Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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Nathaniel wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 11:57 What follows is my reply to Mike and Ross from the discussion here: viewtopic.php?p=25887#p25887

I am still very doubtful of the wisdom of sharing what is still a work in progress, and even more so of attempting to present my findings in abbreviated form, without laying out all the evidence in full detail and in a properly argued manner. I fully expect everything I say here to be cursorily dismissed by many readers. But I also feel that Ross has a point—who knows when or even if I will ever find the time to present this material properly? So here it is, for what it's worth...
Thank you for sharing a summary of your theory, Nathaniel. It's really nice to see what you're doing.

I had never looked into the Robertets. Thanks for insisting on this thread of Petrarch's Trionfi in France.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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Yes, many thanks, Nathaniel. I especially liked it that you gave links. In 2013 I wrote a lot about the Master of the Vitae Imperatorum's illustrations of Petrarch but never had a link to the 1440-1450 manuscript itself. That was very nice to have (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.3943/0336; perhaps someone can provide a link to his second set of Trionfi illustrations, too.) [That sentence corrected from "second deck", not what I meant to be asking about, as Ross correctly infers in the next post.]

The similarity of some Petrarch illustrations to the cards, however, still only shows that people did associate the two (as well as, about which later, to Boccaccio) at the times and places the Petrarch illustrations were made. Since this time may have been after the invention of the cards, it does not count, without something else predating the cards, as evidence that the cards themselves were made with Petrarch in mind.

The name "trionfi" for the game is different, since it certainly does post-date Petrarch's use of the term. Likewise the names "Death" and "Love," which Petrarch used in his Trionfi titles.

This is where the Master of the Vitae Imperatorum comes in. The detail of the shield, from Petrarch's "Triumph of Pudicizia," appears in both the CY Chariot card and the Master's "Triumph of Pudicizia."
Barb.lat.3943 DigiVatLib166v.png Barb.lat.3943 DigiVatLib166v.png Viewed 2320 times 198.66 KiB
For Fame, the Master gives us a lady with a sword in her right hand and a book in her right. This fits Boccaccio's description of Wisdom in Amorosa Visione (IV.28-29); his Fame has a sword and a "golden apple."
Barb.lat.3943 DigiVatLib177r.png Barb.lat.3943 DigiVatLib177r.png Viewed 2320 times 184.08 KiB
In Petrarch, the sword and the book do not correspond to anything in his visual description of the personification, but do to his two classes of people following in Fame's train, military and writers. The CY, for its part, has a trumpet in her right hand and a crown in her left. This is another way of representing Fama. To be sure, there is such a thing as eternal fame, but I see nothing on the card to indicate that. The trumpet, when held by a feminine personification, was an attribute of temporal fame, at least in Petrarch's Lombardy and Padua. Petrarch illustrations for Eternity had God the Father, God the Son, and/or Christian-looking angels and saints, for example in that of our Master (last below).

The Master's Triumph of Time has four white horses and rays around the allegorical figure in the card. Although rays are found on other triumphs in this manuscript, and yes, they could mark of a personification of Time, Petrarch uses some rather specific images. His Triumph of Time opens with the sun, "begirt with rays," driving "four good steeds" (https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... age=V-I.en). What we see on the illumination is four white horses, corresponding to those of the sun, as representing Day. Time's horses were properly two white and two dark, for day and night (one of the French decks shows this alternation). Needless to say, sine early decks did have a Sun card. As cosmic time, the card would naturally be one of the higher cards of the trump sequence, moved before Death when it became the Old Man, or human time.
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Petrarch does speak of an old man in the Triumph of Time, namely himself, with regard to the fleetness of time: "This morn I was a child, and now am old." And it is certainly true that the many different ways of representing the old man/Time - with a stick, crutches, an hourglass - are found in both the illustrations and the decks. The common denominator is old men, reflected also in the titles "Il Vecchio," the Old Man, and "Il Gobbo," the Hunchback.

Petrarch's "Triumph of Eternity" does mention the Last Judgment, toward the end. Otherwise, the distinguishing feature, besides the presence of Laura, is the lack of motion. All motion is change, and Eternity is changeless. The Master's illustration is rather static. It might be that Laura is ascending to heaven.

In a moralizing deck, the Last Judgment - with its threat of damnation (also mentioned in Petrarch's "Trumph of Eternity") - is a more vivid suggestion of Eternity than some post-Judgment timeless idyll. I have a hard time accepting that the CY World card depicts Eternity, in part because of who is at the top of the card: not God the Father or God the Son, but the Roman Fama, holding her trumpet and a crown. And below her is certainly not the world remade in timeless form, but Filippo's Lombardy after the conquest of Genoa, filled with suggestions of motion. The men in the rowboat seem particularly this-worldly. This is not to say that the goddess above it does not find this world good. Its goodness speaks in favor of a favorable Judgment for the knight in the center. That there are also trumpeter-angels on the Judgment card will give Minchiate later a reason to put "Fama" on its Trombe card (contrasting with the Fama on the Chariot card), similarly looking down on a this-worldly scene. But by then any association to Petrarch has been lost.

Admittedly, the Master of the Vitae Imperatorum also has a this-worldly scene at the bottom of his illustration. Petrarch does not deny this-worldly forms in Eternity. Whether it is already changeless is hard to say, but there are no suggestions of motion, except perhaps the ascension of Laura to heaven - unlike what is on the CY World card.
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Laura might be in the in-between world of the angels,the "Primum Mobile," first moved, as opposed to the Prima Causa, the "unmoved mover," at the top. In the CY, the knight's Fama may well be eternal, too, but the only ascent scene is on the Judgment card, proclaiming "rise to judgment".

Added Sept. 21: I left out Death from my images from the Trionfi images in Vat.Barb.Lat.3943. It is notable for its bowman but more interestingly the three fates below him, who become the whole image for Robertet, although by the time of this ms. there might have already been other sources closer in time and place to Robertet, such as a tapestry now at the V & A.
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Added Nov. 21: I also left out Love
Image
Last edited by mikeh on 21 Nov 2023, 22:43, edited 10 times in total.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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mikeh wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 04:49 In 2013 I wrote a lot about the Master of the Vitae Imperatorum's illustrations of Petrarch but never had a link to the manuscript itself. That was very nice to have (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.3943/0336; perhaps someone can provide a link to his second deck, too.)
Yes, I've never come across a second one attributed to this master either. All I know is Barb. lat. 3943.
This is the only one attributed to him listed in "Petrarca Illustrato" here:
http://petrarcaillustrato.it/index.php/ ... utore.html

They may not give all attributions ever, though. And for Barb. lat. 3943 they only note the Rerum vulgarium fragmenta (Canzoniere). They don't say that the Trionfi are in that manuscript.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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mikeh wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 04:49 I have a hard time accepting that the CY World card depicts Eternity, in part because of who is at the top of the card: not God the Father or God the Son, but the Roman Fama, holding her trumpet and a crown. And below her is certainly not the world remade in timeless form, but Filippo's Lombardy after the conquest of Genoa, filled with suggestions of motion. The men in the rowboat seem particularly this-worldly. This is not to say that the goddess above it does not find this world good. Its goodness speaks in favor of a favorable Judgment for the knight in the center. That there are also trumpeter-angels on the Judgment card will give Minchiate later a reason to put "Fama" on its Trombe card (contrasting with the Fama on the Chariot card), similarly looking down on a this-worldly scene. But by then any association to Petrarch has been lost.

I'll leave out my insistence that the card reflects prudence (more specifically, the "fame of the prudent ruler", depicted on horseback in his dominion
- just received in the form of Cremona by Sforza, where his wedding will take place - below the allegorical fama/prudence figure), and merely be descriptive of the CY "World" card here...the critical detail:
Image

The men in the rowboat are both worldly and "other-worldly" because they are arguably monks/prelates, interceding between the woman on the bank and receiving the arriving knight/consort, thus keeping decorum and highlighting chastity. The hooded cowl of the rowing monk's robe matches that of two monks sitting besides chapels/monasteries in a Visconti Hours leaf (see upper right, above), oddly near a body of water like the kneeling woman. Also one holds a book, which is arguably a bible or missal (that could be used in the forthcoming wedding in Cremona).

The woman kneeling on the shore with bowed head and wide decolletage matches the attitude and dress of the virtues on Giangalleazzo's investiture manuscript (see above), thus clearly a kneeling woman. Again, directly between her and the approaching knight are the monks in a boat, being rowed in the direction of the knight to receive him (embarking or disembarking knights litter Bembo's Lancelot manuscript drawings). Moreover, Bianca is typically shown in red, most notably in her betrothal manuscript illumination, which the CY "World" would be close to in time:
!!!bianca in red.jpg !!!bianca in red.jpg Viewed 2251 times 87.29 KiB
Why is the woman "fishing"? Apart from any Arthurian legend allusions (Fisher King, etc.), the rod and tackle allude to a Visconti impresa: the firebrand with water bucket(s). The line from the rod does not simply disappear into the water but terminates in in a round floating object with a rim - arguably a bucket. The rod in turn would pay homage to the flaming brand from which are hanging buckets (all with distinct rims, like the bucket in the CY card), as here in this relief:
!!!Visconti imprese - brand-bucket and biscione.jpg !!!Visconti imprese - brand-bucket and biscione.jpg Viewed 2251 times 82.42 KiB

The relief above combines the dominant Visconti impresa of the biscione with the brand/buckets, and the CY "World" card cleverly does the same, but separates them by placing the man-devouring serpent on the knight's pennant. The paint is badly abraded across this card, especially on the pennant (which is tiny as a miniature within a miniature), but given everything thing we know about Visconti it has to be the biscione - the CY detail alongside a colored "restoration" version, with a Visconti biscione showing the tell-tale circle formed by the coiling serpent body:
!!!CY World penant.jpg !!!CY World penant.jpg Viewed 2251 times 58.8 KiB

All of this is worldly, but shot through with the divine, with bon droyt.

At all events, there is no direct parallel with Petrarch's trionfi - iconic elements (sometimes more than once in the CY: chastity is connoted in both the "Chariot" and in the "World" here) have been utilized, but not CY is no way limited to Petrarch's schema, which is patently obvious given at least 14 subjects.

Phaeded
Last edited by Phaeded on 30 Jun 2023, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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Interesting analysis of the rowboat, Phaeded. My concern was to argue against the card as a Petrarchan Triumph of Eternity, and for its being a Triumph of Fame. Your analysis would seem to support that. I meant the rowboat as an example of motion, as opposed to the post-Judgment world of stasis envisioned by Petrarch. As such, the card appropriately precedes Judgment in the sequence. (I know that you are not concerned about order, but for Nathaniel and me, order is important.)

What makes it a Triumph of this-worldly Fame is first, the lady on top, with her trumpet - even if Petrarch did not mention a trumpet, it was a conventional attribute of Fama - and second, that the object of her attention is the knight in the middle, probably holding a Visconti banner, thus a military man representing the Visconti if not a member of the Visconti dynasty himself: Petrarch's "Triumph of Fame" was devoted to military heroes, statesmen, and writers. The armor suggests military, the crown the lady holds suggests statesman. These categories of fame are not unique to Petrarch, assuredly. But they and the lady's trumpet still suggest a triumph of fame.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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(I have updated the post below to clarify the difference between my scenarios 1 and 3. It seems I never manage to communicate clearly in my first or even second draft, it always takes me one or two more rounds of correction, at least... - July 29, 2023)
Ross Caldwell wrote: 23 Jun 2023, 20:34 Thank you for sharing a summary of your theory, Nathaniel. It's really nice to see what you're doing.
Thanks Ross. Unfortunately, it's no longer quite "what I'm doing"... I have finally completed the article on Venetian cards that I was working on frenetically, but that has turned into only Part 1 of what is going to be at least three parts, and very likely four, which will occupy me for the best part of a year, I think. So the Petrarchan project is on hold for a while.

But I do now have enough time to briefly follow up on the discussion here, which I feel the need to do because it seems that the significance of what I wrote may have been overlooked. For instance, Mike and yourself have mentioned the other Trionfi manuscript containing illustrations by the Master of the Vitae Imperatorum. This is ms. Barb.lat.3954, also in the Vatican. But, like the illuminations in the other manuscript illustrated by the Master, its images are not of enormous interest in themselves; they simply serve as an example to demonstrate the highly variable and non-standardized nature of Trionfi illustrations outside of Florence in general and in Milan in particular.

More importantly, I get the impression that Mike and others are not grasping the full implications of the Robertet images:
mikeh wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 04:49 The similarity of some Petrarch illustrations to the cards, however, still only shows that people did associate the two (as well as, about which later, to Boccaccio) at the times and places the Petrarch illustrations were made. Since this time may have been after the invention of the cards, it does not count, without something else predating the cards, as evidence that the cards themselves were made with Petrarch in mind.
There are two points to make here:

First, if the Trionfi deck was, as I increasingly think likely, the first ever attempt at illustration of the full cycle of all six Trionfi, or was at least created not long after the first such illustration, then there might not be much that predates it that could unequivocally be linked to both the deck and the poems. For example, the VdM Death card—which must be similar to the original Death card from which all others descend (because only the Milanese tradition diverged from it, by taking Death off his horse)—is quite different from nearly all later illustrations of that Petrarchan Triumph, but it is the way that triumphant Death was very often depicted in northern Italy throughout the previous several decades.

In other words, we should not be surprised to find iconography in the tarot depictions of the six Petrarchan subjects which is not found in most or even any other illustrations of those subjects, because the tarot depictions must have been created very early, quite possibly before any other attempts to illustrate the full cycle.

In cases where there was a strong, well-established earlier tradition for depicting the subjects in question (as in the cases of Love and Death), the tarot cards evidently followed earlier traditions. But where the existing iconographic tradition was not so strong or established as to constitute a near-universal standard model (as in the cases of Time, Fame, and Chastity) or was more or less completely non-existent (in the case of Eternity), the designers of the tarot cards were more innovative. Many of their innovations were simply not followed by those who came after, who had their own ideas and preferences—and not just for these less-established subjects, but even for Death, despite the long-standing iconographic tradition in that case.

Second, and more importantly: the Robertet Eternity is remarkably similar to the woman on VdM World, our earliest surviving example of that card by far (and which, as I said before, must be very similar to the proto-World card from which all later World cards are descended). As far as I can see, there are only four possible explanations for this similarity:

1. An early tarot World card existed that resembled the VdM card, but was not intended to depict Petrarch's Eternity, and yet someone was nevertheless inspired by it to depict Eternity in a similar way in illustrations of the Trionfi cycle, such as the Robertet images.
This is exceedingly unlikely, because the vast majority of the illustrations of Eternity in the 1440s did not look like this at all; in particular, and most crucially, they never depicted Eternity as an anthropomorphic allegorical figure (unlike their depictions of all five of the other Triumphs). So it is very hard to imagine someone looking at a playing-card that was not originally meant to depict Eternity, and which looked almost entirely unlike the other depictions of Eternity, and nevertheless thinking to themselves, "why, that reminds me of Petrarch's Eternity, we should illustrate it like that." This scenario is so implausible that it can be safely dismissed.

2. Someone was inspired by an illustration like the Robertet Eternity to create a World card like the VdM one.
This would allow the possibility that there was a previous World card that was not intended to represent Eternity, but it nevertheless would imply the existence of a tarot deck structured around the six Petrarchan Trionfi, because it is very hard to imagine any other reason why someone would add an image modelled on the Triumph of Eternity to a deck named Trionfi. And because all subsequent World cards appear to have been descended from one like the VdM World, and all subsequent tarot decks were called Trionfi (for several decades anyway), it would follow that all those subsequent decks must be descended from one structured around the six Petrarchan Trionfi.

3. The Robertet image is ultimately derived (most likely via a series of intermediate stages) from an image of Eternity like the one on the VdM World card, and quite possibly from an actual World card in some early Trionfi deck, which was intended as a depiction of Petrarch's Triumph of Eternity.
Like 2 above, this too would imply that the Trionfi deck was originally based around Petrarch's poems of the same name. 3 seems to me considerably more likely than 2, partly because it is much easier to imagine the Trionfi deck being based on the Petrarchan cycle from the beginning rather than having some other origin and then being repurposed (a hypothesis for which there is moreover no evidence ), and partly because it is easier to imagine the VdM World image evolving into the Robertet image than the reverse. This is because it is the Robertet image which seems more "correct" and "logical": we see Eternity holding the palm and crown symbolizing martyrdom, which fits well with the idea of eternal life in heaven. The VdM image, with the trumpet of fame instead of the palm, is rather more unusual and less "logical". It is more likely that someone would have "corrected" the strange trumpet by replacing it with the more obvious palm, than that someone would replace the palm with the idiosyncratic choice of the trumpet. The position of the second crown in the images reinforces this impression: it is easier to imagine a first image showing the woman sitting or standing on the crown and then someone "correcting" it by moving the crown to the more obvious and "logical" position on her head, rather than it starting on her head and someone moving it to the unusual position underneath her.
(This is the same reasoning as that which tells us that the trump order with World highest is more likely to be the original order than the trump order with Angel/Judgment highest, because it is more "logical" to have the Last Judgment last than to have the World last—so it is more likely that someone "corrected" the latter to the former than vice versa.)

4. The Robertet image and the VdM image came into being entirely independently, and it is simply a coincidence that they bear a striking resemblance to each other.
This seems to be what Mike is thinking, although I might be mistaken in that: they coincidentally resembled each other, and then someone just drew an association between the two. However, I think we can rule this out because of the many significant features that the other Robertet images share with tarot cards from the early Milanese tradition, as I argued in my earlier post above. These shared features establish enough iconographic links between the images in this manuscript and those early tarot cards to eliminate any possibility of mere coincidence.

So the only plausible explanations are 2 and 3, and so we must conclude that the earliest World card from which all others descend was designed to depict an anthropomorphic personification of Petrarch's Eternity.
The trumpet Mike thinks is a symbol of worldly fame must have been intended, as Hurst argued, to symbolize heavenly fame, which is mentioned in Petrarch's poem. This conclusion is not based on any feature of the image itself, but rather the resemblance of the entire image to the Robertet image (confirmed by the fact that the card was the highest trump in both Milan and Ferrara, something that is otherwise very difficult to explain).

Many other conclusions then follow inexorably from that: the original sequence must have included not only Eternity, Time, Death, Chastity, and Love, but also Fame, which we see depicted fairly clearly on the Issy Chariot card and, it seems, also on the Visconti-Sforza card (with reference to BnF ms. Français 22541); this original sequence would have placed those subjects in their correct Petrarchan order, with World/Eternity highest; and therefore various major changes must have been made to the proto-Trionfi deck to arrive at the "standard" set which spread far and wide. The Florentine sequence cannot have been the original sequence of the earliest "Trionfi" deck, nor its subjects the original set of subjects. And this, plus a comparison the surviving cards and Trionfi illustrations from Florence and Milan, makes Florence less likely as the place of origin of that earliest deck, while the court of Filippo Maria Visconti becomes more likely.

Various things become much easier to explain (not just the World being highest trump in Milan and Ferrara): such as the presence of apparently all seven virtues in the VdM deck, together with the presence of Angel/Judgment as a seventh Petrarchan card. Six trumps being far too few, the seven virtues were probably added to expand the trump sequence to enough of a length to create an enjoyable game, with the seventh Petrarchan card being added to create numerical symmetry with the virtues (and probably also to bring the number of cards in the trump suit to the same number as in the other suits). The later addition of the Sun, Moon, and Star also becomes easy to explain, as mnemonically simpler replacements for the theological virtues after the Petrarchan association was lost, depriving the World card of its meaning as Eternity.

There are still many parts of the jigsaw puzzle yet to be completed, of course. But a major part of the early picture is now clear.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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Thanks for the link to the other Master of the Vitae Imperatorium series, Nathaniel. Wonderful, in fact, for me something like a missing link. They seem to me as least as relevant to our discussion as Robertet, given their time and place, Lombardy mid-15th century. Here they are:
Image


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
It strikes me that Love, Death, Time, and Eternity are similar to Love, Death, Old Man, and Judgment/Angel in the PMB/Colleoni-Baglioni. Cupid is standing upright, not horizontal as in other versions; Death has a bow and arrows; Time is an old man with an hourglass; Eternity, unusually, has the old, bearded God the Father, like the PMB Judgment/Angel card. All this seems to me no coincidence. As for Fama, it depends on what PMB card you have in mind. She is rather similar to the PMB card usually identified as Justice, only with a book instead of the scales that can appear with either personification. (See here Huck's post at viewtopic.php?p=17682#p17682). Pudicizia is different, admittedly. But the point remains. Especially for Eternity=Judgment. Huck: note that this result, an Eternity similar to the PMB Judgment card, leaves Fama for another card, and the figure most similar to the miniature is the one you suggest, that usually interpreted as Justice. In other words, these miniatures support the 5x14 theory for this PMB deck. However, the Chariot-lady also has attributes of Fama (orb, wings on her horses), and Fama with scales is not typical, especially in mid-century Lombardy, where I don't know it. On the other hand, an orb is somewhat similar to a chain, as indicating dominion, and perhaps is more fitting for a noble lady famous for her Pudicizia.

Now to the points in your post, Nathaniel.

What defines a World card, it seems to me, is the presence of a World, i.e. something roundish with features of a world in it. A world could be either pre- or post-judgment. Likewise, trumpets signal both eternal and worldly fame. Added a few days later, in red: Trumpets spread Fame over the world, or at least part of it. Boccaccio's "Fame of Worldly Folk" emphasized the world-wide aspect of Fame by having her enclosed in a circle, from below her feet to above her head. Because of the ambiguity of the image of the roundish world, images of Eternity usually have a Christ or the Father above, or else a very peaceful, even lifeless (in the sense of life in this world) scene below. With Tarot cards, it is frequently hard to tell which it is, perhaps intentionally so, so that, for example, a Ferrarese visiting nearby Bologna could comfortably and without unfair advantage play in Bologna with his Ferrarese deck, or so that one can see it either as a second Fame or as a second Eternity, or both, once Pudicizia had been replaced by a Fame before Death.

What distinguishes the World card of the Visconti di Modrone (VdM/CY) is the scene below the lady, with action: ships and a rowboat, in a worldly setting perhaps relating to something that actually happened that earns the knight fame (Francesco's marriage, per Phaeded, or rescue of Piccinino, per Huck, or something having to do with Filippo or another Visconti). Petrarch's Eternity was a world without past or future, motionless.

The Ferrarese World card is different, although subtly so: no motion indicated, just a world. The moving of World to last is precisely a desire to show the heavenly world, as seen in the PMB/Colleoni-Baglioni "second artist" - perhaps a Venetian commission, perhaps not - World card: the New Jerusalem, naturally following the Last Judgment. It is like the Florentine illustrations of Petrarch's Eternity, such as Pesellino's, and ambiguous cards like the Charles VI's.

I do not see much relationship between Robertet and the VdM (CY). What do the three fates have to do with the Death card? There is no shield on Robertet's Pudicizia, which is simply that of numerous other representations of that triumph. Cupid is not horizontal. Time's hourglass comes from the ca. 1500 French card, or perhaps the ChVI or PMB, and is a traditional attribute of Father Time, corresponding to old age in Petrarch's poem. Also, none of the CY cards show a personification standing on top of, triumphing over, another personification.

As far as the Robertet's Eternity lady's pose being similar to that of the VdM World lady's, crowning and palm leaves are symbolic of victory, as on the Tarot de Marseille Ace of Swords, taken from a Visconti device, and only secondarily of eternity. Think of the palms of Palm Sunday. Victory fits Fame as well as Eternity. Not exactly coincidence, since we are dealing with an inherited tradition, but not necessarily copying something from the 1440s.

Your discounting of Petrarch illustrations from 1440s and 1450s Milan, precisely the time and place of two tarots there, and instead exalting as truer to Milan of that epoch a set of illustrations from ca. 1500 France, seems to me to need a lot more argument.

On the other hand, I would say that these two manuscripts, Vat. Barb. 3943 and 3954, go a long way toward clinching the case that the Petrarch illuminations do show that six of the earliest cards correspond to the six Petrarchan Trionfi. Even if the Pudicitia of 3954 does not have much correspondence to the Colleoni/PMB Chariot card, that of 3943 does, most closely to the Modrone version, especially the shield.
Last edited by mikeh on 05 Aug 2023, 10:05, edited 6 times in total.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

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Huck: note that this result, an Eternity similar to the PMB Judgment card, leaves Fama for another card, and the one most similar to the miniature is the one you suggest, that usually interpreted as Justice. In other words, these miniatures support the 5x14 theory for this PMB deck.
Thanks ....
I didn't realize, that Nathaniel disguised his link with a "ms. Barb.lat.3954," I searched for Robertet and didn't get the connection.
Yes , true, especially this eternity helps the assumptions about the 5x14-deck.

If I follow this "Barb.lat.3954", I get this page ...
https://petrarch.mml.ox.ac.uk/item/1512
.... titled "Vatican City, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Barb. Lat. 3954"
The "Notes" text of this webpage contains the following sentence: "information unrelated to Petrarch (e.g., fol. 128r: ‘1447 die 27 ap[r]ilis hora se[con]da noctis aduenie[n]te die uene[r]is 28 obijt d[ominus] aloisius de s[anc]to Seuerino i[n] m[edio]l[an]o du[m] hec sc[ri]berem’).
Probably it means, that something was written at 27th April 1447 by an Aloisius of Sancto Severino or similar. I don't find a note of Robertet.

Image

Somehow added at the sidebar. I don't know, what this means for the dating of the text.

I find this name "Aloisius of Sancto Severino" connected with the date 1471 here ....
Catalogue des Livres Imprimez de la Bibliotheque Du Roy 1739
https://books.google.de/books?id=qQYDto ... no&f=false
Probably a text stolen from Milan by the French king.

******************

Added later:
There is another report to the text in Italian language. There it is assumed, that the manuscript was copied in 1447 (and possibly also the picture decorations):
http://www.mirabileweb.it/manuscript-ro ... RDP_214673
datato a. 1447
Note datazione la mano del copista appone a f. 128r, con tale data, il ricordo della morte di Luigi Sanseverino: «1447 die 27 ap(ri)lis | hora s(e)c(un)da noctis adue|nie(n)te die vene(r)is 28, obijt d(ominus) aloisius | de s(an)c(t)o seuerino in m(edio)l(an)o | du(m) hec sc(ri)berem»
automatic translation
dated to. 1447
Notes dating the copyist's hand affixed to f. 128r, with that date, the memory of the death of Luigi Sanseverino:
I'm not sure: Does it mean, Aloysius Luigi Sanseverino (the copying author) died in 1447?
Last edited by Huck on 02 Aug 2023, 12:25, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

89
I don't think that Nathaniel meant to say that somehow Barb.Vat.3954 was connected with Robertet. He only makes a connection between Robertet and the Modrone (a connection I fail to understand, except in the one instance, which isn't enough). He gives links to all three mss. in different posts in this thread.

Note that I have modified the part in bold in my earlier post, to address the issue that the PMB Chariot card might be Fame (Nathaniel's view) and not the lady with the scales and sword. Sword, orb and the wings (on the horses) are attributes of Fame. On the other hand, the orb might be considered a more noble symbol of dominion than a chain, more befitting a noble lady famous for her Pudicizia (avoidance of shame).
Last edited by mikeh on 03 Aug 2023, 02:44, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

90
I just added something ... I personally think, that the correct dating is very important. Is 1447 correct?

Added again ...

I found a Luigi Sanseverino and who died indeed in April 1447 ... it was a condottiero.
https://condottieridiventura.it/luigi-da-san-severino/
1447
Gen. Lombardia Assale un piccolo castello al di là dell’Adda. E’ catturato con alcuni cavalli da soldati usciti per una sortita da Cassano d’Adda.
Apr. Lombardia Muore a Milano dopo una lunga malattia causata da una vecchia ferita.
Last edited by Huck on 02 Aug 2023, 14:34, edited 4 times in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com