Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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Offhand I believe that Court de Gébelin was the first to suggest it.

Ménestrier believed cards to be a French invention (1392), and Tarot a German one. No place for Gypsy theories.

The next writer on playing cards, Gabriel (Father) Daniel, 1720, has heard speculations that cards were known to the Greeks and Romans, but believes them to have been in France only since the 14th century -
Origine du jeu du Piquet, trouvée dans l’Histoire de France

(Memoires pour l’histoire des Sciences & des beaux Arts (Trevoux, May 1720) Article XLII (pp. 934-968))

While reading attentively the History of France, reflections present themselves to the mind on subjects which seem to have no relation with it, but which however, by the combination of certain circumstances, are found to have much. Who would be inclined to think that the game of Piquet shows us one of the most famous reigns of our History; I mean to say that of Charles VII; that the economy of this game, the division of the cards, the different figures depicted on the cards, the manner in which it is played, instruct us with the most wonderful maxims of the State and of war, whose violation had caused all the problems of the Kingdom, in the first years of the Reign of this Prince, as well as during the greater part of that of his predecessor Charles VI, and the observation of which during the later years of the Reign of Charles VII had produced the reestablishment of France, and carried the glory of the Kingdom and the Sovereign as high as they could reach? It is this that I attempting to make clear, or at least very plausible, in this type of dissertation.

In it, I try to show firstly that this game was born in France; secondly, that it was invented during the Reign of Charles VII; thirdly, that this game is symbolic and that it contains a number of instructions for government and war; fourthly, that it makes continual allusion to various circumstances in which Charles VII found himself during his Reign.

I am not examining here whether certain card games which had some resemblance to those of our time were in use among the Greeks and Romans. I keep myself in France, and I say that card games have not been in use for more than four hundred years in the Kingdom; this Era seems to me to have been well proven by Father Menestrier in his Bibliothèque Curieuse.

He demonstrates this by an Ordonnance of King Charles VI, of the year 1391, in which this Prince enumerated the games with which his subjects were then occupied, to the neglect of those which would dispose them to military exercises; he prohibits them under penalty of a fine.

The games of which he speaks in the Ordonnance are the game of dice, the game of checkers, the game of billiards, etc., and he nowhere mentions that of cards, which doubtless, because of the rationale of the Ordonnance, would have been one of the first mentioned, if it had been then in use.

The same Author at the same time places the timing of this game, which was in the year after this Ordonnance, in 1392, and the occasion of its invention. This was the same year that Charles VI went mad, and when the Court applied itself to disperse his melancholy by all kinds of means. On this subject, he cites an account of Charles Poupart, King’s Treasurer, where it is said: to Jacquemin Gringonneur, Painter, for three packs of cards in gold and in different colors, of many signs, to take to the said Lord (King), for his amusement, LVI Parisian sols.

Father Menestrier adds, to confirm his impression, that one sees neither bas-reliefs, nor paintings, nor tapestries before this time where this game is shown, whereas one sees in many of them dice, checkerboards, dicing cups, etc., and that finally our old Romances often of all these games without making the slightest mention of card games, from which he concludes that the game of cards were in no way introduced into France before the Reign of Charles VI. As for the game of Piquet in particular, he does not pinpoint the time, and it is this that we are looking for.
Beneton de Peyrins, 1738, is fairly modern in his theory - China, Middle East, Moors in Spain; but although he also thinks late antique Rome knew playing cards, he doesn't invoke Gypsies to explain their presence -
Dissertation on the origin of games of chance, by Beneton de Peyrins

(published originally in the Mercure of September, 1738; it was reprinted by Leber in Collection des meilleurs dissertations, notices et traités particuliers relatifs a l'histoire de France (Paris 1838) tome X, pp. 201-219)

It has been seen above that all games of chance are expressed the generic term alea; and presently whoever would like to express in Latin the games that operate by means of cards, can only do so by those of folium lusorium aleatorium, which may open the door to the suspicion that the use of these cards is more ancient than hitherto believed, and that they could even have the same antiquity of origin of the dice and knuckle-bones used in other games called lusorium aleatorium. As for me, my sentiment is that cards were known during the decline of the Roman empire, that it was the conquests that had pushed well before into India, which allowed the cards invented by the Chinese to be carried into Syria and Egypt, where they were made with the paper of this latter country, consisting of the plant papyrus; and although that which I am advancing cannot be supported by passages of authors of this time, this silence can be attributed to the paucity of writers who appear in the decline of the Roman empire, and even to the disruption of this empire, which caused the knowledge of many new discoveries which existed during this disruption to be lost. The nations of the north which caused it, being ashamed of their ignorance and barbarity, in order to render these faults less noticeable, seemed to apply themselves to the task of destroying everything that could show a superior genius to theirs, which those they had submitted to had had. This is why these invasions, which caused the almost total loss of sciences and arts, also caused the loss of games of chance; and since it is certain that this was there the cause which made Europe forget the games of Chess and Trictrac, which afterwards came to us again from Asia, that was equally what was able to cause the loss of the memory that cards had been known in Rome.

The Asiatics, who were the first to know cards, distinguished them, in the way we still do, between simple or plain, and figures; on the figures there appeared the pictures of their gods and their heroes, and on the plain, there only appeared hieroglyphic characters, which served in the past as writing. These are the same characters which still mark our plain cards up to the present: the Chinese had, in hieroglyphs proper to express their thoughts, figures of hearts, pikes, tiles and flowers somewhat similar to clovers. The changes that time would bring to these figures is a little thing. The Romans preserved these plain cards in their own figures, and to the court cards they joined others bearing portraits of some of their principal gods, emperors and empresses, making them appear in triumphal chariots, from which come the terms triomphe, imperial and vole, in common use in playing cards as the names of two ancient games, and to express the complete victory that one can achieve with these cards, in imitation of these total victories that submitted an entire nation to the Romans, and made the general who achieved them deserve the triumph.

It must not be doubted that the Saracens and Greeks of the Late Empire knew card games, but they used them less than Chess and dice. We owe to the Moors who conquered Spain the game of Ombre; they fixed the suits visible on the cards, which are two reds and two blacks, in imitation of the colours by which they distinguished themselves in combat, divided into quadrilles in the gallant tournaments which they held in the honour of ladies; and the French who travelled in the East and in Spain since the twelfth century, recounted the knowledge of these cards and the games they played with them. But because, up to the time of Charles VI, they were too busy, as much with foreign wars as those arising within the country, besides the fact that games for the exercise of the body, such as tournaments, carrousels, and military and gallant parades amused them enough, when some interval of peace gave them the leisure to dream of diversions; and as it is only to the extent that the taste for exercises is lost, that that for games of chance increases, one must thus go down to the reign of Charles VI, and even later, to see the use of cards become well-established. It was then that they were given their form, and that they were placed in the arrangement that they have. For this, the characters or markings which are seen on the plain cards began to multiply, which was judged necessary, in order to give them different values, and, thereby, to make them useful to more kinds of games. As for the figured cards, the figures of the gods of paganism which may have remained were removed; and nevertheless, in order to preserve by means of figures which ones it was resolved to put there, the memory that these cards had been in use among all the most famous nations, the portraits of the greatest Kings and Captains were depicted, and the most illustrious Queens or women who had appeared in these nations; it is because of this that there are seen the David, Rachel, Esther and Judith of the Hebrews; the Pallas and Hector of Troy; the Alexander of the Greeks; the Caesar of the Romans; the Charlemagne of the French and Germans; the Argine of the English; the Ogier of the Danes; and for Potou and la Hire, these are two brave French captains who lived at the time when the arrangement of which I speak was given to the cards.
Bullet, 1757, adds the notion that cards need paper, and that since in Europe paper is unknown before the 12th century, cards can't have been invented before this time -

"I should add that cardboard, and consequently cards, could not have been invented before rag-paper, which we ourselves use today, was known in Europe; and the usage of this paper among us cannot be placed earlier than the twelfth century : cards therefore cannot be placed earlier than this time."

Recherches historiques sur les cartes à jouer (Lyon, J. Deville, 1757)

He follows Ménestrier in thinking that cards are a European invention. No place for Gypsies to have carried them around.

Finally the Abbé Rive, 1780, after dismissing previous authors' claims for France, Italy and Germany (let alone ancient Lydia), places the invention of cards in Spain in the 14th century. Court de Gébelin follows this, but since he believe cards to have come from Tarot, and Tarot from Egypt, he attributes the survival of Tarot, and therefore the original playing cards, to the (E)Gyp(t)sies.

I don't think Gypsies would have played a role in any other theory before Court de Gébelin, a priori.
Image

Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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Praetorius in c. 1660 had "Zigeuner" (gypsy) cards, but it were teaching cards with chiromancy hands. Not connected to the idea, that Gypsies had brought with them playing cards.
titled:
"Eine Zigeunerkarte oder Chiromantienspiel"

Gütle around 1798 repeated something similar, possibly based on the older Praetorius work. "Zigeunerkarte".

There's a new hype in Germany: modern "Zigeunerkarten" ... this are not Chiromancy hands.

https://www.google.de/search?q=zigeuner ... 20&bih=860
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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Huck wrote:Praetorius in c. 1660 had "Zigeuner" (gypsy) cards, but it were teaching cards with chiromancy hands. Not connected to the idea, that Gypsies had brought with them playing cards.
titled:
"Eine Zigeunerkarte oder Chiromantienspiel"

Gütle around 1798 repeated something similar, possibly based on the older Praetorius work. "Zigeunerkarte".
Gypsies were known always for palm-reading, so putting palm-reading instructions on a pack of cards and calling it "Gypsy cards" is perfectly logical.

He did a lot of other subjects into cards, as I can see from this thread
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=646&start=10

Dummett conclusively established that Gypsies (actual Romany people) have never been known to be card readers, and only adopt the practice when they are expected to do so, and can profit, by reason of their reputation as fortune-tellers.

He notes that even Breitkopf, Court de Gébelin's first critic, contradicted the latter's offhand claim (on the basis that playing cards are known in Europe before Gypsies are).
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Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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In the thread ...
"Pre-1770 Etteilla, from accounts in 1791 & 1797"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1152&start=10#p18609
(the theme has a few posts)
... it was talked about a book "Barbanaa ou le grand Bohemien" (in 1772, very early phase of cartomancy), which seems to have given a method of divination with cards. It is said, that it was a French translation from a German source (the source is unknown).

Bohemien might have had in this context the meaning "Gypsy".
A smaller study of contemporary German sources (search for "Zigeuner") didn't lead to something with playing cards, but the the connection between "Zigeuner" and truthsaying" is rather common in this time period (around 1770).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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See for definitions about Bohémien - from Bohemia or vagabond=bohème
http://dicocitations.lemonde.fr/definit ... _ienne.php

As "vagabonds"= nomades - could apply to Gypsies and practice of fortune telling

Littré :
Définition du mot Bohème Ou Bohémien, Ienne : - Nom de bandes vagabondes, sans domicile fixe, sans métier régulier, et se mêlant souvent de dire la bonne aventure : on leur donne aussi le nom d'Égyptiens et de Zingaris (voy. ).

Added now

Dictionnaire de l Académie Française 1790 (?) pour
BOHEMIEN, BOHEMIENNE

"Ces mots ne sont pas mis ici pour désigner les peuples de cette partie de l Allemagne qu on appelle Bohème mais seulement pour désigner une espèce de vagabonds qui courent le pays disant la bonne aventure et dérobant avec adresse."Une troupe de Bohémiens"

Note 3
https://books.google.fr/books?id=lpYXAg ... 90&f=false
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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Well, they translated from German.
So tell me the German equivalent for "Bohemien" in 1772 to find the original title of the work.

I referenced this article to ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1152&start=10#p18609

There I wrote:
Image


...

Curious things:

Barbanna is a river name often mentioned in old Roman times in Illyria. I was not able to identify, which river it is. Maybe it's this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drin_(river)

Lezhe is a city, where hero Skanderbeg was buried, earlier it had the name Alessio (which is still the Italian name). A very small river "Drin" runs at Google maps to Lezhe/Alessio, possibly with some dependency on the big river "Drin".
Rivers occasionally change their course in a dramatic manner.
https://www.google.de/maps/place/Lezh%C ... 19.6460758

Lezhe is in Northern Albania. Albania has a lot of Bohemiens (Gypsies, Zigeuner, Roma; modern estimations calculate c. 4% of the population nowadays). The state of 1772 is difficult to estimate.

The book title is "Barbannaa, ou le grand Bohémien". Somehow the book competes with Etteilla, who said, that an Alexis (French form of Alessio) had some initiating effects on him.
In an article of Thomas Brown in "Pseudodoxia epidemica : or, enquiries into very many received tenents, and commonly presumed truths" (published 1658) ...
https://archive.org/stream/pseudodoxiae ... 4/mode/2up

Image


Image


... which is quoted by the German dictionary Zedler c. 1740, the language of the Zigeuner is "sclavonisch" (Sclavonia = nowadays a region around Zagreb). Zagreb isn't too far from the river Barbanna.

It's said, that the Gypsies appeared in Germany in 1414 in the time of German emperor Sigismondo. But Sigismondo wasn't only Emperor, he was called also King of Hungary. And Hungary was bigger than today. For Louis I the Great Hungary looked like this:



The Hungary of Sigismondo was smaller than that of Louis, but it is rather obvious, why just in the time of Sigismondo some Gypsies had opportunity to enter Germany.

*******
He notes that even Breitkopf, Court de Gébelin's first critic, contradicted the latter's offhand claim (on the basis that playing cards are known in Europe before Gypsies are.
We don't talk about the origin of playing cards here, but about cartomancy and its beginnings. "Zigeuner" were generally bought together with future-telling, this was a common place, at least in Germany in the 1760s. Evidence for divination with cards is missing, however. "Barbanaa" might be a begin of this missing evidence.

*********



Hungarian female Fool according the Hofämterspiel 1455.
Last edited by Huck on 20 Jan 2017, 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Question: Oldest source for "Gypies etc. "

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http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bohemian
bohemian (n.) Look up bohemian at Dictionary.com
"a gypsy of society," 1848, from French bohemién (1550s), from the country name (see Bohemia). The modern sense is perhaps from the use of this country name since 15c. in French for "gypsy" (they were wrongly believed to have come from there, though their first appearance in Western Europe may have been directly from there), or from association with 15c. Bohemian heretics. It was popularized by Henri Murger's 1845 story collection "Scenes de la Vie de Boheme," the basis of Puccini's "La Bohème." Used in English 1848 in Thackary's "Vanity Fair."
The term 'Bohemian' has come to be very commonly accepted in our day as the description of a certain kind of literary gipsey, no matter in what language he speaks, or what city he inhabits .... A Bohemian is simply an artist or littérateur who, consciously or unconsciously, secedes from conventionality in life and in art. ["Westminster Review," 1862]
Grimm's Wörterbuch (good for old German words)
ein bekannter dichter des 15 jh. führte den namen Michael Beheim. im 16 jh. bildete man den pl. Böhemer, z. b. sch. und ernst cap. 518. die Franzosen nannten das aus dem osten einwandernde fremde volk der Zigeuner, dessen abkunft sie nicht wusten, Bohémiens:
da tritt ein braun Bohemerweib mich an
mit diesem helm.
Schiller 450a,
It says, that this is a French misunderstanding. The book project was started in 1838.

I think, perhaps the error started with the idea, that emperor Sigismund was from the Luxemburger dynasty, and this had the title King of Bohemia for some longer time. Sigismondo was also king of Bohemia (1420-37), after his brother Wenzel had died. King of Hungary he was since 1387, and king of Rome since 1411, emperor since 1433. And he was born in Bohemia.

I learned the French word Bohemien as something, which had nothing to do with Bohemia (Böhmen) in Germany. I had somehow the idea, that it was connected to Night Life in Paris or so.
Likely cause of this .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZDPYajuvsY

Böhmen was also first a foreign word, as we learned and knew Tschechoslowakei.
Bohemien wasn't a German word to me. It was foreign.

I have the book Papus: Tarot der Zigeuner ... Original title: Le Tarot de Bohemiens.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
cron