alte", same as "Olsche"
Pik Dame (twice)
, called "Blaue" or "Schwarze Sau"
Herz Dame (twice)
Karo Dame (twice)
Kreuz Bube (twice)
, called "Karlchen" or other names
Pik Bube (twice)
Herz Bube (twice)
Karo Ace called "Fuchs" (twice)
Karo 10 (twice)
Karo König (twice)
[Karo 9 [twice] ... only if it is played with 48 cards instead of 40.
Doppelkopf returned to the likely older Schafkopf structure, but modified some Scharwenzel/Ombre elements]
Skat (32 cards)
reduced Schafkopf, Queens are not trumps.
1 Kreuz Bube
2 Pik Bube
3 Herz Bube
4 Karo Bube
[only if a suit is selected]
5 Ace of trumps
6 trump 10
7 King of trumps
8 Queen of trumps
9 trump 9
10 trump 8
11 trump 7
Hombre (40 cards)
Description of Wiki
Rank of cards
The rank of the cards in the game depends on whether it is black or red suit. The basic ranking of numerals is reversed in red, being 7 low, and a red suit is always one card longer than a black one of the same status, whether trump or plain.
The black Aces are permanent trumps, and the top three trumps are called matadors:
A ♠ (Spadille)
Black 2 or Red 7 (Manille)
A ♣ (Basto)
The fourth highest trump is the A ♥, or A ♦, called "Punto", but it does not have the status of a matador.
If the trump suit is black: Spadille, 2, Basto, K Q J 7 6 5 4 3
If the trump suit is red: Spadille, 7, Basto, Punto, K Q J 2 3 4 5 6
In a plain black suit: K Q J 7 6 5 4 3 2
In a plain red suit: K Q J A 2 3 4 5 6 7
There's a definition of 3 highest trumps (somehow taken from Tarot)
The name "Spadille" for Ace of pique indicate, that this developed from the Spanish sword card
The name "Basto" for Ace of trèfle indicates, that this developed from the Spanish bastone card
There's a definition, that black cards are higher ranked than red cards (which repeats in the ranking of Schafkopf and Scharwenzel).
Spadille as highest cards indicates, that Swords were high in Spain ... trump 21 in Tarot
Manille uses a very low (trump) card ... should be trump 1 in Tarot (or Fool ?)
If Manille was trump 1, the batons Ace (Basto) should be the Fool.
L'Hombre became for some time the most popular game, which possibly modified existing earlier game solutions.
From the political situation we see, that Spanish Habsburg did win the fight of European dominance in 1559 against France. France opened itself a little later for Latin suits since 1574 with King Henry III. France took the Italian Tarot fashion for some time. With Louis XIV and the results of a German destruction in the 30-years war Louis promoted French suits.
One should study these contexts a little bit.
There's a habit of placing the name of the card producer at the Jack of Trèfle and the Jack of Pique in the Dauphine/Piedmont pattern, around 1590.
In Tarot usually the 2 of coins is used (it has enough place). By this fashion also Rolichon is involved, who possibly has some importance for the Tarot de Marseille development.
In the later Skat development we have, that these both Jacks are highest trumps. In the general Karnöffel development we have, that the "lower beat the higher", and the Karnöffel is a Jack. This habit is strong in protestant Germany of 15th century, and it somehow "returned later with Skat".
The protestant perspective was reduced by the "Gegenreformation", installed in context of the Spanish Habsburger.
Spadille and Basto in Ombre are Aces, not Jacks.
A lot of interesting questions.
This is actually the same as the "new alphabetical" list I gave for French suits:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles
Skat's hierarchy is still not very ancient. How can it be derived from the BCDE order of the "Mantegna".
The "Mantegna" sequence starts low--Misero--and ends high--Empyrean. (It is actually the reverse of Bridge, on your set of equivalences.) My hypothesis is that Skat's hierarchy could develop easily from the "Mantegna", by the following schema, derived from the Mantegna's BCDE, low to high:
batons/bastoni = carreaux, coupes/coppe = coeurs, deniers/denari = trefles, and epees/espedone = piques
The ABCDE structure in Mantegna Tarocchi might have used just by normal choice, just as one would use 1-2-3-4-5. The Italian name giving for suits might have been another persons idea, possibly much earlier. The modifation to the "S-series" might have done by a person, who knew the tradition ... but it didn't make direct sense to relate the common suits to the Mantegna Tarocchi.
which then form the alphabetical hierarchy, in French:
carreaux, coeurs, piques, trefles.
... which looks rather as a accidental result.
And from France the hierarchy goes to Skat in that form.
Etteilla translates this same hierarchy into tarot suits, using the old equivalences (but for him, high to low, as he doesn't know the "Mantegna" and he's being inventive):
batons, coupes, epees, deniers.
Well, not a order from the "right wheel" (I first understood, that it had such an order).
On your hypothesis, with deniers/denari = carreaux, in order to get from the "Mantegna" to Skat what is required is one turn of your wheel and then its reversal, The substitution by itself gives (leaving epees and batons as "black" to avoid that variable):
black, coupes, carreaux, black
But in Skat carreaux is first, i.e. lowest, followed by coupes. So one turn of the wheel, advancing "carreaux" to the right end, and then a reversal, is needed to get to Skat.
It is possible, but is it reasonable? When, and with what precedents? My alphabetical hypothesis has the precedent of the "Mantegna". It occurs at some point after French suits acquire French names. It reverses with Etteilla, who doesn't know these things. When did your "wheel" start turning? What precedent, early example, or other historically appropriate justification is there for this turn and reversal that resulted in Skat's hierarchy?
As shown, the Ombre-Schafkopf-Skat line agrees, that "black" is high and "red" is low. But somehow there's a deep contrast between Ombre and Schafkop, not completely understood in the moment.
The Austrian Preference line had "red" high and black "low", not agreed in revolutionary Hungary likely for political reasons.
Generally it's stated, that L'Hombre invented the bidding system. I wonder, if that is really true or if such a statement can be possible in our limited state of knowledge.
Atually we have a long time with none or only very few game descriptions. Complex game developments might have died and disappeared without any researcher chance to know about them.
The Schafkopf structure is very simple and easy. It should have existed at the beginning. But it was attacked by "modern trends" (Tarot, Hombre) and so might have been overshadowed by other games, surviving only in lonesome village customs. The Bromme'sche Tarot Gesellschaft (which likely knew a lot of games) was surprized by a card game living in an Erzgebirge village.
If Bohemia was the origin of a lot of early playing customs, the position of an Erzgebirge village close to Bohemia was ideal that old playing customs might have survived there.
The chess village Ströbeck cared for the survival of rules of the Courier chess game, once presented as having a rather far distribution ... Ströbeck's chess riddle possibly explains by the condition, that the near Quedlinburg had been capital for all Germany in the time of the 3 Otto-kings, and Theophanu, Byzantine princess, married Otto II and educated Otto III, her son. And the Byzantine influence of Theophanu possibly caused, that Persian Chess arrived in Northern Europe, first noted in Einsiedeln in the year 997.
The brothers Grimm collected their fairy tale stories in villages near Kassel/Marburg and their results are now world literature, and delivered plots for various movies. Villages often have had the better memories.